Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Look at this 3D-Printer


- It prints with a resolution of 25 microns, that is 40 points on a millimeter or 1816 dpi.
- It prints in in full color.
- It is a desktop device
- It only costs 2.849$.
- It will be available on 1st October 2013.

This is the first 3D Printer I heard of that can print a 28mm miniature in sufficient resolution and in full color for a affordable price. Imagine you could print every model you wanted at your home and it would be pro-painted immediately.

I must admit 2.849$ is not really cheap but its not more then some people pay for a high-end coffee machine, or a well painted space marine army on ebay. Even if is to pricey for most hobbyists it certainly is not for a small business.

To make a 3D mesh and a color skin is not that hard to do. And there will sure be many models of Not Space Marines to load from the net, once this takes of. You could customize everything and make the models and the terrain you really want. Also painting like GD-winner is a skill not given to everyone. To make a skin on the computer is something everyone can do. And of course you can use it not only for miniatures but for everything else.

So what will GW do about it? It may not be a treat now. But as you know, the prices for printers will only go down (while GWs prices only know the opposite direction) and at least when the 7th edition comes around more and more people will have devices like this.

 Bellicist wrote:
So what will GW do about it?

Stick their heads in the sand whilst sending out C&D's.

Other companies might try to adapt to the new technology though.

It will take a while before the 3D scanners and printers, programming knowledge, and materials will pay themselves off. $2800 for the printer alone? A couple hundred squads should do it...

I am all for having a replicator myself. I just might be able to get enough termigaunts for my 5 tervigon list.

They've probably got about 10 or so years to adapt before they get eaten alive by this, presuming they make it that long without something else doing them in.

Eventually I see Games Workshop and other manufacturers becoming a virtual storefront only, selling dxf files for download to some DRM'd, proprietary printing application.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bellicist wrote:
To make a 3D mesh and a color skin is not that hard to do

Sure.

Doing it well, on the other hand...

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
It will take a while before the 3D scanners and printers, programming knowledge, and materials will pay themselves off. $2800 for the printer alone? A couple hundred squads should do it...

Someone with less time and more money could think differently. It may not be cheaper but it is feasible for the first time to print models.
The tradeoff would be that you can change the models to your liking and skip the painting. 3D-programs have become quite easy to use. If you make a poseable model you could easily make a whole squad of different models. Also there are already enough free 3D-models out there that would lend themself for gaming.

There would even be a piracy issue, because some people would surely try to extract models from GWs PC-games and print those.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
It will take a while before the 3D scanners and printers, programming knowledge, and materials will pay themselves off. $2800 for the printer alone? A couple hundred squads should do it...

Well of course. I remember when a Sony DVD player was $700. Now everything has a DVD player built-in. There are even some printers where it's cheaper to just buy another printer than it is to replace the ink when it runs out.

The same will happen with this technology.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
It will take a while before the 3D scanners and printers, programming knowledge, and materials will pay themselves off. $2800 for the printer alone? A couple hundred squads should do it...

Well of course. I remember when a Sony DVD player was $700. Now everything has a DVD player built-in. There are even some printers where it's cheaper to just buy another printer than it is to replace the ink when it runs out.

The same will happen with this technology.

Of course it will in time. However, I still have yet to see a real world example of where a replicating device has killed the market it relates to.

Even digital documentation hasn't killed the print industry.

It'll definitely require GW to re-evalutate their pricing, however.

And, while the printer itself may be a steep up-front cost at $3,000, anyone who has even a little talent should have no problem raising 3 grand via crowdfunding to buy one with only some concept art/renders and maybe a single protoype printed from Shapeways.

I've heard tell of some truly awful kickstarters easily raising in excess of $3,000 in 2 weeks; imagine what could be done with a talented artist and decent stretch goals.

At that point, they can either learn to print the masters in 3d and then recast in resin (a few hundred bucks more to learn) or hell, even outsource it out to Troll Forged or someone like that. It would eat into their bottom line, but the barrier to market is, like, nonexistent now.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
There are even some printers where it's cheaper to just buy another printer than it is to replace the ink when it runs out.

I used to do that. It's actually cheaper still to buy a low end laser printer since the toner lasts forever. You can get a nice Brother wireless laser printer for like $120 now, it pays for itself pretty quickly as compared to buying either new printers or cartridges alone.

No, this will not kill GW. I hope every time a new 3d printer is marketed it doesnt spawn another thread.

The question posed should be more general anyway, why not, will this kill Privateer? The question is always framed in response to GW when in fact this technology really could be a boon or bane to any particular line of miniatures manufacturer depending on how they react.

I can think of many questions that are infinetly more interesting to discuss than "Will this kill/harm/nerf/destroy GW. So many people with GW obsession on this forum need to take a step back from their automatic responses.

I can think of a number of ways that 3d printing could change the industry. Not all of them would be good for traditional manufacturers but likewise not all would be bad either

It also depends on how expensive the material is, it speaks of cartridges, which smells of printer company style price-gouging.

It will take a few years for the prices to do down low enough to make it affordable for your average household, but at that point, GW would be pretty much out of business.

JWhex wrote:The question posed should be more general anyway, why not, will this kill Privateer? The question is always framed in response to GW when in fact this technology really could be a boon or bane to any particular line of miniatures manufacturer depending on how they react.

Well, because Games Workshop is a catchy shorthand for the wargaming industry establishment.

I don't really see any ways that affordable, and ultra-precise 3d printing is going to work out for gee-dubs or really any of the other big companies (if you know why it can be beneficial, by all means, share with the class!) unless and until they become so fast they can produce them on demand; i.e customize a figure in an application and print it in the store in 30 minutes. I haven't yet seen such a device. I've seen some pretty good precision, especially on DLP printing, but not the speed.

But, assuming that resolution comes faster than speed, as it has so far, GWS and the rest of the big companies are in serious danger of being Kodak in a digital camera world.

That being said, while I don't see this being particularly good for the monolithic companies that makes Warhams, it's going to be totally, totally awesome for wargames; a real renaissance awaits us of homebrew sculpts for every possible concept.

Shandara wrote:It also depends on how expensive the material is, it speaks of cartridges, which smells of printer company style price-gouging.

I'm not too worried about that, since if they go that route, their competitors will not and will eat them. People can't make their own razor blades at home, but you CAN build your own printer, and DLP printing is neither conceptually nor mechanically difficult to ship a good, affordable, and reasonably easy to assemble kit for, if not today then surely just a short way down the road - 2 or 3 years I bet.

GW is targeted because GW is the archetype for an antiquated company seemingly unwilling to move forward with progress.

Its hard to see any of the other companies not grasping the new technology and finding ways to adapt and use it to their advantage.

Like in books, same can happen with miniature games, Print on Demand may be a nice way forward for the miniature manufacturers and a nice way to exploit a market demand that cannot be easily filled with present technology.

Would one imagine GW even thinking such thing? personally I would be highly surprised if they did, that's why GW is targeted.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
GW is targeted because GW is the archetype for an antiquated company seemingly unwilling to move forward with progress.

GW still leads the wargaming industry in large plastic kits. They've abandoned metal and are moving to a superior all plastic format (though their stop-gap solution is fairly terrible). They actually embraced digital army books pretty quickly (albeit not in the format some wanted). They've been using 3D sculpting for years.

For all the gak GW cops, they still do all of the things other companies do, they just charge a lot more for them and sometimes the quality is just off (like Finecast), and sometimes it's there but not the format people wanted (the digital codices, despite being iBooks and overpriced, are pretty amazing).

Some of their attitudes are antiquated, like their methods of updating armies and releasing rules updates. Their products themselves aren't.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
GW is targeted because GW is the archetype for an antiquated company seemingly unwilling to move forward with progress.

What are you basing this on?

Are you asking for an itemized list of all the things GWS has done to show it's not interested in new technologies, like an itemized list of Faecebook nukings and such?

Because, I have to say, it smells like a fool's errand from a mile away. It doesn't seem from past experience you're exactly going to be swayed by any argument on this regardless of merit or depth of citation.

The facebook account got deleted because of trolls ruining it., similarly the GW forum. The reason they don't ask for customer feedback is because the customers just scream rage and hatred at them.

 BryllCream wrote:
The facebook account got deleted because of trolls ruining it., similarly the GW forum. The reason they don't ask for customer feedback is because the customers just scream rage and hatred at them.

Yeah... It's weird how when you consistently do stuff that your established customer base doesn't like, some of them get upset about it.

How dare the sheep!

As long as a manufacturer can make miniatures that are cheaper and of higher quality than 3d printers I dont think the roof will cave in on them.

The manufacturers are always going to have the economies of scale in purchasing raw materials and in production in their favor. I dont doubt that the printers will become less expensive but I wager the supplies for them will not be cheap. I do think that the printers will revolutionize what advanced hobbyists with a good income will be able to accomplish.

JWhex wrote:
As long as a manufacturer can make miniatures that are cheaper and of higher quality than 3d printers I dont think the roof will cave in on them.

The manufacturers are always going to have the economies of scale in purchasing raw materials and in production in their favor. I dont doubt that the printers will become less expensive but I wager the supplies for them will not be cheap. I do think that the printers will revolutionize what advanced hobbyists with a good income will be able to accomplish.

Yeah, I think GW are going to have to reconsider their pricing with 3D printing, but I'm not convinced 3D printing will kill GW. At most it will kill their pricing model, which is good for all (unless they decide that their best course of action is to charge the 5 remaining customers $10,000 per Space Marine ).

 BryllCream wrote:
The facebook account got deleted because of trolls ruining it., similarly the GW forum. The reason they don't ask for customer feedback is because the customers just scream rage and hatred at them.

...and here we thought purposefully alienating your customers would be embraced by the community!

 BryllCream wrote:
The facebook account got deleted because of trolls ruining it., similarly the GW forum. The reason they don't ask for customer feedback is because the customers just scream rage and hatred at them.

Complaining =/= trolling.
It was a ton of legitimate complaints that made GW drop the whole 'social media' thing, somehting which most companies don't do. Huge corporations do dumb gak all the time but when people coimplain they pay PR guys to deal with it instead of cut off all direct contact with their customer base, since it is customers that keep those companies afloat.
And not wanting feedback is just stupid, anyone with any experience selling things will tell you that.

Let's not get dragged off topic. This thread is about the impact of ever more affordable and higher resolution 3d printing technology on the business of selling miniatures.

I think the impact will actually be pretty minimal as long as the value is there. Just like how home printers didn't destroy the publishing of novels, if the value for a miniature is there, then people won't print it for logistical reasons.

 frozenwastes wrote:
I think the impact will actually be pretty minimal as long as the value is there. Just like how home printers didn't destroy the publishing of novels, if the value for a miniature is there, then people won't print it for logistical reasons.

I think the impact will come down to how cheaply you can print things, how quickly you can print things, what quality you can print things and whether GW can match that ratio of price:speed:quality.

Nobody sane prints books at home because it's time consuming and by the time you've printed it you've probably spent more money on paper and ink than if you'd just bought the book, then you still have to bind the book as well.

I really have no idea what sort of costs will be involved in printing a miniature. Even if you own a printer (which cost something, even if prices come down, it still costs "something"), you then have to buy the plastic cartridges (I doubt you can just get a slab of plastic or buy the raw monomers and a catalyst and do it yourself, so just like 2D printers your costs are going to be relative to how much you can actually get the printing medium) and then you still have to spend the time printing it and you need to have a printer good enough to compare to the quality of a GW miniature (after all, no one games with green army men even though they are much cheaper).

If GW can maintain themselves at a competitive price, quality and ease of use, I don't think they have to worry.

Court cases like chapterhouse's will decide how much of GW's IP is legit.
If the courts rule most is not protected, expect more people offering models on shapeways and thingyverse.

The floodgates could be opened

 BryllCream wrote:
The facebook account got deleted because of trolls ruining it., similarly the GW forum.

You don't even recall the "Spots the Space Marine" thing, do you? That's why the Facebook page was taken down, as a direct result of that needless debacle.

 loki old fart wrote:
Court cases like chapterhouse's will decide how much of GW's IP is legit.
If the courts rule most is not protected, expect more people offering models on shapeways and thingyverse.

The floodgates could be opened

I think there is a very big difference between GW's complaint of infringement against chapter house and a situation where someone hypothetically makes a 3d scan of a GW or Privateer miniature and distributes it. Certainly going to be some new legal waters to swim in.

Indeed the relevant decisions may eventually come not from the tabletop miniature game industry but some other sector of manufacturing consumer goods. GW may never even have to spend a dime to get the legal decisions needed to protect their IP. Conversely they could get the rug pulled out from under them but I kind of doubt it.

 BryllCream wrote:
The facebook account got deleted because of trolls ruining it., similarly the GW forum. The reason they don't ask for customer feedback is because the customers just scream rage and hatred at them.

I was very active on the gw forums, its wasn't as trolly as you seem to imply. There are Nobz on every site, but the GW forums weren't as bad as some. I remember quite a few interesting discussions.

The loss of them was frankly, a shock. And it came out of nowhere.