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Is it compulsory to use the latest version? What if you would rather not and are happy to take the rough with the smooth?

For tournaments? Yes. For casual? You can do anything your opponent is cool with. I would not be happy about it (particularly if it's to take advantage of something that's been deservedly nerfed) but I'd probably at least give it one shot.

Boniface wrote:
Is it compulsory to use the latest version?

Yes.

What if you would rather not and are happy to take the rough with the smooth?

Then too bad. I'd rather have STR 10 AP 1 lasguns, but I don't get them.

The only way to use an old codex is to ask your opponent to agree on a house rule that it is legal. Obviously they are under no obligation to do so, and you should not act entitled and get upset if they don't want to allow it.

If it's for casual games you can even use previous editions if your friends agree. If it's tournaments or friendly games against other people at your FLGS, yes, you better have the latest version of the codex.

Boniface wrote:
Is it compulsory to use the latest version? What if you would rather not and are happy to take the rough with the smooth?

If playing me? Tough cookies. You don't get to pick and choose which rules you feel like using.

If you're going to use an older Codex, you *must* make sure you have a copy of the last FAQ as it was before changing over to the newer Codex. This of course means keeping on top of rumours to grab it just before it happens... and you'd have to have the foresight to consider that you might still prefer the older Codex amidst all the growing excitement.

 Bludbaff wrote:
For tournaments? Yes.

More precisely - for tournaments that specify that the most recent version of the codex must be used, it would be a yes.

There is no particular reason a tournament couldn't allow an older version to be used, most just choose not to. Although it is sometimes done where a new codex is due for release close to the tournament date... If the TO feels that people will not have had long enough to become familiar with the new codex, they will often require players to continue to use the old one instead.



For casual play, it's up to you and your opponent. Again, no reason it can't work using an older codex, just that in cases where the codex was written for a previous edition you're going to need to tweak things a little to make them work.

 insaniak wrote:
More precisely - for tournaments that specify that the most recent version of the codex must be used, it would be a yes.

Of course it's important to note that, with the occasional exception of a codex released right before the event with no chance for everyone to become familiar with it, virtually all tournaments require the most recent version of the codex. Unless it is explicitly stated that an old codex is permitted you need to use the most recent version of all rules, bringing an old codex and saying "but you didn't say I can't!" is just a good way to get laughed out of the event.

 Peregrine wrote:
Of course it's important to note that, with the occasional exception of a codex released right before the event with no chance for everyone to become familiar with it, virtually all tournaments require the most recent version of the codex.

Absolutely. My point was more that it is a generally applied convention that is ultimately up to the TO, not a world-spanning rule that everyone automatically follows.

There were tournies that, for example, were still allowing Codex: Witch Hunter lists after the White Dwarf Sisters list was released. I believe that some were for a time still also allowing Codex Daemon Hunters after Grey Knights came out, for the sake of those with non-power armoured Inquisition lists.

Unless it is explicitly stated that an old codex is permitted you need to use the most recent version of all rules, bringing an old codex and saying "but you didn't say I can't!" is just a good way to get laughed out of the event.

Yes and no. Given that it is a general assumption, it would obviously be better to check if the codex would be allowed prior to the event, but tournaments should ideally always include a statement in their rules packs covering which codexes are allowed.

You can do whatever you and your friends agree to do. I dont have any problem with people using older books in anything other than a tournament.

Now when it comes to Forge World books: no way, never, not under any circumstance, when hell freezes over, when pigs fly, under no circumstance, over my dead body, etc.

I'd ask that you used the latest codex, even in a friendly game. If I knew you well enough, and you just wanted to try something out in a one-off game, sure.

So to expand slightly there - for those who would rather an opponent uses the latest codex... Why?

Codex Eldar was just released. The previous codex, while not written for 6th edition, seems to have functioned perfectly well up until that point. Why is it suddenly unacceptable just because a newer version has been released?

Maybe because it is generally accepted that you should use the most up to date rules available.

If using old books was the generally accepted practice it would be acceptable(like all the DnD people that still play 3.5)

IIRC, each codex says in the front pages something to the effect of "This codex invalidates all previous versions of this codex" etc...

You are of course free to ignore it, but that's not generally accepted.

 insaniak wrote:
So to expand slightly there - for those who would rather an opponent uses the latest codex... Why?

Codex Eldar was just released. The previous codex, while not written for 6th edition, seems to have functioned perfectly well up until that point. Why is it suddenly unacceptable just because a newer version has been released?

Maybe it's a belief, conscious or not, that if someone wants to use the older books it's because they had some OP rule or unit that they want to use instead of the nerfed newer codex.

Because it is boring and you are stopping the flow of progress.

Now if we use the 3rd edition codex with craft world supplement... Wait for me to find my dcannons for my wraithlords.

 Grey Templar wrote:
IIRC, each codex says in the front pages something to the effect of "This codex invalidates all previous versions of this codex" etc...

I don't recall having ever seen that in any GW book.

 insaniak wrote:
Yes and no. Given that it is a general assumption, it would obviously be better to check if the codex would be allowed prior to the event, but tournaments should ideally always include a statement in their rules packs covering which codexes are allowed.

Well yeah, they should make it explicit. But I don't think you'd have to look very hard to find a tournament where no such statement is made because the TO thinks it's perfectly obvious that you have to use the current rules for your army and can't imagine anyone showing up with the old rules and expecting to play. Therefore in the absence of an explicit statement allowing old rules you should assume that you're using the standard rules of the game, that only the most recent codex is allowed.

So to expand slightly there - for those who would rather an opponent uses the latest codex... Why?

Two reasons:

1) Because unless I know the person well I'm going to suspect that they're doing it because they're abusing something overpowered from the old rules that was fixed in the current rules. I don't really want to have to keep track of all the obsolete rules GW has ever published so I can spot something like this, and I don't really see much benefit to doing so when the current rules almost always work just fine.

2) Because the rules aren't necessarily compatible anymore. Yes, the Eldar codex worked just fine as long as you also used the FAQ, but now that FAQ is gone and the rules will never be updated to match any changes in the core rules. And that's for a codex that was just recently updated, what about someone trying to use the old Necron codex that never had a 6th edition update/FAQ? You'd have to waste time arguing about the rules before you get to start playing, and you'd probably encounter rule disputes in the middle of the game.

So, in short, it's just not worth it.

Because if I brought old Tyrants, I'd have a 161 point Flying Monsterous creature who has Devourers at Strength 5 instead of 6, but re rolls to wound and has BS 4 instead... a fair trade-off for a 99 point decrease.

My point is, old codexes often don't work well with current rules, as no "old" codex was written during the current edition. Even if it "kinda worked" like the old Eldar codex, the current one fits the current rules better. So if you agreed to play a game with 4th edition rules, with the 4th edition Eldar and Nid books that is just fine, but now that you have a 6th book, I wouldn't play against 4th edition Eldar. The obvious exception of release immediately before a Tournament applies, but usually no.

I make an exception for Codex: Witch Hunters. It's virtually impossible to find now, so any new Sisters player is screwed, unless they want to drop a prohibitive amount of money on it. If I were running a tournament, I'd even allow it in competitive play.

In addition, in my local community, we have a house rule that you can continue to use an old codex for up to one month before it becomes the standard. (Actually, in competitive play, you must use the old codex until the one month grace period expires.) This is to give all the army players fair chance to buy it, and non-army players a fair chance to adjust to it.

 Peregrine wrote:
1) Because unless I know the person well I'm going to suspect that they're doing it because they're abusing something overpowered from the old rules that was fixed in the current rules.

Because the newer rules are perfect, and have no space for abuse?


I don't know, maybe you play against very different people to those I encounter, but I see no particular reason to assume that, any more than I judge someone based on the army they choose to use. I would be more likely to assume that they are using the old codex because it is what they built the army with, and they haven't got around to updating yet.

Hell, when 5th edition dropped, I was still playing people using the 4th edition Marine codex for months after the 5th ed book was released, for exactly that reason.

Yes, the Eldar codex worked just fine as long as you also used the FAQ, but now that FAQ is gone ...

Is it?

Nope... I just checked the copy I printed out 3 months ago, and the text appears to all be intact.

And that's for a codex that was just recently updated, what about someone trying to use the old Necron codex that never had a 6th edition update/FAQ? You'd have to waste time arguing about the rules before you get to start playing,

Indeed you would. Although 'arguing' versus 'discussing' is obviously going to depend on your and your opponent's attitude towards the whole process.

... and you'd probably encounter rule disputes in the middle of the game.

... because that never happens using current rules...

I'd have no problem with it unless it was explictly to use some overpowered combo that is no longer viable in the new book.

Then again, I play for fun. Others might play for other reasons which would make taking an out of date codex an issue for them.

 insaniak wrote:
Because the newer rules are perfect, and have no space for abuse?

No, but that's not a good reason to allow house rules to make an army even more overpowered. For example, the new Tau codex nerfed Broadside railguns. You can argue all you like about whether it was a good idea, but it was a deliberate design choice. So if I see someone asking to use the old Tau codex for their nine-Broadside gunline with pre-nerf disruption pods on all the vehicles I don't see any reason to let them do it.

I don't know, maybe you play against very different people to those I encounter, but I see no particular reason to assume that, any more than I judge someone based on the army they choose to use. I would be more likely to assume that they are using the old codex because it is what they built the army with, and they haven't got around to updating yet.

That's just your opponents I think.

Nope... I just checked the copy I printed out 3 months ago, and the text appears to all be intact.

Sure, but now I can't verify that it's the correct FAQ (not one you just made up, or an old FAQ), I have to trust you that you're using the right one. I might be willing to do that if I know you and trust that you won't cheat, but for a random pickup game that's just one more pointless thing to deal with.

because that never happens using current rules...

At least when we're using the current rules everything is theoretically designed to work together, we don't have to invent our own new rules to cover situations where a 3rd edition codex breaks something in 6th edition.

 Peregrine wrote:
Sure, but now I can't verify that it's the correct FAQ (not one you just made up, or an old FAQ), I have to trust you that you're using the right one. I might be willing to do that if I know you and trust that you won't cheat, but for a random pickup game that's just one more pointless thing to deal with.

So when an opponent pulls out an FAQ now, you stop the game to go and look it up and make sure they have the right one?

If it's just a pick up game, is it really that big a deal?

At least when we're using the current rules everything is theoretically designed to work together, we don't have to invent our own new rules to cover situations where a 3rd edition codex breaks something in 6th edition.

No, just the situations where a 4th ed codex breaks something in 6th edition...

They did at least manage to replace the last of the 3rd edition codexes by the end of 5th edition, even if one of those was just with a White Dwarf list that nobody has access to any more...

 insaniak wrote:
So to expand slightly there - for those who would rather an opponent uses the latest codex... Why?

For the same reason I would expect the other person to play using the 6th edition core book. People have a handle on the rules as they stand, and asking them to use a different set of rules for your convenience is rude unless you've specifically arranged to do so.

I'm sure there are some people who don't bother to learn codexes beyond their own, so every game against a different faction is a surprise, but I think most people read through every codex to get a handle on what that army is roughly capable of. Bringing a different edition throws all that knowledge out the window. Either the non-outdated player makes lots of errors due to not knowing the differences, possibly throwing the game to his opponent, or he has to check stats and rules constantly to make sure he's aware of what the opposing army can do, drastically slowing down the game.

Obviously this doesn't apply around the time of a codex change. I played one of my friends with his old Tau codex the week after it was superseded, because he hadn't been able to rework his army yet. I took the opportunity to say goodbye to the 9 Broadsides that were my eternal bane when facing that list. But if I ask some random dude if he wants to play a pickup game, and he asks if it's OK if he uses the 3rd edition Chaos codex, I think I will pass on that game.

 insaniak wrote:
So to expand slightly there - for those who would rather an opponent uses the latest codex... Why?

Codex Eldar was just released. The previous codex, while not written for 6th edition, seems to have functioned perfectly well up until that point. Why is it suddenly unacceptable just because a newer version has been released?

My opinion might be slightly colored by experience, but I'm going to agree with the above post that it feels like you're picking and choosing rules to your advantage. The only two times IRL I dealt with people who refused to use a new rule set were a pair of Iron Warriors players in 4th edition, who were both very irate at having to part with their basilisk + lots o' obliterators CSM list. Which also certainly makes me not miss the days when we'd see 'how do I beat Iron Warriors' threads in the tactical forum a few times a week.

 insaniak wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Sure, but now I can't verify that it's the correct FAQ (not one you just made up, or an old FAQ), I have to trust you that you're using the right one. I might be willing to do that if I know you and trust that you won't cheat, but for a random pickup game that's just one more pointless thing to deal with.

So when an opponent pulls out an FAQ now, you stop the game to go and look it up and make sure they have the right one?

If it's just a pick up game, is it really that big a deal?

I don't bother carrying the paper FAQs in my pickup game bag. I'd rather use my iPad and not get surprised by a newly released FAQ.
Tournaments I use printed ones because I don't have the time to deal with the digital stuff.

 Bludbaff wrote:
..., but I think most people read through every codex to get a handle on what that army is roughly capable of.

That's not been my experience at all. I've been playing this game in various different areas, different clubs and (more recently) tournaments since 1993... and in that time, the people who were actually familiar with anything more than the core rules, their own army, and the couple of armies they fight against the most frequently (so mainly Space Marines) were a very, very small minority of players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bookwrack wrote:
My opinion might be slightly colored by experience, but I'm going to agree with the above post that it feels like you're picking and choosing rules to your advantage.

Er... what...?

Which rules am I picking and choosing, exactly?

 insaniak wrote:
So when an opponent pulls out an FAQ now, you stop the game to go and look it up and make sure they have the right one?

Probably not, but at least I have the option, and it's a lot more likely that I remember the important parts of the FAQ (or at least how the rules work in a general sense) and would spot any major attempts to cheat by inventing a new "ruling". With an old codex and a FAQ that has been gone for a long time that familiarity is also gone, so it's a lot less likely that the cheating would stand out.

If it's just a pick up game, is it really that big a deal?

Similarly, if it's just a pickup game, is it really that big a deal if you have to use the current rules for your army?

No, just the situations where a 4th ed codex breaks something in 6th edition...

Except those have been FAQed for 6th (at least in theory), assuming they're still the most recent rules for that army. Compare that with, say, trying to use the old IG codex in 6th edition. That codex was replaced in 5th edition, so any conflicts with 6th edition never received an official FAQ or errata. You're on your own for inventing a solution when you discover one of those conflicts.

I guess unfortunetly you need the newest 50 dollar book

that said the codex updates is basically a way of scamming money off people.

They rarely change anything in a significant or thoughtful way, they recycle old content, old art, a few minor changes, add a few (usually dumb) new units, rinse and repeat.

 Peregrine wrote:
Similarly, if it's just a pickup game, is it really that big a deal if you have to use the current rules for your army?

It probably would be if I didn't have them...

Except those have been FAQed for 6th (at least in theory), assuming they're still the most recent rules for that army.

But you just said that FAQ's were no good, because I might be faking them.

Seriously, if the army was updated for 6th, and the player still has the 6th ed FAQ, where is the problem? Sure, you might not remember every detail of that FAQ off the top of your head... but if you were familiar with it when it was published, it's still going to look right when you see it. And if not, and they've 'tinkered' with the FAQ to give themselves some sort of advantage... well, they've cheated to win a game of toy soldiers for no actual reward. Yay them.

Compare that with, say, trying to use the old IG codex in 6th edition. That codex was replaced in 5th edition, so any conflicts with 6th edition never received an official FAQ or errata. You're on your own for inventing a solution when you discover one of those conflicts.

Yes, as discussed up the thread a ways. In most cases, the issues are going to be minor... Certain special rules that will need to be rejiggered or ignored. I wouldn't expect it to require more than a short discussion before the game to sort that out. For most armies, it would probably take less time than sorting out how all of the terrain is going to work.