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Hello,

I've decided to get into Warhammer Fantasy and I've got a lot of questions and am looking for some input.

The armies that I really like are High Elves, Wood Elves, Dark Elves, The Empire, and Dwarves. I'm liking Wood Elves the most at the moment.

How do these armies generally play? Can any of them be of a low model count/ be done for cheaper than average? Optimal units/combinations.

What do musicians/banners do?

Besides the Island of Blood rulebook, is there anything else I'll need to pick up to begin with (any special dice/templates that aren't in 40k)?

Thanks in advance!

EDIT: Are Dragons any good? Most armies seem to have one.

What is an average sized game?

 Dr. What wrote:
Hello,

I've decided to get into Warhammer Fantasy and I've got a lot of questions and am looking for some input.

The armies that I really like are High Elves, Wood Elves, Dark Elves, The Empire, and Dwarves. I'm liking Wood Elves the most at the moment.

How do these armies generally play? Can any of them be of a low model count/ be done for cheaper than average? Optimal units/combinations.

What do musicians/banners do?

Besides the Island of Blood rulebook, is there anything else I'll need to pick up to begin with (any special dice/templates that aren't in 40k)?

Thanks in advance!

EDIT: Are Dragons any good? Most armies seem to have one.

What is an average sized game?

High Elves, Dark Elves and The Empire tend to be quite high model count armies and to paint with a bit of a broad brush, they are all combined arms armies (they are good at a couple of things and combine those things together to win).
Wood Elves are a low(er) model count army, but are a book left over from 6th edition and haven't faired well at all in the transition to 8th, you can play them if you want (they do have the best models) but be prepared to be at a significant disadvantage in most games, especially in the power books left over from 7th (Lizards and DE).
Don't play with/against dwarfs so cannot comment there.

Musos/Banners are covered in the relevant sections of the rule book.

You will need an artillery die if you play with artillery (dwarfs and empire mostly).

Dragons are good unless you face multiple cannons, but they tend to be passed over for a lord level wizard, since this is afterall magichammer fantasy battles.

I think I'm going to go with Wood Elves. Some of the models are beautiful (and some I'm just going to avoid).

I'm thinking I will run a list comprised of mostly Glade Guard, Wild Riders, Dryads, and a Treeman.

Any tips on what units in the book are optimal/near unplayable?

Also, what is the point size for a standard game?

 Dr. What wrote:
I think I'm going to go with Wood Elves. Some of the models are beautiful (and some I'm just going to avoid).

I'm thinking I will run a list comprised of mostly Glade Guard, Wild Riders, Dryads, and a Treeman.

Any tips on what units in the book are optimal/near unplayable?

I agree, I love WE aesthetically as well. As for the unit/lists, I'm not WE connoisseur, but Trees are definitely favorable. From local players I've seen succeed w/ WE (yes, it's possible. don't always believe the internet), they never use Eternal Guard or Wild Riders - lists are either extremely Tree heavy, or fairly balanced (Trees, cavalry, Elf skirmishers, etc)

 Dr. What wrote:
Also, what is the point size for a standard game?

Depends on the local meta and whathaveyou. But in general, 2000pts and 2500pts seem to be the most commonly played pt level.

Also, are movement trays required?

Not at all, but if you're using large ranked up units, they are EXTREMELY useful and make the game much faster and less frustrating. So whilst you aren't bound by any rule to have them, I'd still pick them up.

However, with WE I see a lot of armies made up of only skirmishes and small units of cavalry, for which movement trays aren't as useful.

Not using movement trays is a good way to turn what should be an hour and a half game into a 5 hour marathon.

They are a gaming aid that is a very good idea. Don't play this game without them.


And not to get you down, you should always play the army you enjoy playing, but Wood Elves are pretty much the bottom of the pile right now. You can win with them, but you'll need to be a very good player and have a good list. Where normally you really need to only be a good player.

They are way past due for an update. Hopefully they come out soon but I haven't heard any rumors.


None of the armies you picked are really low model count, although Wood Elves are probably the best to do that with lots of forest spirits. Although you won't have very many actual wood elves if you do that.

Low model count armies would be Ogres and WoC, and Brettonia and Lizardmen to a lesser extent. And in all but ogres, an average game is still looking at 50+ models. ogres can be down in the 30-40 range with the proper build.


Artillery dice are not a requirement. You can use a normal D6. Simply double the value on the facing, this will give you the 2-4-6-8-10 of an artillery dice. double 6 is a misfire.

 Dr. What wrote:
I think I'm going to go with Wood Elves. Some of the models are beautiful (and some I'm just going to avoid).

I'm thinking I will run a list comprised of mostly Glade Guard, Wild Riders, Dryads, and a Treeman.

Any tips on what units in the book are optimal/near unplayable?

Also, what is the point size for a standard game?

Useful units are:
Glade Guard
Spellweavers (scroll or wand)
Min units of dryads
Eagles
Waywatchers
Treekin, Eternal Guard, Treeman and Warhawks are slightly more niche but can still be useful

If you haven't taken the plunge yet, is there any way I can talk you out of it?
Fantasy is a terrible set of rules, and the gameplay is not nearly as exciting or cinematic as 40K.

I would suggest that you don't do it. It's not worth it. Stick with 40K.

 Dr. What wrote:
Hello,

I've decided to get into Warhammer Fantasy and I've got a lot of questions and am looking for some input.

The armies that I really like are High Elves, Wood Elves, Dark Elves, The Empire, and Dwarves. I'm liking Wood Elves the most at the moment.

How do these armies generally play? Can any of them be of a low model count/ be done for cheaper than average? Optimal units/combinations.

What do musicians/banners do?

Besides the Island of Blood rulebook, is there anything else I'll need to pick up to begin with (any special dice/templates that aren't in 40k)?

Thanks in advance!

EDIT: Are Dragons any good? Most armies seem to have one.

What is an average sized game?

Wood elves are cool, but currently their army book is very very old - it can be a struggle to play them. However they are slated for a re-vamp that is allegedly in progress / possibly mostly done in the near-ish future. Probably not the next army book (likely LM), but the next or following that one.

Dwarves are in the same boat - neat army, but old army book, due for an update soon - likely after lizardmen and either before or after wood elves if rumors are to be believed.

HE can do just about everything well - they are an elite, small model count army with excellent melee, fairly decent shooting, and great magic potential with lots of magic flexibility. The biggest single weakness they have past the nearly uniform Toughness of 3 is that their warmachines are lackluster. The bolt-thrower relies on BS, so its so-so. Not horrible, but nothing approaching a cannon or stonethrower in terms of effectiveness. They can play very aggresively or defensively, or a combination of both, depending on your list. They shine in the "Special" category. I play HE as my main army and i love them - its a struggle to take my LM or VC out for a spin because i love playing my HE so much.

Note that though they are low model count, its not necessarily cheaper. There are units that you want to run 20-21 of, and those are 50 bucks for 10 models. Its not a ridiculously expensive army dollar wise, but its still an investment, so don't let the $$$ be your main guide: you will spend a chunk of change to complete any army.

Empire: Pretty cool army, just got an army book update. Lots of warmachine hotness, and i personally like demigryphs. Cheap core, lots of models if you go core heavy. When i played them i ran lots of greatswords, tons of artillery, a steamtank, and filled to taste, usually with minimal core, but that's just me, i'm no empire expert by a long shot - i played them because i wanted to blow stuff up with warmachines.


DE: Very strong army. I'm not an expert on them, but they have great core and specials, great support, great magic, and the hydra is one of the nastier and point cost effective monsters in the entire game.



Musicians and banners: part of command, musicians make you win a combat if it's a tie, and the opposing side doesn't have one, they also assist in reforms. Banners give +1 combat rez amongst other things (there's two types)... the best thing is to review the rules on command / musicians / unit banners and battle standard banners.

Dragons: unfortunately most are overpriced for what they do. They can be very very difficult to fit into a typical sized game for the points, but more because of what you CAN'T fit in if you take one.

Typical sized games: it varies. 1500 is the smallest i've ever played, 2000 provides a medium game. My crew plays 2500 or 3000 as its main game size. Anything larger takes all day. It really varies group to group though... you see lists on this forum for all sizes.

Thank you all for your input!

Relic07 wrote:
If you haven't taken the plunge yet, is there any way I can talk you out of it?
Fantasy is a terrible set of rules, and the gameplay is not nearly as exciting or cinematic as 40K.

I would suggest that you don't do it. It's not worth it. Stick with 40K.

The reason why I'm going to build a Fantasy army is because all the other 40k players in my area have left, but there are several fantasy players.

I'm not dropping 40k, but I'm also not going to make another 40k army.

Relic07 wrote:
If you haven't taken the plunge yet, is there any way I can talk you out of it?
Fantasy is a terrible set of rules, and the gameplay is not nearly as exciting or cinematic as 40K.

I would suggest that you don't do it. It's not worth it. Stick with 40K.

I really hope you are being sarcastic, because those assertions are simply not true.

8th ed Fantasy is very much a superior rule set to 40k.

 Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

 Dr. What wrote:
I think I'm going to go with Wood Elves. Some of the models are beautiful (and some I'm just going to avoid).

I'm thinking I will run a list comprised of mostly Glade Guard, Wild Riders, Dryads, and a Treeman.

Any tips on what units in the book are optimal/near unplayable?

I agree, I love WE aesthetically as well. As for the unit/lists, I'm not WE connoisseur, but Trees are definitely favorable. From local players I've seen succeed w/ WE (yes, it's possible. don't always believe the internet), they never use Eternal Guard or Wild Riders - lists are either extremely Tree heavy, or fairly balanced (Trees, cavalry, Elf skirmishers, etc)

 Dr. What wrote:
Also, what is the point size for a standard game?

Depends on the local meta and whathaveyou. But in general, 2000pts and 2500pts seem to be the most commonly played pt level.

Actually, 2400 tends to be the standard big game points number, possibly because it allows a round 600 for lords, heroes and the like.

Maybe in the UK, but in the US 2500 is more common.

Relic07 wrote:
If you haven't taken the plunge yet, is there any way I can talk you out of it?
Fantasy is a terrible set of rules, and the gameplay is not nearly as exciting or cinematic as 40K.

I would suggest that you don't do it. It's not worth it. Stick with 40K.

Dude go troll somewhere else. Man i wish the mods would ban you, i'm so tired of your negative attitude towards WFB, if you don't like it ignore it and stop being a prick to everyone.

On a lighter note. welcome to Fantasy Dr. What! If you want to play competitively, I wouldn't suggest Wood Elves but that's just my opinion if you like the models and want to start them go for it hopefully they will get a new book soon. I suspect they may get a new book in August bc they are getting a new Black Library book then and also out of all the armies that got an faq update back in April, only High Elves and Wood Elves didn't get one (High elves bc they got a new book in May). Also with GW releasing almost all of the Chaos armies in WFB and 40k together that gives me hope we will see a wood elf book and dark elf book before the end of the year.

Fantasy is a great game. It is a completely different set of tactics to 40k.
Unfortunately I don't have experience with those armies. My gaming group is small and my time limited.
I would guess that dwarves would have a pretty low model count with cannons and the like.
Warriors of chaos definitely has one of the lowest model counts in the game.
There was a thread that someone listed the points in each battalion box and those are decent ways to start. Pick up 2boxes, a lord/hero and a sorcerer and you will be really close to 2000pts. Not the most effective army but it's a good start.
If you get island of blood and a high elf battalion you'll be close to 2000 as well and can probably sell trade the skaven for cash.
Or get someone else to start with you that wants to play skaven and both of you can buy island of blood and trade the parts to each other.
Over all you will be able to field a decent army with differnet unit selections of about 2000pts for about $300-$400US depending on the Race. Your specific race and list can change the value as well as whether or not you want second hand items.
Good luck.
I say..hail to the Horned Rat and the Council of Thirteen.

Dwarves can have a lot of warmachines, but their basic troops aren't super expensive so you will have a few big units. Only slightly less than something like HEs get.

It is weird. Dwarves have a trope of being a more elite durable army but their basic troops don't really live up to it.


WoC can be super elite or a horde army, depending on if you go with Marauders or Warriors as Core.

I'm fairly set on Wood Elves now.

I'm going to do a force mostly comprised of Glade Guard, Wild Riders, Dryads, 2 Treemen, Possibly Treekin, and a Spellweaver or 2.

How many points were you going to start out at?

 Krellnus wrote:
How many points were you going to start out at?

I'm thinking I'll create a solid 1000 point base. The highest I'll go is probably 2500, which is the standard for the closest tournament should I decide to enter it.

Well, almost all of my Wood Elf purchases fell out from underneath me so I'm feeling rather discouraged.

Another army that I really like is Warriors of Chaos. They seem to very tough and capable of beating in faces in close combat as well as being a low model count force.

Is that correct? What would an average 1500 point WoC force look like? Or Ogre Kingdoms?

Something like a Daemon Prince, a BSB, 2-3 18 man units of Warriors, maybe a couple Chariots(either regular or Gorebeast), a unit of Skullcrushers, and a couple units of hounds.

You could do a Chariot based army as normal Chariots are core. Run a bunch of Core chariots plus a few Gorebeast chariots. Along with Skullcrushers and a Daemon Prince.

So, it looks like I'm getting a dump of High Elves and I'd hate to look a gift horse in the mouth.

Is this a feasible army concept (Aiming for 1500)?

2 large blocks of Spearmen each with a mage with the Lore of Life to buff/regenerate the unit.

Eagles as combat deterrents/manipulators.

2 Blocks of 15-20 Archers for defensive capability along with 2 Bolt Throwers.

What should I use as a hammer? I was thinking of some calvary (Reavers perhaps?) or Shadow Warriors? Or Both?

Any thoughts?

Big units of White Lions or Sword Masters make really good hammers for HE.

Other than that yeah looks pretty good, although shadow is also a really synergistic lore for HE.

 Krellnus wrote:
Big units of White Lions or Sword Masters make really good hammers for HE.

Other than that yeah looks pretty good, although shadow is also a really synergistic lore for HE.

I like both of those units so I'll defnitely look into trying them at least. Perhaps White Lion Chariots as well?

Also, how is the Flame Phoenix? I'd love to have one of my leaders on one. Are they worth it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, how big should a blob of Spearmen be?

I was thinking 4 -5 rows of 5, so 4 rows can attack and it'll allow for more to die in case of a late regeneration.

Not having read the HE book too much, although from what others have said, the frost phoenix is better overall (I think its tankier or something).

Spearman should be ~40 no bigger than ~50 imo

Not sure on chariots, but the were decent in the last book, should still be solid if they haven't changed much.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Relic07 wrote:
If you haven't taken the plunge yet, is there any way I can talk you out of it?
Fantasy is a terrible set of rules, and the gameplay is not nearly as exciting or cinematic as 40K.

I would suggest that you don't do it. It's not worth it. Stick with 40K.

I really hope you are being sarcastic, because those assertions are simply not true.

8th ed Fantasy is very much a superior rule set to 40k.

I saw an interesting youtube video on this. Essentially, it boiled down to "the Fantasy rules are much better on paper, but in practice, at the competitive level both rulesets are abused badly enough to bring them to the same level"

Movement, flanking etc for instance stops being so important when you can go edge to edge with swarms of infantry. Magic stops being interesting when everyone is using the same spells. Etc etc.

 Dr. What wrote:
I'm fairly set on Wood Elves now.

I'm going to do a force mostly comprised of Glade Guard, Wild Riders, Dryads, 2 Treemen, Possibly Treekin, and a Spellweaver or 2.

Hi, WHFB is a great game, ignore the guy trolling. I play 40k and fantasy by the way and own many armies including the WE.

Others have already told you that the WE are not a very good army and it is a sad but true situation. The basic force you mentioned above is not bad. One of my regular opponents actually uses up to three treemen and they are quite destructive. A solid unit of treekin is also one of the better units.

Now I am sure that some people's head will explode when I say this, but woodelf shooting is completely ineffective against more than a few armies. Indeed shooting in general, EXCEPT, for cannons is just not even remotely similar in power to shooting in 40k. In a recent game for example, my 3 units of 10 skinks and 2 units of salamanders completely shamed the WE in shooting kills, plus the salamanders charged and finished off the small WE archer units. This is not an unusual result.

The models of the WE are really beautiful but currently the combat power of the army is inversely proportional to its good looks.

Some problems you will face:

vs Ogres, large blocks of ogres, cannons, and monstrous cavalry. I dont see much chance of a win here for WE

vs Lizardmen, very tough matchup because the LM are very resilent and salamanders enjoy, T3. Thunderstomping units with the treemen will be fun though. You do not have anything that will stand up to a big unit of TempleGuard though and skinks will get some wounds through with their poison, they are much hated by my opponents.

vs Warriors of Chaos, the Demon prince and chimaeras will fly around and pick your army apart, but then again they will do this to any army without cannons

High Elves, everything you do, and more they do better. They have a banner that will nerf all your magic based attacks to, which sucks and the frostheart phoenix may be the best monster in the game

vs Beastmen: This can be a fun game for both sides actually and either can win depending on list composition and skill.

Vampires: Very difficult for you to win against a competent VC army, WE just will be overpowered

Dark Elves: An older book that actually benefits from being old but not ancient. They will dominate the magic phase and own you in combat

Nurgle Demons of Chaos: With the basic Epidemius build and two cannons, you have no chance to win. My regular WE opponent has been to half a dozen local tournaments and two grand tournaments so far this year. He agrees that the WE have NO chance against this army so we have agreed I dont play Nurgle demons against WE

Empire: This is a solid army with the new book. They have cannons and a steam tank to shoot up your treemen and treekin and you dont have an answer for a big block of halberdiers which is standard in most empire armies. They have good monstrous cavalry also.

Skaven: Man I would not want to face my skaven army with WE. It is like the DE book it benefitted from the new core rules and was already a powerful army. You will be massively outnumbered and just rolled over if you are playing against a good skaven general.

Dwarves and TK: lol who cares?

The thing is BOTH the core rules and various units in new army books put the WE at a huge disadvantage. There is just too much stuff in the game that the WE dont have an answer for.

 Krellnus wrote:
Not having read the HE book too much, although from what others have said, the frost phoenix is better overall (I think its tankier or something).

I like idea of it being capable of rebirth (even if only on a 5+). Plus, I was thinking that a fast lord/hero would make another good hammer, so I figured either a Phoenix or a Griffin (I guess the Island of Blood model would be good for this!). I'd love a dragon, but I'm not sure if it'd have a place.

Griffins unfortunately have the problem of being too expensive for too, little, be they Empire or High Elves, luckily you have the advantage of being able to take Great Eagles.

They give +1 T to your lords and heroes as well as +1W to your heroes additionally throwing in 2 S4 attacks, an S4 stomp and immunity to stomp/Tstomp.