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I've had a bit of a hiatus from the homebrew community mainly to figure out what I really want to do with homebrew instead of just randomly what comes to mind and have decided I will only be upgrading newer codex releases which need work, older codex releases which either won't or will be waiting at least over two years for a new codex, or just straight-up homebrew stuff that doesn't have rules.

Anyone wondering what happened to the Iron Hands codex, it has been put on indefinite hiatus until I see what the new Codex: Space Marine book brings (and waiting to hear any rumours of an Iron Hands supplement). If anyone wants to use any of the Iron Hands stuff I have posted for your own stab at the Iron Hands, feel free.

So with that said I'm starting my new homebrew era with a codex that, I believe, came into 6th Edition very underwhelming and underpowered: Dark Angels. While the Dark Angels do have some good points they also have far too many bad options, even when compared to other 6th Edition codex releases. It just didn't feel like GW and the book's writer put enough effort into the codex, which left a lot of units feeling pretty bland and unimaginative.

Here are some of the changes I have so far, note that the PDF is being worked on but for right now I'm looking for input on the changes being made, as well as some other things I need input on (which I'll discuss later in this post):
* Making Banners/Standards actually feel more important. So far I have done this by allowing certain units to pick up a banner if the banner bearer dies and also removing the banner bearer from Command Squads and, instead, making a new unit called the Banner Herald, an independent character who can take a beating and carries the chapter's standards.

* Improved some of the Warlord Traits to bring them in line with one another in terms of usefulness and attractiveness.

* Changed virtually all of the Dark Angels plasma weapons. Regular plasma weapons are now called vengeance plasma weapons and have two firing modes (a normal mode and a charged mode) and improved some of the Dark Angels unique plasma weapons. This was done to give the Dark Angels a good plasma-heavy army feel without risking a chunk of your army on Gets Hot rolls, now you have the choice of firing a weaker burst with plasma weapons safely or firing a standard/stronger plasma burst at the risk of the Gets Hot special rule.

* Improved/tweaked various other Dark Angels exclusive weapons to make them a bit more attractive and/or useful.

* Added in special issue ammunition. Independent Characters can purchase it from the armoury (each type costs points) and Company Veterans squads can be equipped with most all of the types.

* A few of the relics got tweaked. Monster Slayer of Caliban is now more fluffy and useful, Shroud of Heroes now provides Feel No Pain (4+) (may revert that back, depends on playtesting), and added a new relic which is only available to an upgraded Company Master: Scimitar Jetbike.

* Fixing some of the named characters to make them a bit fluffier or a bit more worth their points.

* Company Masters can now be upgraded to Grand Masters. You can even upgrade them to a Grand Master of the Chapter, Grand Master of the Deathwing, or Grand Master of the Ravenwing. However, if you take Chapter Master you can no longer take Azrael, if you take Master of the Deathwing you can no longer take Belial, and if you take Master of the Ravenwing you can no longer take Sammael. There are 7-8 other Grand Master options as well.

* Porta-rack has been removed. Instead, Interrogator-Chaplains have the porta-rack's effect as a special rule now in the hopes of making them a bit more attractive and useful.

* Librarians and Chaplains have been rolled into one unit entry called Dark Angel Hero. They haven't gone anywhere, they still have the same names and special rules they used to have, they've just been streamlined into a single entry to save space.

* Adding in the Mortis Dreadnought as a Heavy Support choice. Didn't make sense to me why it wasn't included at all when its a Dark Angels exclusive piece of wargear.

* Adding in rules to play as The Fallen using Codex: Chaos Space Marines OR to play as a Dark Angels-founded vanilla marine army (the latter is coming when the new Space Marine codex is released).

* Various other minor tweaks and adjustments.

----------

That's it for my planned changes, now I want to get some feedback from you guys, not only on the changes I have already planned to make, but on a few more things as well:
* I want to include at least 1-2 Chapter Masters from Dark Angels-founded chapters, however there is hardly any lore of any of the Dark Angels successors chapter masters. So I want to hear from you: what Dark Angels-founded chapters do YOU guys want to see represented and how should these characters be designed? Also, what unique special rules should they bring to the Dark Angels to define their own chapters?

* Any suggestions, ideas, or balancing tweaks you have in mind? I'm only human so I might have overlooked an issue or two, or if you simply have a cool unit idea let me know.

Why?

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Why?

I fail to see how this is constructive. As for why, I clearly detailed why in my post (right in the first part of my post, actually).

* Librarians and Chaplains have been rolled together with the new unit Forgewrights to form an entry called the Dark Angels Hero. These units didn't lose anything in the transition, in fact they now have a higher Ballistic Skill because of it.

Nothing in that dot point makes a lick of sense. Not one bit.

 motyak wrote:

* Librarians and Chaplains have been rolled together with the new unit Forgewrights to form an entry called the Dark Angels Hero. These units didn't lose anything in the transition, in fact they now have a higher Ballistic Skill because of it.

Nothing in that dot point makes a lick of sense. Not one bit.

Let me clarify:

I rolled them into a single unit entry. They still have the same names, wargear, special rules, etc, I just streamlined them a bit so they don't need two separate entries when their virtually the same unit but with different wargear and special rules. Forgewrights are simply Masters of the Forge, but without the dreadnought rules. I did something similar (very similar) in my Space Marine fandex. Hope that clears things up.

Except they are not at all similar, Librarians and Chaplains. They hold completely different roles within a chapter, especially within the Dark Angels. That's like saying Wolf Priests and Rune Priests are basically the same thing, Lord Commissars and Primaris Psykers, etc.

To be clear, I'm completely in support of you making a DA fandex, just that this idea should have no place in it. Even outside of the fluff and on the tabletop they have completely different roles.

 motyak wrote:
Except they are not at all similar, Librarians and Chaplains. They hold completely different roles within a chapter, especially within the Dark Angels. That's like saying Wolf Priests and Rune Priests are basically the same thing, Lord Commissars and Primaris Psykers, etc.

I never said they were the same unit, just that they were similar enough to be grouped into one unit entry. The fandex hasn't lost Chaplains or Librarians, they're still there, they still have the same special rules and wargear they used to have, still have the same names even, they've just been rolled into a single unit entry instead of taking up two entries/pages. Nothing has been lost, things have just been streamlined.

Ok, thanks for explaining. How do they get a better BS than their equivalents in any of the other MEQ codexes out of it?

 motyak wrote:
Ok, thanks for explaining. How do they get a better BS than their equivalents in any of the other MEQ codexes out of it?

The better BS was to accommodate the addition of the Forgewrights (Master of the Forge, but not a Master), which I thought was a little odd that they had been excluded. I may just end up reducing the Hero (Chaplain/Librarian) back down to 4 and just making the Forgewright it's own entry. I may add a few more upgrades to the Hero as well (such as an Emperor's Champion or some such knightly unit), not sure what yet or if anything.

I'd say 4 makes more sense, else your librarian will become some kind of super librarian in regards to witchfire attacks and what not for no other reason than he is a Dark Angel.

 motyak wrote:
I'd say 4 makes more sense, else your librarian will become some kind of super librarian in regards to witchfire attacks and what not for no other reason than he is a Dark Angel.

Good point. Forgewright shall become its own unit then and the Dark Angels Hero will have its BS reduced back down to 4.

 Marik Law wrote:

 motyak wrote:
I'd say 4 makes more sense, else your librarian will become some kind of super librarian in regards to witchfire attacks and what not for no other reason than he is a Dark Angel.

Good point. Forgewright shall become its own unit then and the Dark Angels Hero will have its BS reduced back down to 4.

Hurray, I contributed!

 motyak wrote:

 Marik Law wrote:

 motyak wrote:
I'd say 4 makes more sense, else your librarian will become some kind of super librarian in regards to witchfire attacks and what not for no other reason than he is a Dark Angel.

Good point. Forgewright shall become its own unit then and the Dark Angels Hero will have its BS reduced back down to 4.

Hurray, I contributed!

Indeed you did. Thank you very much.

Why make Mortis Dreads Heavy? They're Elites now.

With Fallen rules, you should add a Cypher character.

SavageRobby wrote:

Why make Mortis Dreads Heavy? They're Elites now.

With Fallen rules, you should add a Cypher character.

It's Heavy because that's where I feel a unit dedicated to laying down that much firepower should remain. The normal Dreadnoughts will remain Elites choices still. To me this is more of a personal balancing taste over anything else.

Oh Cypher is definitely getting added for use with CSM. I think it would be blasphemy for me to do rules for The Fallen and not include Cypher, hehe.

 Marik Law wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Why?

I fail to see how this is constructive.

You don't understand why making up a new rule is important? It's the most important thing about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marik Law wrote:
most of their unique units are pretty bland/boring o... left a lot of units feeling pretty bland and unimaginative.

Deathwing Knights - entirely new, contain more than one totally unique rule only they have.
Ravenwing Knights, Dark Talon, Land Speeder Vengeance/Darkshroud - ditto.
Deathwing Terminators operate like no one elses Terminators with Split Fire, mixed weapons, and Deathwing Assault.

Where are these unique units that are bland?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Marik Law wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Why?

I fail to see how this is constructive.

You don't understand why making up a new rule is important? It's the most important thing about it.

No, I don't see why you come onto the Proposed Rules forums and ask why somebody is creating proposed rules/homebrew anything. Asking why somebody is creating/recreating rules for something, especially if they already said why in the original post (third paragraph down, in case you missed it).

I don't see you asking why I'm doing this this project as being constructive when I made clear why I'm doing it in my original post, to me it seems like you're just looking for a confrontation. Now had you asked why to a particular issue, I'd see that as constructive and I'd gladly offer you my input, but you sitting there asking me why I'm creating homebrew rules on a forum dedicated to homebrew rules, especially when I already made my reasoning clear in my original post, then no I don't consider that constructive at all, I consider it you trying to derail this thread.

Again, if you actually have something constructive to say then please do so, but if you're going to try to just prod me to get some kind of confrontation or rise out of me then you're in the wrong thread and I'd kindly ask you to take your games elsewhere.

These look like horrible "fixes" especially the Storm Shield thing. Thunder hammer terminators get one attack? Librarians and chaplians fulfill two very different roles, why shove them into one unit? Fluff-wise, Dark Angels have never had a Master of the Forge, as they distrust techmarines.

These are some terrible solutions looking for problems.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
These look like horrible "fixes" especially the Storm Shield thing. Thunder hammer terminators get one attack? Librarians and chaplians fulfill two very different roles, why shove them into one unit? Fluff-wise, Dark Angels have never had a Master of the Forge, as they distrust techmarines.

These are some terrible solutions looking for problems.

You saying "horrible fixes" isn't actually proving that they're horrible fixes. If you'd care to tell me why they're horrible fixes then please feel free. TH + SS terminators have been an issue for quite a while now and to some degree still are. They're simply too good for what they do and at the points they're at. Sadly this kind of problem can't be fixed by a simple points tweak, make it too expensive and people won't want to take them at all. Let me ask you this, in all honesty: when was the last time you saw anyone running lightning claw terminators in non-fluffy games?

I'm not going to argue the second point because I've already clarified and re-clarified that. Please re-read what I posted in the original topic about the Dark Angels Hero unit and, if you're still confused on the matter, read the conversation I had with Motyak for further clarification.

As for the last part of your last point, thank you for that. That little bit of lore had slipped my mind. No Forgewrights it is.

You seem to have just skimmed over this part of Darkness' post though, which does raise a good point

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marik Law wrote:
most of their unique units are pretty bland/boring o... left a lot of units feeling pretty bland and unimaginative.

Deathwing Knights - entirely new, contain more than one totally unique rule only they have.
Ravenwing Knights, Dark Talon, Land Speeder Vengeance/Darkshroud - ditto.
Deathwing Terminators operate like no one elses Terminators with Split Fire, mixed weapons, and Deathwing Assault.

Where are these unique units that are bland?

He also should have included the Nephilim, Standards (which no other army has in the same way), and something else that is nagging at the corner of my mind.

 motyak wrote:
You seem to have just skimmed over this part of Darkness' post though, which does raise a good point

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marik Law wrote:
most of their unique units are pretty bland/boring o... left a lot of units feeling pretty bland and unimaginative.

Deathwing Knights - entirely new, contain more than one totally unique rule only they have.
Ravenwing Knights, Dark Talon, Land Speeder Vengeance/Darkshroud - ditto.
Deathwing Terminators operate like no one elses Terminators with Split Fire, mixed weapons, and Deathwing Assault.

Where are these unique units that are bland?

He also should have included the Nephilim, Standards (which no other army has in the same way), and something else that is nagging at the corner of my mind.

Thing is I never specifically mentioned any units when I said that some of the new units were bland. Deathwing Knights I hadn't touched and wasn't planning on touching. They were fine. Most of the issues weren't with the units themselves or their special rules, most of them were wargear or option problems.

As for the standards, I keep my belief that the book didn't go far enough with making the Dark Angels fixation with their standards feel more fluffy. The Sacred Standards are a start, but that big of a points sink is pretty harsh for a piece of wargear that dies with the unit (which in 6th Edition and the continued introduction of units with improved precision shots is really harsh). I'd definitely be willing to reconsider/drop the changes made to the Sacred Standards themselves, but I think adding the Banner Herald and the ability, for when the Banner Herald dies, for certain Dark Angels units to pick it up, improves the feel of the codex, but as always I'm open to suggestions or alternatives.

Thing is I never specifically mentioned any units when I said that some of the new units were bland.

No, you said that most of them were, and Darkness just showed that most of them aren't at all bland, instead full of new rules and uses. I think that's why he was challenging your reasons for a fandex. Or she. Who knows.

 motyak wrote:

Thing is I never specifically mentioned any units when I said that some of the new units were bland.

No, you said that most of them were, and Darkness just showed that most of them aren't at all bland, instead full of new rules and uses. I think that's why he was challenging your reasons for a fandex. Or she. Who knows.

Sadly he/she didn't make his/her point clear and decided to go the way he/she went about it instead. However you are correct, that entry point was worded poorly. However, that doesn't excuse his/her behaviour and doesn't give him/her permission to try to derail a thread just because he/she doesn't like the idea (which I believe is against forum rules).

*****

And if I can offer a little bit of tangential advice, OP. You really should ratchet down on the defensive reactions. If you are really planning out things and looking for feedback, these kinds of reactions make it seem like you're less interested in feedback and more interested in praise.

 curran12 wrote:
And if I can offer a little bit of tangential advice, OP. You really should ratchet down on the defensive reactions. If you are really planning out things and looking for feedback, these kinds of reactions make it seem like you're less interested in feedback and more interested in praise.

My apologies, was just frustrated by a certain forum poster's attitude and idea of what he considers to be "constructive." He has since been ignored so that's that.

I'm good with feedback so long as its constructive, even if it's negative.

The list is too vague to really be able to make any constructive criticisms, but I can't say it looks good for practically the entire list to be buffs. Especially when the codex is practically brand new, it looks less like wanting to rebalance it and more like wanting it to be the bestest ever. But without details like points costs it's hard to actually suggest anything.

Chrysis wrote:
The list is too vague to really be able to make any constructive criticisms, but I can't say it looks good for practically the entire list to be buffs. Especially when the codex is practically brand new, it looks less like wanting to rebalance it and more like wanting it to be the bestest ever. But without details like points costs it's hard to actually suggest anything.

Thanks for the concern, it's appreciated.

The vast majority of the points values didn't fluctuate (unless the unit was improved in some fashion) and most of the units remained unchanged. As I said prior, the codex does have its good units, special rules, options, and wargear, there are a few units which just need to be brought up in line with those other units. My motives are primarily lore-based with a dash of just trying to even and "fluffify" the codex out a bit.

I plan to get some kind of PDF up within the next few weeks, even just a rough draft.

In any case thanks for the input.

If I may make a suggestion, perhaps you could give the Nephilim's main gun AP3 like the other Avenger Megabolter around (the one on the Avenger) it would go a long way to making it...not mediocre.

Chrysis wrote:
The list is too vague to really be able to make any constructive criticisms, but I can't say it looks good for practically the entire list to be buffs. Especially when the codex is practically brand new, it looks less like wanting to rebalance it and more like wanting it to be the bestest ever. But without details like points costs it's hard to actually suggest anything.

However, this is typically the problem with fandexes. "the real codex is nothing like I imagined it should have been, so screw GW, I'll write my own!"

The book is fine. There are some minor issues, like the Blackstorm missiles (that seem to have been overlooked) that coild have been better, but these fixes do nothing but try to raise DA to the level of Tau and Necrons in terms of rules and OMG stuff.

Out of simple curiosity, how much has the OP played with the new Dark Angels codex? or the old one, for that matter?