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SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Chrysis wrote:
The list is too vague to really be able to make any constructive criticisms, but I can't say it looks good for practically the entire list to be buffs. Especially when the codex is practically brand new, it looks less like wanting to rebalance it and more like wanting it to be the bestest ever. But without details like points costs it's hard to actually suggest anything.

However, this is typically the problem with fandexes. "the real codex is nothing like I imagined it should have been, so screw GW, I'll write my own!"

The book is fine. There are some minor issues, like the Blackstorm missiles (that seem to have been overlooked) that coild have been better, but these fixes do nothing but try to raise DA to the level of Tau and Necrons in terms of rules and OMG stuff.

Out of simple curiosity, how much has the OP played with the new Dark Angels codex? or the old one, for that matter?

I'm re-doing the Dark Angels codex because I felt it didn't go far enough from a fluffy standpoint, not so much a power standpoint (as you said, a lot of the book is fine apart from a few minor tweaks, which is exactly what I am doing). My primary goal is to fluff out the book a bit and make it a bit less restrictive (more customization) without going overboard.

As for me playing Dark Angels, technically I've been playing them since 2nd (I've been playing for around 20 years now), though didn't have a DA army of my own until about 4th Edition. I remember eventually putting said army in mothballs after a while, not so much because of the rampant power creep that happened but moreso for the Codex feeling fairly generic and bland the longer it went without a new release. After a while they just felt like Space Marines Lite with a few funky special rules. I'm also a CSM player so when the 6th Edition CSMcodex came out I was really happy with it, so I got my hopes up for Dark Angels. Sadly I felt those hopes were shattered, not because the army was horrendously underpowered or anything, but because the Codex just felt slapped together and needlessly restrictive.

Chances to create more interesting special rules, particularly with named characters, were missed and generic USRs blandly used as stop-gaps instead, but that wasn't what got me the most. The part that got me the most was the grotesque lack of customization. Out of all of the Space Marine books (Space Marines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, etc) the new Dark Angels book felt the most oppressive and restricted, leaving very little room for a player's own imagination and fluff to expand. This was my big problem, as to somebody like me who got into this game for the amazing level of customization it had, now was looking at an army which could only be customized in unit composition and not in actual character.

Don't get me wrong, I did like a lot of the new units (Deathwing Knights, Vengeance/Darkshroud, etc), but it was the lack of customization and just the lack of imagination used in the Codex that really got to me. To me it seemed like GW wasn't at all interested in even creating any kind of customization for this army, they seemed to want you to play the core Dark Angels chapter and nothing else, even going as far as to trivialize (to a degree) the Dark Angels successor chapters in the new lore in the Codex. To me it felt less like GW trying to give the Dark Angels more well-defined lore so much as it was just them trying to force the purchases of named character models on people.

As for the Blackstorm Missiles, they are getting tweaked, just didn't include it specifically in my breakdown, however they are a perfect example of what I mean about this codex. Compare the lore in the Blackstorm Missile entry to the rules in that very same entry, they just seem bland and uninspired (and this is case pretty underwhelming too, especially compared to Flakk Missiles).

In any case thank you for your input and your concerns, they are very appreciated and help me to take a look at the Codex from another angle.

Kain wrote:If I may make a suggestion, perhaps you could give the Nephilim's main gun AP3 like the other Avenger Megabolter around (the one on the Avenger) it would go a long way to making it...not mediocre.

While I know the other Avenger Mega Bolter has AP 3, I don't think AP 3 would be a good move in this situation, as it would turn the flyer into a "must have" unit (a flyer with the capability to take out half of virtually most squads in the game in a single round of shooting just seems way too good to me). There's an old game development saying I use: "if an option feels required than it isn't an option." Older codexs were usually really guilty of this (especially in 5th Edition).

I do appreciate the concern though about the continuity between the Dark Angels Codex and the Imperial Guard Codex, I just don't think in this case it'd work out too well without increasing the cost of the weapon dramatically.

How to fix the DA's fliers then?

As a fan of the first legion, I was a bit disappointed when the big flier kits were attached to...incredibly lackluster units.

Perhaps rending would be good for the megabolter? I don't know why no gatling guns besides the assault cannon have rending even though many of them have a higher ROF than the assault cannon, but this seems like a simple enough fix to the Nephilim to give it a place.

 Kain wrote:
How to fix the DA's fliers then?

As a fan of the first legion, I was a bit disappointed when the big flier kits were attached to...incredibly lackluster units.

Perhaps rending would be good for the megabolter? I don't know why no gatling guns besides the assault cannon have rending even though many of them have a higher ROF than the assault cannon, but this seems like a simple enough fix to the Nephilim to give it a place.

Hmm, Rending may be a better option or even just some rule which mimics the increase AP of the Rending special rule. Let me playtest it a bit, if anyone else would be willing to playtest the Nephalims with this modification as well that would be great, would give me a good cross-section to go by.

 Marik Law wrote:

 Kain wrote:
How to fix the DA's fliers then?

As a fan of the first legion, I was a bit disappointed when the big flier kits were attached to...incredibly lackluster units.

Perhaps rending would be good for the megabolter? I don't know why no gatling guns besides the assault cannon have rending even though many of them have a higher ROF than the assault cannon, but this seems like a simple enough fix to the Nephilim to give it a place.

Hmm, Rending may be a better option or even just some rule which mimics the increase AP of the Rending special rule. Let me playtest it a bit, if anyone else would be willing to playtest the Nephalims with this modification as well that would be great, would give me a good cross-section to go by.

Vassal mayhaps?

I'll also try some mathhammer to see if it's over the top or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vs Chaos Space marines

You get 4.8 wounds but only kill 2.2 on average.

Vs plague marines

3.8 wounds, of which only 1.9 get past the armor save and of which only 1.2~ get by FNP.

vs Tervigon

You get 2.9 wounds, of which only 1.6 get by the armor save, and if it has FNP you only get roughly one wound.

vs Riptide

Same number of wounds inflicted, only 1.296 get by the armor save and if it has FNP you get roughly 0.9 wounds.

vs Plague zombies

You land 4.8 wound, and only kill 3.2

vs Cultists/Guard/Boys/Gaunts

You get 4.8 wounds and kill 4.8 assuming they're in the open.

vs Terminators

You get 4.8 wounds and only kill 1.6 of them

 Marik Law wrote:

While the Dark Angels do have some good points they also have far too many bad options, even when compared to other 6th Edition codex releases. It just didn't feel like GW and the book's writer put enough effort into the codex, which left a lot of units feeling pretty bland and unimaginative.

.

Is that so? Please elaborate.

I'm curious to know what exactly you find restrictive and lacking in customization. I find that there are many different ways to build almost every troop, fast and elite unit to fit different purposes and play styles.

As for the TH/SS change, I find it to be a negative change for the point cost of a TH/SS unit. It's 245 points just to get 5 termies with TH/SS. Typically when one fights with a weapon and shield, the shield is also used as a weapon, which would in theory confer that second attack that they get. Which if they were without the TH/SS they would have both their fists to be fighting with.

Granted, this is coming from someone who has been playing 40k for almost a year and started as DA.

I concur with Whumbachumba here. They will still die to lasguns as frequently as other terminators without their storm shield. On top of that, the TH isn't much better than a power fist (concussive is the only thing it really does). Termies, especially DA termies with TH/SS, with the TH/SS combo give up a lot. They give up any ranged capabilities and in the case of DA, they give up twin-linked guns on DS. If they DS, they can do nothing (bar run to spread out) for a turn.

Actually, I'd go on to argue that almost nobody would use 245 point 5 termies with TH/SS if they had only a single A.

Good points raised all around. Storm Shields will remain the same.