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I have faced quite a few armies and i don't feel like my army is OP. Perhaps it is because i don't have a billion models or the money to throw that down and do everything with them. That said i have fought lizardmen with slann using dwellers on my big units with characters multiple times, teclis in the previous high elves army book, the previous empire army book (3 mortars, 3-4 pidgeon bombs, a cannon and 2 steam tanks back when it was FAQ'd to a super stupid toughness 10 with 10 wounds and a +1 armor save though it was auto-hit and basically you needed to characteristic test it to death to kill it), daemons of chaos back before their new army book and even in the current one and warriors of chaos who have to be seriously under-costed and i heard their current army book makes them 13 points per model for the best core unit in the game.

Now don't get me wrong skaven are at least middle tier and probably top tier but there could be no way they are the best faction hands down. I basically had to keep re-directing a warriors of chaos opponent (mark of khorne) with his frenzied units and shot him with 4 or more warpfire thrower shots which covered a good chunk of each unit esp. when he so stupidly turned so that the flank of each unit would be fully covered by the flame template. He still wins by the end of the game even after i take out about 5 warriors of chaos per shot, 5 or more on the doom rocket and multiple other things because his gorebeast chariots are out killing stuff even though i happened to cause one to flee and it still came back. It's mostly the daemon prince though. I dunno maybe i wasn't prepared for big powerful units but i was trying to make an all comers list. That said by game end i took out 39 of the 40 warriors of chaos and he had few models left on the board but after nearly a full game i lost all but one warlock so i conceded.

With the lizardmen with slann he used 'lore of life' what you guys state is the most OP lore in the BRB which is filled with OP lores of magic once again from what i've heard you guys say. He also uses skinks in the way as described by one guy's battle report that i tell him about. Basically his skink skirmishers shoot into me, flee when i charge them and then re-group and shoot some more. I manage to get up close to his skirmishers and in such a way he can't maneuvre around them and then take them out with charges or in melee. Still facing dwellers continuously on all your units with strength 3 is no fun esp. when it snipes out your wizards and leaders.

I don't even think i have to mention teclis.

Ogres i have a bit of a problem with but i don't face them enough. I handled them ok with the last army book when it was 8th edition but the new one with new stuff i need to fight more to get used to. However except cracks call most magic seems weak against them in the skaven army book. That said warp lightning cannons hit them hard and fantastically.

The rest of the armies i had trouble with admittedly i haven't fought enough (dark elves, daemons). Though i have heard the dark elf witch list is stupidly strong though dark elves do seem fairly potent. Sadly warhammer fantasy seems to have few players in my area and my transportation is limited to one day per week usually on the weekend.

I dunno if i were to throw out armies that aren't that good i'd probably say the old army books (bretonnia and wood elves) which i don't see enough of, orcs & goblins, probably the more recent empire and beastmen (except minotaur lists). I suppose it depends more on the army list that's taken rather than the faction you play sometimes.

I still have a hard time believing skaven to be so strong though. Warriors of chaos can and will steam-roll most opponents once melee hits no matter what they are facing. I suppose my problems would go away if i had 200 slaves taking the brunt of all this but i don't. Maybe i'm just tired of having to pay 5 times as much for a horde army to take on somebody that has the same amount of points.

------------------

Maybe my opponents just use more OP armies than me? To be fair my last opponents were a lizardmen player with a slann and plenty of skinks shooting and retreating over and over and warriors of chaos with mostly mark of khorne and a huge freaking daemon prince with 2 gorebeast chariots. Against the lizardmen player i get dominated by magic but against warriors of chaos i mostly dominate everything but melee which i lose hard in. Also said warriors of chaos player takes 'lore of metal' to give his warriors 'scaly skin' boosting their armor save up to a 2+ armor save if i don't stop it. Not a big deal if we're not in melee range or if i'm only shooting with my warp lightning cannons anyway but still a big deal.

Anyway throw out your opinions for me.

In an uncomped environnment, some armies kick ass, WoChaos, Lizardmen and Skaven are part of those
I mean, you can have 2 HPA + 2 WLC at 2500 pts ... and then you take 4*50-60 strong slave units and your opponents will never break your lines (bar a 10 /w re-roll that you fail ofc)

Chaos with Nurgle DP Lord, Chariot Core and Chimera + SkullCrushers are awful to face, very fast, very deadly

kitted-out Slann (or worse, Yin-Yang Slanns) will crush any magic phase and destroy the opponent's whole army while Skinks will stop the enemy's army from moving (or nearly so)

Those armies have a really bad internal balance that bleeds over to the external balance if left as they are
. Some others are outright brutal (Ogres notably), some are much more balanced (if powerful) like Empire and VC ...

So yes Skaven are very powerful, notably because we have loads of nasty tricks up our sleeves and, if we want, it's nearly impossible to lose with Skaven (maybe not win, but at least not lose).
That's why they are often a "must have" in ETC style tournaments where they are "the" points denial army

I could be wrong but i don't think you can have 4 rare choices in a battle under 3,000 points. Hellpit abominations and warp lightning cannons are both rare choices.

You can't have more than twice the same choice, that makes quite a difference mate

You can't have more than 2 of each kind of rare. So, yes, you can have 2 A-Bombs and 2 WLCs as long as you don't go over 625pts. My friend runs a list with a Seer on Bell, pushed by clanrats, an engineer with doom rocket, A-bombs and Doom Wheels (no WLCs), no slaves at all, some plague monks, couple units of censor bearers, and no losses. The army is fantastic, but you don't need millions of slaves to win with it.

TanKoL wrote:
In an uncomped environnment, some armies kick ass, WoChaos, Lizardmen and Skaven are part of those
I mean, you can have 2 HPA + 2 WLC at 2500 pts

Actually, you cannot.
2x HPA and 2x WLC is 650, which you can only run at 2600 points. If you want the warpspikes for the MR and magical attacks, you're looking at a 2720+ game.
You can go double WLC and double Doom Wheels, but as soon as you take 2 HPA, you are points limited to a single other rare choice.

I don't think that skaven are over-powered, but rather building a list that does well against lizardmen, warriors and high elves isn't a list that does exceptionally well against skaven.

-Matt

Yeah I did an algebra mistake there
2 HPAs tend to be too much anyway if you ask me, more interesting to take a Doomwheel + HPA with the Wheel being better against multi-wounds monsters and the HPA better against units

Skaven are op because they have no weaknesses.
Magic: They have the best spells to choose from hands down. It's almost like someone took the brb and amplified all the best spells. Ohh and most can be cast into combat. Not only that but they have warp stones and a power scroll.

Shooting: WLC for 90 points. Take jezreels to cover them from warmachine hunters. I rarely see other units than this from the really competitive players.

Chaff: super cheap slaves that you can shoot and cast into and explode when they run. Yes please.

Close combat: cheap units that are almost guaranteed steadfast and leadership 10.

Monsters: HPA's can take out entire regiments on there own, regen and can come back after they are killed.

Ohh just in case that wasn't enough they have things like the plague furnace that adds to combat resolution and very strong banners.

NickF509 wrote:
Skaven are op because they have no weaknesses.
Magic: They have the best spells to choose from hands down. It's almost like someone took the brb and amplified all the best spells. Ohh and most can be cast into combat. Not only that but they have warp stones and a power scroll.

Um... First of all, Skaven are 7th edition army book.
Secondly, Shadow & Death magic is a much, much worse than anything the two Skaven lores will achieve. Magic in 8th is all about the augments & hexes - which Ruin & Plague are almost completely devoid of! Plus, Dreaded 13th is one of the worst 'kill-all' spells as it only effects certain unit types, unlike the better 'take x/y/z test or die' spells available to the BRB lores.

NickF509 wrote:
Shooting: WLC for 90 points. Take jezreels to cover them from warmachine hunters. I rarely see other units than this from the really competitive players.

WLC's & Doomwheeles are good. Jezziels not so much because they are rather costly in points and have crap Ld.
Poisoned Wind Globadiers are better actually since they can keep within the Ld bubble of the (likely Ld10) general, plus there's goodies like Plaguewind Mortars, Warpfire throwers and even the Ratling gun that do better.

NickF509 wrote:
Chaff: super cheap slaves that you can shoot and cast into and explode when they run. Yes please.

Yes, Slaves are very annoying.

NickF509 wrote:
Close combat: cheap units that are almost guaranteed steadfast and leadership 10.

Hence why Lore of Death is one of the very lores in the entire game; Death Sniping.
Overall Skaven close combat isn't super scary outside of a couple units. (ie: Monks w/Furnace for example) The problem is that it takes forever to grind away a unit and once you do, you score only a comparatively few VP's.

NickF509 wrote:
Monsters: HPA's can take out entire regiments on there own, regen and can come back after they are killed.

Hence why you always "kill it with FIRE!"
Seriously, the Abomb had it's hay-day last edition. Absolutely every single army now has easy access to an entire unit of Flaming Attacks, not to mention an entire magic lore dedicated to burning things, while most armies also have a magical burny weapon or item or war machine of some kind.

I dare say that the Tomb King sphinxii & the new HE phoenixii are far nastier than the 'ol abomb.

NickF509 wrote:
Ohh just in case that wasn't enough they have things like the plague furnace that adds to combat resolution and very strong banners.

The furnace also hurts the Skaven player, not to mention that every single one of their 'awesome toys' can explode in their collective faces...

Yes Skaven are strong and have some very powerful & undercosted units and such, but they're honestly no more OP than any of the other highly optimised lists out there.

I agree with you that they are no more OP than the other highly optimized lists out there. In fantasy what I really like is the general on either side is the single biggest contributing factor for a win, followed next by luck and finally by army choice.

I personally get frustrated with skaven because I play a monster heavy lizardmen list which in general is a particularly bad matchup against skaven but I've never once felt like I couldn't win (well except for against the players that think the the 13th can be cast into any combat but that's another topic).

well except for against the players that think the the 13th can be cast into any combat but that's another topic

Welcome to the world of old armybooks where spells don't have a specific category and have thus a much larger range of targets
You can even scorch / Crack's Call into a CC, cheesy? Of course, they're rats

Skaven have a handful of undercosted units and a few army-wide rules that make them powerful (strength in numbers, verminous valor). They also have a really huge variety of units that didn't have any comparison until 8th armies came out. So for a whole edition they had way more options than most other armies.

If a few of their units like slaves went up in cost and strength in numbers didn't make their major "weakness" null and void, they would be pretty normal.

Strength in Numbers is kinda like if Ogres only have WS3 and I1 if they aren't carrying weapons, otherwise they are WS5 and I4. I.e., it's not a weakness if it almost never happens.

DukeRustfield wrote:
Skaven have a handful of undercosted units and a few army-wide rules that make them powerful (strength in numbers, verminous valor). They also have a really huge variety of units that didn't have any comparison until 8th armies came out. So for a whole edition they had way more options than most other armies.

If a few of their units like slaves went up in cost and strength in numbers didn't make their major "weakness" null and void, they would be pretty normal.

Strength in Numbers is kinda like if Ogres only have WS3 and I1 if they aren't carrying weapons, otherwise they are WS5 and I4. I.e., it's not a weakness if it almost never happens.

Not really. Least strength in numbers isn't something terrible like say cold-blooded. Seeing skinks purposely flee only to re-group and shoot you is annoying like you wouldn't believe.

Strength in numbers is only effective if skaven can count ranks. This means when they are fleeing they don't count ranks, when they are in forests they can't be steadfast (i think you can still count ranks for leadership but if you're not steadfast it doesn't even matter) and rivers where you lose ranks and can never be steadfast. Not only that but for units like skirmishers and scouts (the thing that gives skaven any speed remotely in its army) they are generally far away from the general or don't count ranks or both. Sure plague censer bearers are frenzied however that's horrible if you don't have plague monks nearby giving a rank bonus and a BSB nearby or at least a general instead of the rank bonus though all 3 are needed. Also yes it has to be the plague monks own ranks and it has to be within about 6" of them to get it. You might find that unnecessary to have all this and it normally would be if you couldn't normally bait the crap out of this unit.

The fact skaven need their general, ranks and BSB for leadership means that everything you face will be in a big ball. Nothing we have is fast except maybe the hellpit and the doomwheel and both are random movement. If you can deal with the poor leadership on skirmishers you should get them to run at the very least and get out of position. Not to mention jezzails are pretty poor leadership too unless you basically stand and shoot all game and there are armies that can do it better or throw them into a building with like fozzrik's folding fortress. Also the hellpit abomination isn't immune to psychology and the warp lightning cannons (generally on higher ground) can fail panic tests and not shoot for a turn.

Skaven and their rank bonus matters sometimes but not on monsters or skirmishers. Also like i said generally forests, rivers, units already fleeing and such-like are also bad for skaven. Also forcing a model to take it's base leadership as a check in a duel like against a lizardmen hero with a certain weapon is also pretty deadly.

Also for any saying skaven are "the best 7th edition army" is kind of funny. It was the second last army book released in 7th if i remember correctly. It was an army book designed for 7th mostly that had to compete in 8th. People say it was designed with 8th in mind but only slightly. This is one reason why doom flayers suck so bad. In 7th they might actually be ok.

I also don't entirely mind that my army book has certain odd rules to its spells and i find it odd others might complain about skaven magic. You guys do realize if skaven magic had 'boosted' versions of its spells like most 8th army books do that i could probably death frenzy anything within a certain range, i'd have boosted versions of scorch to where it'd probably use the large round template and possibly strength 5 or something and poisoned attacks would effect multiple units too for that spell. Most spells would be boosted or have that ability. Also i'd have a lore attribute for both of my skaven lores of magic making their spells that much better. Then there's the fact skitterleap would probably be the skaven signature spell or that each wizard gets each of its current substituted spells as its signature. This means i could cast skitterleap as much as i wished esp. if i substituted a spell for it in which case a grey seer would always have access to it and could cast wizards around even more for more ridiculous shenanigans than ever before. Also god help you if they ever allow weapons teams to be skitterleaped around the field. You get multiple weapons teams skitterleaping around and bam you have to deal with all those different units or suffer the consequences next player turn's shooting phase or similar.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:
Skaven have a handful of undercosted units and a few army-wide rules that make them powerful (strength in numbers, verminous valor). They also have a really huge variety of units that didn't have any comparison until 8th armies came out. So for a whole edition they had way more options than most other armies.

If a few of their units like slaves went up in cost and strength in numbers didn't make their major "weakness" null and void, they would be pretty normal.

Strength in Numbers is kinda like if Ogres only have WS3 and I1 if they aren't carrying weapons, otherwise they are WS5 and I4. I.e., it's not a weakness if it almost never happens.

Not really. Least strength in numbers isn't something terrible like say cold-blooded. Seeing skinks purposely flee only to re-group and shoot you is annoying like you wouldn't believe.

I am pretty sure Duke has played 1 or 2 games against LM. As did I. Same as Skaven. Strenght in Numbers along with 8th's steadfast made Skaven ridiculously overpowered. You will always have army-wide LD 10, if you don't, you're a bad player. Slaves are way undercosted and should get Instability to balance their way too high cost-effectiveness out.

The HPA is a slap in the face and I still think that it's some kind of inside joke we did not get yet. The 13th is incredibly strong, same goes for one of the best mounts in the game, the Bell. Tie stuff up with Slaves, shoot them down, mop up the rest with ranged weapons. There, that's your quick guide to the Skaven army.

Note: we're talking of competitive power levels here.

 Sigvatr wrote:

I am pretty sure Duke has played 1 or 2 games against LM. As did I. Same as Skaven. Strenght in Numbers along with 8th's steadfast made Skaven ridiculously overpowered. You will always have army-wide LD 10, if you don't, you're a bad player. Slaves are way undercosted and should get Instability to balance their way too high cost-effectiveness out.

The HPA is a slap in the face and I still think that it's some kind of inside joke we did not get yet. The 13th is incredibly strong, same goes for one of the best mounts in the game, the Bell. Tie stuff up with Slaves, shoot them down, mop up the rest with ranged weapons. There, that's your quick guide to the Skaven army.

Note: we're talking of competitive power levels here.

To be fair, bringing back the Crown of Command was a dumb idea and BSB's are too effective. (ie: imho, the 're-roll all failed Ld tests' trait should only apply to the unit the BSB is in, while everyone else within 12" gets the basic re-roll break tests bonus) Add Steadfast to the mix and yes, what should be the Skaven's main weakness all but evaporates. (but then same is true for everyone!)
For the most part, psychology in 8th is a bad joke and most people only worry about it when they're up against an opponent who has Ld-fudging abilities like Doom & Darkness/Aura of Dark Majesty/Slaanesh magic, etc...
I mean, having played VC's & Daemons through all of 8th, I can count on 1 hand the number of times opponents have actually failed those Fear tests when I haven't had any of those Ld reducing abilities in effect.

I wouldn't say to give Slaves the Instability rule though as it makes no sense really... Rather, just cost them appropriately! Even if they were double their current cost, Skaven players would still bring them simply because they're really that good.
Being able to shoot into their combats, plus ignoring any panic they might otherwise cause would still be huge buffs to any Skaven army.


As for the Abomb, I think it's honestly a bit over shadowed now by newer monsters like the TK Sphinx and HE Frosthearts. Both of those are a lot harder to deal with, with the Frostheart easily taking the crown of 'best monster' in the game now. (Chill Aura effectively makes it T7 in combat + the ASL de-buff AND whatever bonus it picks up from the magic phase.)
While a pair of Abombs is still really mean, it also means there's likely only 1 other Skaven Rare choice about meaning you're not up against something like 2x WLC's + 2x Doomweels/Plagueclaws.
And a single Abomb should not be much a problem nowadays with the amount of Flaming Attacks most armies can bring...

I didn't even think about their spells. The fact they aren't classified as anything means they fall into the big bucket of they only have the limitations that the spell explicitly lists, which means pretty much nothing. I don't know why they don't simply FAQ more, it would take almost no effort to clean up the spells.

Skaven are supposed to have really horrible LD, but in practice they really don't. As stated, steadfast + strength in numbers is a huge LD even without general or BSB. And they are almost always going to be steadfast unless they're facing goblins or something.

In any case, I don't think the army is broken. Not like 7th edition teclis broken or 7th edition daemons broken. They got some annoyances. Maybe at the competitive level they are more broken, because people really do bring 400 slaves. But I've never seen that many or even close. It's the Law of Lotsa Model Painting.

I still think skaven spells mostly aren't that big of a deal. We have no lore attribute, no signature spells we can use multiples of per turn and we have no boosted versions of our spells. This means instead of having 2 or 3 versions of a more powerful scorch we instead have a 24" small blast flame template. Most of our spells are low cost but many aren't super good. I mean 'bless with filth' (poisoned attacks in melee) only effects one unit until your next player magic phase. Considering this is 8th you could have everybody in a certain range effected with an even better boosted version of the spell.

Also like you guys have already stated the 13th spell is only really good vs elite infantry based armies which honestly are better dealt with by plague anyway. When they finally FAQ'd out that it had to be infantry and not monstrous infantry any hope of using it effectively vs ogres or minotaurs or anything it'd really be disgusting against vanished. Now it's only really good vs units of high elves and warriors of chaos and honestly plague is infinitely easier to cast, allows you to use more magic dice for other spells and won't end your high level wizard's magic when it most likely fails anyway.

Honestly 'cracks call' and 'plague' are infinitely stronger and better than the 13th can ever hope to be most of the time and with such a high casting value it's a waste to even use it unless you have a power scroll or something. I'm saying cracks call because cracks call can snipe monsters, monstrous infantry and cavalry without allowing any saves depending of course on initiative but usually most have average or worse initiative unless you face elves or warriors of chaos.

The biggest complaint I have ever received about my Skaven from people I have played was that slaves are just too cheap, (That and one game against Dark Elves where my Abomb managed to get back up twice after dying but that's just luck of the dice). Skaven will get an update sooner or later and they will most likely get the GW special, old solid units are nerfed, and the new expensive toys are amazing. Though as I always joke I will simply be excited to get some new models for my Ratmen.

 sandant wrote:
The biggest complaint I have ever received about my Skaven from people I have played was that slaves are just too cheap, (That and one game against Dark Elves where my Abomb managed to get back up twice after dying but that's just luck of the dice). Skaven will get an update sooner or later and they will most likely get the GW special, old solid units are nerfed, and the new expensive toys are amazing. Though as I always joke I will simply be excited to get some new models for my Ratmen.

Meh. Skaven have been considered one of the cheesiest armies in the game since 5th edition... somehow I doubt that a new book will really change that view of them!

MUST RESIST..... we can't have more than 2 Skaven=rats=cheese jokes in one thread.

 sandant wrote:
MUST RESIST..... we can't have more than 2 Skaven=rats=cheese jokes in one thread.

Go ahead. We all know you're the biggest cheese-mongering cheeser on a cheese-mobile if there ever was one. I mean with you it's more like would you like some wine to go with that cheese rather than the other way around ;P.

Abombs got a lot worse with step up and supporting attacks. T5 regen isn't as tough with 2 ranks swinging on you.
Slaves are awesome, but critically need the generals leadership, which tends to crowd them around the center. They also can't take a flank charge, which other crap buses can.

IMO, gnoblars are more effective because they panic nobody, and can be taken in multiple units for far less points, and can operate without the general around.
Taking the Seer on the Bell does give you a big bubble of leadership, but the Bell (and furnace) still have a rule where it can be singled out with shooting. I've done very well with terrorgheists picking off seerers/bells out of the units.

T5 regen W6 is better than nearly any monster in the game at that cost, who is also LD8 and stubborn, and as killy as it is. There are some stuff that are arguably as killy (like Chimeras are close) but their LD sucks butt. Or stuff that has as much defense, but they can't throw out 3D6 attacks.

DukeRustfield wrote:
T5 regen W6 is better than nearly any monster in the game at that cost, who is also LD8 and stubborn, and as killy as it is. There are some stuff that are arguably as killy (like Chimeras are close) but their LD sucks butt. Or stuff that has as much defense, but they can't throw out 3D6 attacks.

It also isn't immune to psychology, won't benefit from 'strength in numbers' and unless it has a BSB has just a whopping Ld 8 which can't be boosted by anything really. You could just throw one or two panic tests at it and watch it run away. It's not entirely unlikely to have happen. You just need to learn your enemy more. For instance i used to not know quite a few factions and now i'm fairly experienced at facing them (lizardmen, O&G, warriors of chaos and old army book for ogres). I still need to face daemons and all elf armies more. I was somewhat familiar with the old high elves before the new army book though.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:
T5 regen W6 is better than nearly any monster in the game at that cost, who is also LD8 and stubborn, and as killy as it is. There are some stuff that are arguably as killy (like Chimeras are close) but their LD sucks butt. Or stuff that has as much defense, but they can't throw out 3D6 attacks.

It also isn't immune to psychology, won't benefit from 'strength in numbers' and unless it has a BSB has just a whopping Ld 8 which can't be boosted by anything really. You could just throw one or two panic tests at it and watch it run away. It's not entirely unlikely to have happen. You just need to learn your enemy more. For instance i used to not know quite a few factions and now i'm fairly experienced at facing them (lizardmen, O&G, warriors of chaos and old army book for ogres). I still need to face daemons and all elf armies more. I was somewhat familiar with the old high elves before the new army book though.

Are you implying that Duke doesn't know how to play Skaven? Tell us about your personal competitive experience then

LD 8 is suddenly bad, ok, and "just throwing a few panic test" at it certainly is a very good idea. Like, imagine all those armies that can easily spam panic tests. All of them! Sure, you got a 28% chance to succeed. Without BSB. With BSB nearby, panic tests become useless again. Forcing panic tests isn't as easy in WHFB as it is in, e.g., 40k.

To fix Skaven, up the WLC points cost by ~20 pts, make Skaven cost 3 pts / model, rework SiN (e.g. by ignoring the first 3 ranks or sth.)...and fix the basic rules, i.e. limiting max. unit size to ~50, fixing Steadfast etc etc. On a competitive level, Skaven are in dire need of a nerf.

I'm not saying I'm a Skaven expert. I'm not. I'm just pointing out Abombs compared to other monsters.

I compared them to Chimeras, who are super killy beasts. They are LD 5. That's FIVE. Without ITP/Stubborn/anything. Whatever panic test you were going to use on an Abomb will work a whole lot better vs. a Chimera.

LD8 Stubborn is nice on a monster. They usually take the tactic of giving a monster mega attacks, and letting it survive by not losing combat ever (and thus suck LD) or good defenses and not so great attacks. Or monsters that are kind of buff beasts. Ogre monsters are LD7 and don't even do very good attacks.

Abombs are really good monsters. I think it's pretty hard to say they aren't. The only thing that hurts them IMHO, is more units overall being Flammable or having Regen and thus you see more Flaming Attacks in armies.

The spider is an example of a nasty monster in combat

But i agree with duke.
Monsters allways fit into those catagories, but the Abomb has a way to get between those catagories and get more than a good average from each.

Duke - Ogre monsters are pretty different though.
Tango is a solid battering ram that shakes off cannons and smashes through units, while frosty helps all of the units around it and has a bit of hitting power.




With skaven i see the point people are getting at, and its easy to abuse LD and slaves, but i simply use it to make up for not so good units.
Taking 2-3 blocks of cheap slaves means i can run a sub-par unit without draining my army.

Also, someone keeps on about the amazing weapons.
They are aware that they tend to blow up pretty damn often right?
Or just get sniped.
Skaven "Oh gak" charts as i call them know no forgiveness.
And usually result in plenty of damage to your own army.

Also, shooting into combat is nice, but shots are randomised.
Your not going to waste time shooting a weak unit in combat, so your allways going to be going for elite units to pin and shoot.
Those elite units will take the shots alot better than the slaves will.
So, by the time the enemy has hammered them, you have shot them to bits, you may have killed the unit, but your once solid slave unit will be pretty cut down and wont be holding out for too long afterwards.

I play skaven more so for the sheer fun from it, hence why i run a vermin lord from time to time (usually takes a cannonball or 2 but oh well)
Nearly everything has a chance to go wrong or fail to some degree, so you cant make any solid plans like you can with another army.

Doom rockets are amazing when they go off, not so amazing when you nuke your own unit though.

Fellblade, well, its amazing, but you more than likely wont make it into combat to swing with it before it kills your warlord.

Its a risk army if you want some fun toys, but its a fun army to play none the less.
I just hope that when they change it they dont kill off the fun aspect of the army.

 Jackal wrote:

Also, someone keeps on about the amazing weapons.
They are aware that they tend to blow up pretty damn often right?
Or just get sniped.
Skaven "Oh gak" charts as i call them know no forgiveness.
And usually result in plenty of damage to your own army.

There's no such as a disastrous misfire - simply think of it as a catastrophic success!


In all seriousness, Doomflayers (or whatever the big spiky wheel-thing is called!), Jezzails & the Ratling Gun are pretty pants while the Warpfire Thrower is more of an intimidation toy.
But all three rare choices are pretty solid, while the Poisoned Wind Mortar is simply devastatingly effective and Globadiers are at worst useful.

Overall the Skaven wonder toys are pretty good for what you pay, even when they explode in your face.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Overall the Skaven wonder toys are pretty good for what you pay, even when they explode in your face.

Yeah, I think they costed weapons teams really well. And that takes into consideration them blowing up. Though I think you're harder on some stuff. I like Ratling gun. Just break out the math and don't get too greedy. 2 dice is what, 1/6 chance of bad, 7 shots avg at full 18" range, 4S -2 save. That's sort of paying 8pts per BS 3 shot. The mishap chance is offset by the more-than-good shooting characteristics of the weapon.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Jackal wrote:

Also, someone keeps on about the amazing weapons.
They are aware that they tend to blow up pretty damn often right?
Or just get sniped.
Skaven "Oh gak" charts as i call them know no forgiveness.
And usually result in plenty of damage to your own army.

There's no such as a disastrous misfire - simply think of it as a catastrophic success!


In all seriousness, Doomflayers (or whatever the big spiky wheel-thing is called!), Jezzails & the Ratling Gun are pretty pants while the Warpfire Thrower is more of an intimidation toy.
But all three rare choices are pretty solid, while the Poisoned Wind Mortar is simply devastatingly effective and Globadiers are at worst useful.

Overall the Skaven wonder toys are pretty good for what you pay, even when they explode in your face.

All fair points Skaven don't have bad toys just sub optimal ones.

Also Remember the Fellblade is a one use Item. Use it one game and never again because once people know you have it they will modify their list to stop it. MY fellblade warlord destroyed a unit of skullcrushers. the next game when i had changed his loadout a BSB with the ASF sword slammed into the Warlords unit.