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I'm not entirely sure this belongs here,
But...
Do you guys think the gift of mutation (roll on boon table at the start of the game) is worth it? Does it ever come in handy, or is it a "it can't hurt" sort if thing...

Played against a dude the other day on vassal, first turn he done boon on himself got ID on his melee weapons, next turn he did it again and got eternal warrior. On a daemon prince with black mace! made him pretty darn tough to be honest as I was planning on smash attacking with one of my princes to insta kill him, not after that though!

It's 10 points for basically a lottery. I mostly remember getting bonuses like Hatred on my Lord with VOTL or Hammer of Wrath on my DP. I always think it's worth it just because it's 10 points for a chance for something that can be well worth it. +1AS, EW, and a few others. I try not to look at what's available and just roll, expecting crap. The right outlook can change a lot.

It is the potential for a 10pt daemon prince

 hey801 wrote:
It is the potential for a 10pt daemon prince

Er...I believe the gift of mutation explicitly states you have to re-roll any results of Dark Apotheosis (Daemon Prince result) and Spawnhood results. So no it's more of a 10 point gamble on the slots to see if you get certain buffs. If it was otherwise people would spam the crap out of gift of mutation on all their aspiring/unit champions so that they would have a chance to get an/some extra daemon prince(s).

It will not give you a DP -- it specifically says to reroll both Spawn and DP results.

I actually kind of like the Boon table if you use it as a somewhat crappier and more random version of the Daemonic Rewards that you always get for your Greater Daemons in the CD codex. Yeah, they're not the amazingness of the Greater Rewards table, but you can do some interesting things with your characters if you start them buffed once (or twice if possible).

I wish Daemon princes could get chaos boons besides Gift of mutation(starting price or through Tzeentch) Unless you roll 64 you are usually stuck with one since they lack champion of chaos

For ten points it's a fine option especially if you're a little shy

10 points for something that is going to be useful most of the time is a decent place to put some filler.

While not all the abilities are amazing, you can't argue with the price tag.


The only thing that sucks is rolling Apotheosis/Spawn during the game on your Chaos Lord who suddenly forgets how to use all his cool gear. But its nice on your champions.

I say take it for fun. You want it on anyone who will be in midfield to your opponent's deployment zone. Someone who will be in close combat.

It can be amazing sometimes and do nothing 1/6 of the time.

If you take possessed take both GoM on the champ... the chance to roll a 64 and get D3+1 more rolls on the chart is just too good to pass up.

Agreed, take it for fun but don't expect anything amazing out of it. When you do, it'll be a pleasant surprise.
One way to do it would be to take all your units as normal, then when you only have 30/40 points left (not enough for another unit) smatter some Champions with Boons to round out the points limit.

I never take it on squad leaders, it's the crappiest investment IMO. But on a DP or build me HQ. Always.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
. I try not to look at what's available and just roll, expecting crap.

This +1.

I take them on every champ and lord.

One day, it will make them evil.

If you have 10 points to spare, and a daemon prince, it's the best thing to stick on it. The chance to get something useful, is worth 10 points that otherwise would go on a meltabomb on a sarge you never expect to assault a tank or something, so the chance of something usefull, is better than the guarantee of a bit of wargear you won't use 9/10 anyway

 bmward105 wrote:
I'm not entirely sure this belongs here,
But...
Do you guys think the gift of mutation (roll on boon table at the start of the game) is worth it? Does it ever come in handy, or is it a "it can't hurt" sort if thing...

it is not worth 10 points. Over half the results are worthless, half of what is left is worth 5 points at best. You then have some nice things but it is extremely boom or bust. (EW on a 1 wound model, ID/fleshbane on a powerfist, etc)

 Goat wrote:
I never take it on squad leaders, it's the crappiest investment IMO. But on a DP or build me HQ. Always.

Agreed. Gift of Mutation is over priced for squad leaders, but just right for HQs.

You of course wont get EW every time, but the odds of getting something beneficial are decent.

GorillaWarfare wrote:

 Goat wrote:
I never take it on squad leaders, it's the crappiest investment IMO. But on a DP or build me HQ. Always.

Agreed. Gift of Mutation is over priced for squad leaders, but just right for HQs.

You of course wont get EW every time, but the odds of getting something beneficial are decent.

The odds of getting something beneficial are a little better than 50%
The odds of having to pay for that privilege is 100%
The odds of the benefit being worth the cost are very very low.

I'd rather take a pair of melta bombs or TL Bolters onfor Rhinos for the same price.

 Exergy wrote:

GorillaWarfare wrote:

 Goat wrote:
I never take it on squad leaders, it's the crappiest investment IMO. But on a DP or build me HQ. Always.

Agreed. Gift of Mutation is over priced for squad leaders, but just right for HQs.

You of course wont get EW every time, but the odds of getting something beneficial are decent.

The odds of getting something beneficial are a little better than 50%
The odds of having to pay for that privilege is 100%
The odds of the benefit being worth the cost are very very low.

On average I end up with something useful, the last time I had Gift of Mutation I got Hammer of Wrath on my Chaos Lord, then through some dead striking scorpion squad leaders, I had +1 Toughness, +1 to Armor Save, and Shred, couple that with the Hatred I rolled on the Warlord table it was fantastic to run around on a bike with a 2+ armor save, a 4++, t7, and some nice combat bonuses ... And then I was assaulted by a Wraithknight and he took me out after a bit of back and forth

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

GorillaWarfare wrote:

 Goat wrote:
I never take it on squad leaders, it's the crappiest investment IMO. But on a DP or build me HQ. Always.

Agreed. Gift of Mutation is over priced for squad leaders, but just right for HQs.

You of course wont get EW every time, but the odds of getting something beneficial are decent.

The odds of getting something beneficial are a little better than 50%
The odds of having to pay for that privilege is 100%
The odds of the benefit being worth the cost are very very low.

On average I end up with something useful, the last time I had Gift of Mutation I got Hammer of Wrath on my Chaos Lord, then through some dead striking scorpion squad leaders, I had +1 Toughness, +1 to Armor Save, and Shred, couple that with the Hatred I rolled on the Warlord table it was fantastic to run around on a bike with a 2+ armor save, a 4++, t7, and some nice combat bonuses ... And then I was assaulted by a Wraithknight and he took me out after a bit of back and forth

so about the gift of mutation. You got hammer of wrath. You say your lord was already on a bike. Bikes have hammer of wrath by default.

So you paid 10 points for gift of mutation. >>Rolled HoW
So you paid 10 points for hammer of wrath >>Already had HoW
So you paid 10 points for nothing >>sounds useful

It's 10 points for a potential advantage. You might get Hatred or Stubborn on your Dark Apostle, but you could get Reroll armor saves on your Termie Lord.

If you have the extra points, I say throw it on your HQs. It could do nothing, but it won't hinder your HQ.

 Exergy wrote:
so about the gift of mutation. You got hammer of wrath. You say your lord was already on a bike. Bikes have hammer of wrath by default.

So you paid 10 points for gift of mutation. >>Rolled HoW
So you paid 10 points for hammer of wrath >>Already had HoW
So you paid 10 points for nothing >>sounds useful

Yeah, the gift of mutation didn't work out that 1 time. The other three times I rolled on the table, it worked out pretty well in my case. It didn't matter that I rolled HoW anyways, I always forget the rule...

If you have 10 points, there's no reason not to take it just because it can either be a wash, or it can be immensely useful to your character. It's the safest way to roll on the table anyways, not having to worry about the Daemon Prince or Spawn results...

It's too random to rely on. Not the worst possible waste of 10 points, though.

That said... there's no limit to the number of them you can take. I've suddenly got the strangest boner for the idea of a blind fury juggerlord with 10 gifts of mutation. And since pre-game rolls have a 0% chance of accidentally turning into a spawn...

 Ailaros wrote:
It's too random to rely on. Not the worst possible waste of 10 points, though.

That said... there's no limit to the number of them you can take. I've suddenly got the strangest boner for the idea of a blind fury juggerlord with 10 gifts of mutation. And since pre-game rolls have a 0% chance of accidentally turning into a spawn...

"Sir, he's got ALL the special rules?"

"All of them private?"

"ALL OF THEM!"

"Damn...looks like we'll need to phone in the Tau, tell them to bring those missile hoses."

I never noticed you can purchase more than 1 Gift on HQ models.

So, I just sat down and did a few rolls as if I'd payed 100 points for 10 gifts of mutation.

The end result is absurd.

The first time, the lord or sorcerer in question got a rerollable 2+ armor save, eternal warrior, instant death, shred, poison, FNP, and a big pile of other goodies (+1WS and BS, +1 deny the witch, etc.)

Just think about that for a moment. A WS6/7 model with a weapon that is poisoned, and rerolls to wound on that poison, and if any of the attacks stick, they cause instant death. On a model with EW and a rerollable 2+ armor save. And if it's a sorcerer, invisibility and psychic shriek. Holy heck.

The next time I did it, it was worse, but still absurd, getting +2S, hatred, and ID, among other abilities. The third time I practically died laughing. The second of my rolls was for +D3+1 more rolls (something that you've got like a 1/3rd chance of getting with 10 tries), and in those 4 extra rolls, one of them was ALSO for extra rolls. It's like asking a genie for more wishes.

Is it worth the 100 points? I don't know, but I almost think it's a viable strategy. You basically take a ~220 point model, and he comprehensively butchers anything he touches.

The only problem I can see is that the more dice you roll, the greater your odds of getting a duplicate. In each of my three attempts I rolled a gift that can't make use of duplicates (like shred or adamantium will or icy aura) more than once. That said, there ARE some things like +WS and +S that DO stack...

 Exergy wrote:

So you paid 10 points for gift of mutation. >>Rolled HoW
So you paid 10 points for hammer of wrath >>Already had HoW
So you paid 10 points for nothing >>sounds useful

With that ten points, as other posters have pointed out, there are other things I could get. I could get some meltabombs... but then I may never get to assault a tank, my opponent may not even bring any. I could get TL bolters on my Rhino... I could fluff the to wound rolls with those bolters, or said Rhino could get blown up before I have a chance to even move it.

Saying that Gift of Mutation sucks because you may get something useless is stupid. Everything and anything I take may turn out to be a waste of points, whether its an upgrade or even a whole unit. The entire game of 40k is very much hinged upon luck, so you can't fault the Gift of Mutation for the same reason. As the Gift of Mutation costs a mere 10 points, I usually find it is worth taking. It is not unlikely that I'll get something useless, in which case I've wasted the points, but only 10 points. I may, however, get something useful.

 Ailaros wrote:
So, I just sat down and did a few rolls as if I'd payed 100 points for 10 gifts of mutation.

The end result is absurd.

The first time, the lord or sorcerer in question got a rerollable 2+ armor save, eternal warrior, instant death, shred, poison, FNP, and a big pile of other goodies (+1WS and BS, +1 deny the witch, etc.)

Just think about that for a moment. A WS6/7 model with a weapon that is poisoned, and rerolls to wound on that poison, and if any of the attacks stick, they cause instant death. On a model with EW and a rerollable 2+ armor save. And if it's a sorcerer, invisibility and psychic shriek. Holy heck.

The next time I did it, it was worse, but still absurd, getting +2S, hatred, and ID, among other abilities. The third time I practically died laughing. The second of my rolls was for +D3+1 more rolls (something that you've got like a 1/3rd chance of getting with 10 tries), and in those 4 extra rolls, one of them was ALSO for extra rolls. It's like asking a genie for more wishes.

Is it worth the 100 points? I don't know, but I almost think it's a viable strategy. You basically take a ~220 point model, and he comprehensively butchers anything he touches.

The only problem I can see is that the more dice you roll, the greater your odds of getting a duplicate. In each of my three attempts I rolled a gift that can't make use of duplicates (like shred or adamantium will or icy aura) more than once. That said, there ARE some things like +WS and +S that DO stack...

Yeah I just posted in YMDC to see what people think if it's possible. I mean the HQs don't have a restriction on the # of gifts they can purchase like a warp talon bro or normal champion. I'd think if they say you can't buy more than 2 gifts, how can you purchase 2 lightning claws since (pair) isn't an option if my memory serves.

As others have said, it's okay and reasonably cheap, but an extra toss away weapon on a vehicle is almost always better, going from a PF to a CF is usually better, giving a character a combi-plasma is usually better, or giving MoN to a squad of spawn or Oblits is usually better, and all can run about the same points.

Much like raptors, it's not a bad choice in a vacuum, but it competes against much better choices.

 The Shadow wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

So you paid 10 points for gift of mutation. >>Rolled HoW
So you paid 10 points for hammer of wrath >>Already had HoW
So you paid 10 points for nothing >>sounds useful

With that ten points, as other posters have pointed out, there are other things I could get. I could get some meltabombs... but then I may never get to assault a tank, my opponent may not even bring any. I could get TL bolters on my Rhino... I could fluff the to wound rolls with those bolters, or said Rhino could get blown up before I have a chance to even move it.

Saying that Gift of Mutation sucks because you may get something useless is stupid. Everything and anything I take may turn out to be a waste of points, whether its an upgrade or even a whole unit. The entire game of 40k is very much hinged upon luck, so you can't fault the Gift of Mutation for the same reason. As the Gift of Mutation costs a mere 10 points, I usually find it is worth taking. It is not unlikely that I'll get something useless, in which case I've wasted the points, but only 10 points. I may, however, get something useful.

Of course anything could be useless, any model you take could be killed before it sees any real action. Even the very best rolls you can get can also be useless.
You could get ID, and then not get into combat with any multi wounded models without EW.
You could get EW and then only take wounds that dont cause ID.
You could get +5 attacks and strength, but only get into combat with units you were going to trounce anyway.

Assuming you have everything maxed out, and you have 10 points leftover I guess there isnt much you can do.
But say you have 5 CSM with no weapon. You could give them a meltagun.
You could give you blob of cultists 2 flamers
You could upgrade a flamer to a plasma gun on PM or CSM
You could get 1, maybe 2 units VotLW
You could upgrade a power axe into a powerfist
You could add 2 additional cultists
You could almost add an entire CSM.
All of these things could do nothing, but before turn 1 they have a chance to do something. Half the rolls on the boon table have no chance to do anything even before the game starts.