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This is sort of a strange topic for me to be posting. I have been a Dark Angels player for almost a decade and have been using Deathwing in my armies just as long. In 4th/5th my Deathwing/Ravenwing army was my pride and joy and I really liked them. However, with this recent codex, it seems that no matter what I do my Deathwing are just really bad. They fall over to almost any other unit I put them against with maybe the exception of other marines, and seem to do inconsequential damage in return.

So I ask you, what is up with them? Below are the squads I usually run and what I run and how I use them. In the past few games I have all but been tabled (one I was, but that was just a 1000 point list for fun) when running them. Maybe it's just the matchups I was going against, but no matter what I kit them out with, nothing seems to help. I know Deathwing aren't the most competitive, but at this point I don't even know why I bother taking them anymore, they seem that bad.

Deathwing Squad 1
- TH/SS x 4
- Assault cannon

Deathwing Squad 2 & 3
- Sgt w/ Sword and SB
- TH/SS
- PF+SB+CML
- SB + CF
- SB+PF

Typically I run these guys with Belial or Azrael and a vet squad in drop pod, and have backup in the form of two whirlwinds and/or sniper scouts with an aegis. I usually deep strike at whatever they are going to have a good chance at killing, that is a high value target. Typically things like HQ squads, bikers, or medium-low model high cost units. The problem is that they can't do enough damage to kill that whole unit, or kill it then get whittled down in one turn by the mass of troops guarding that HQ. Plus, if i targeted the infantry squads (usually blobs of 30+ guardsmen) they can only kill about 6 guys, which is NOTHING in comparison. That squad hits them with volleys of fire, lascannons, and some plasma and they all die. Not even close. Same happens with the TH/SS guys. Opponent does about 10 wounds, i lose a few guys, then lose the rest bc of apt weapons and the whole squad is down. Average turn results in me gettign about 6 kills from shooting and then losing around 4 terminators. It's pathetic.

So, any advice on what to do differently? I've heard a lot of "all TH/SS or bust" but it seems that my TH/SS are the most useless of them all. They drop, and fail their 2+ saves and are down just like any other terminator. At least the shooty ones get to do something back.

Are other people having similar experiences?

- VardenV2

Are you loosing against blobb guard? Or a wide variety of lists?

I could understand blobb guard taking you as your list seems to have only 2 whirlwinds to deal with hordes. I am curious however as to how those are doing in terms of damage.

I would drop the vets in a pod. They just are too fragile and don't put out the damage necessary. You can use the points for better purposes.

How are you dropping your termies? All together to turn a flank or scattered across the board? It is usually better to turn a flank as scattered across the board usually just means the squads die after doing tiny scratches on a bunch of units.

One squad that could be a big help is belial + 10 man termie with 2 HF. They land where you want and eat horde units for breakfast.

I usually take 2 TH/SS termies and 1 PF/SB or LC termie so I can put 1 TH/SS, 1 PF/SB, then 1 TH/SS in that order to take shots. This helps to conserve you TH/SS termies so the opponent cannot assign shots as efficiently. I agree overall though that DA termies should have at least 2 TH/SS termies in it.

Generally I am running them against a flank. The Whirlwinds are actually the star of the list, as they can take out big chunks of hordes relatively easily.

Typical enemy is 2-3 guard blobs, two vendettas with plasma/melta vets, marbo, and sometimes a vindicare from allies etc.

Also, Tau seems to be the most prevalent army at my local GW now and they absolutely eat my army alive. Almost every list has at least 2 riptides, and they single handedly seem to counter my list.

I have considered combining the shooting squads into one big 10 man squad + Belial. Then using a Land Raider for the TH/SS ones so that they are safe and can charge.

I am also working on getting some Ravenwing or a command squad with the FNP banner because the sheer amount of lasgun/firewarrior wounds is just overwhelming my guys. Even when I have to take 6 saves I get nervous because i usually lose 1-2.

As for the vet squad, they are there for a fun unit. They seemed to do pretty good except against triple riptides (but nothing I had would do good). Usually it is some gunslinger vets, flamers, and Azrael + Librarian for divination, auspex reduces cov er, and then the 4++ invul for the squad. Lots of attacks on the charge and are supposed to be a bullet sponge. They do their job pretty well.

It's just frustrating because I will often drop 3+ squads right on the same flank of my enemy and he will have enough firepower to kill almost all of them. I'm not sending them piecemeal or anything. Its over half my army ~ 15+ terminator models showing up on turn one, on their flank, and they still just get blown away.

- VardenV2

Deathwing are awful unfortunately. They're a low model count army with 2+ saves in a meta where everybody spams Plasma Guns. That's pretty much all there is to it.

Drop Belial with a 10 man squad with 2 HF and the rest SB/PF. 20 twin linked rounds and 2 twin linked heavy flamers will do serious damage, I promise. Your opponent now has to deal with 11 termies in his deployment zone while the rest of your list can do whatever you design it to do.

It's worked for me fairly well. Just avoid serious anti terminator stuff (a hellbrute killed 8 in one turn once..).

Terminators ceased to be competitive when 6th dropped. Terminators are below average at combating large swaths of infantry, which is what the game has mostly turned into. Their shooting is also too lackluster in an edition that favors armies that can put out rate of fire.

Tau unfortunately are brutal to DW lists. LR with DW knights are the best units against Tau. You may want to think of adding one and running a PFG behind specifically to help counter tau and gunlines. The other benefit of this unit is that you can turn it to show side and block the riptides' LoS to units DS in you want to protect. A turn 2 DS is useful for this strategy.

One of the things I have seen to help counter riptides is dropping the drop pod first in front of the riptide so it obscures your next drops thereby giving you cover saves (or better if you leave the doors up and get lucky you can block LoS).

Alternatively I have seen dropping a PFG libby with the 10 man belial squad to give the models without TH/SS a 4++ I kind of doubt this is worth it though as I would rather have TH/SS models.

BTW how do you feel about FW? Right now you completely lack AA (or have to use scouts/quadd gun alone) and the only decent AA that DW has access to are hyperios automated platforms from IA12/Aeronatica. These add cheap tough MLs, a skyfire/interceptor ML, and finally cheap units to deploy on the field so you can DS all your terminator units without deploying something soft or useless.

Yeah, Tau put out enough shots that you'll fail your 2+ saves enough to render your terminators ineffective.

Terminators are best against other relatively elite units -- they like having a very small number of shots or attacks come their way, which with good rolling means they all stay alive and invincible. That is not what people are bringing right now. People are bringing Guard Blobs, Broadsides, Riptides w/ Interceptor Ion Accelerators, TL Tesla Destructors, etc.

2+ saves are better in combat now, but people are now bringing the shooting solution to them instead of any CC solution.

An additional problem with Deathwing lists nowadays is that they bring even fewer bodies than other terminator lists! Belial is hugely increased in cost, DW Terminators are more expensive with no more survivability than normal terminators, and TH/SS costs more points as well. Yeah, Vengeful Strike seems impactful, but think about it. You're getting 8 TL bolter shots, which won't do very much. The main benefit is the TL Heavy weapon, and one TL TML, PC, or AC doesn't do enough work to be worth getting them all killed the turn after.

The only way I'd see DW terminators really work, is to make it part of an AV14 spam list with bolter banner. You'd have a Libby in Power armor to get a cheap power armor Command Squad with the Bolter Banner. You'd stick the command squad in one LRC, the Libby, Belial, and a squad of Terminators (maybe DWK) in another LRC, and one more Squad in another LRC. Then you have a Techmarine on a bike with the Power Field running right behind the Land Raiders, out of LoS of the enemy, so you have a lot of firepower, and anything that needs the application of power fists, gets that from the inside of the Land Raiders.

My opening caveat is always that it could be the meta in my area.

That said, I've had tremendous luck with Deathwing in 6th -- but they have to be used very specifically.

I've found that they cannot be used as the only troop choice, and have to be paired with the dakka banner. This is because the dakka banner is the best force multiplier in the DA book, and helps mitigate the high cost of the DW.

In short: Make your tac marines more of a threat than the termies, and then you have a good shot.

Also, I only ever run DW squads in 10, and only run ACs -- because it's the only way I can justify benefiting from the vengeful strike TL.

@Auswin
Are you aware the dakka banner does not work on SB?

 ansacs wrote:
@Auswin
Are you aware the dakka banner does not work on SB?

I am, might not have made that very clear. I was saying that I run a lot of standard tac marines in addition to two 10 man deathwing squads.

Best solution is two lrc plus pfg libby. This starts on the field and charges the enemy with belial inside. Use his tele homer to bring other squads on turn 2 dwa and block los with lrcs. Also never use thunder hammers unless filling points, as it loses efficiency. with this you either use 4 dwt squads or 3 dwt and 1dwk. When you can negate enemy infantry shooting you' ll find termies survive a lot longer.

I thought the SS was an almost auto include now with as much AP 2 as there is?

6th edition is even more "bucket of dice" oriented than 5th. Even in 5th, terminators were a dubious choice with the amount of dakka flying around. (Shoota boyz taught me lessons in 5th) Terminators being T4 is their death knell. Massed anti-infantry fire just powers them down. Plus, it only takes 2 or 3 failed saves to basically cripple the squad.

Yeah, deathwing can take stormshields, can't they? That kind of makes any reference to Ap2 weapons sort of moot.

The problem here isn't one of deathwing, it's a problem of terminators, as people have said. The problem with terminators, though, isn't a problem with terminators, it's a problem with people using them stupidly.

Most people think of terminators as the elite of the elite that have been put in your codex to handle other elite of the elite. This is a particularly easy mistake to make once you throw a few stormshields in there.

As such, most people most of the time stupidly deepstrike them (or shove them in with a land raider) directly into the middle of their opponent's stuff, looking for that "assassin" kill. They then wonder why 1000 points of enemy units so easily beat up 250 points worth of terminators, and then declare terminators to be bad because they're not durable enough.

Even if you're not using them in quite this way, as the OP claims he isn't, there's still that mentality there. When presented with two targets, I've got to go after the biggest, scariest one. After all, I've got the best weapons, and the best armor. As we all know, though, that's not good enough. There are things that put their points into killing power MUCH more efficiently than terminators do. They just don't compete on the same level as DCA+crusader squads or against a khorne lord with an axe of blind fury, or against a swarmlord.

No, the correct way to use terminators is the opposite way. They can run up to a tac squad or a guard blob or some interceptors or some firewarriors and absolutely beat the living paste out of them. They exist to take out units WEAKER than them with practically no casualty to themselves. They exist to slink into the backfield and murder a scoring unit without a serious challenge and then watch their opponent desperately try and figure out how to get rid of them and replace them with a scoring unit.

Put another way, terminators exist to free up the rest of your army to handle the hard targets. They'll handle the little stuff (all of it), so that everyone else can focus on taking out those DCAs or that swarmlord, or that bloodthirster. Things that, honestly, terminators aren't that much better than regular marines at handling.

But that's terminators in general. What about deathwing? Well, deathwing does what terminators do very, VERY well. They have the weapon options to be able to handle those weaker threats, and the versatility to have some amount of survivability against worse. And, most importantly, they score. A deathwing army basically says "those are some nice objectives, I think I'll have them". They show up, kill off the scouts or pathfinders holding them, and then they score there instead. They're your strategic bread and butter.

The problem, though is that there are plenty of units that are particularly good at taking out terminators. Those are units that you can't just throw more terminators at. Those are the things that you spend the rest of your army to be able to handle. If you're loosing too many terminators, then what you need to do is take FEWER terminators so that you can take more mortis dreads, or whatever.

You should build the rest of your army towards tabling your opponent, starting with what's the worst threat to terminators, and use your terminators as a way to still win objectives just in case you can't quite pull it off.

Because taking a monoculture terminator list opens yourself up to hard counters. That doesn't make terminators weak or deathwing bad, it just means there are hard counters, and you're going to have to put a few brain cells together to counter the counters.

I just hate the idea personally of running a ten man squad. That's a lot of points that can only shoot at one target. I do like the idea of belial with a ten man with hf, or even ac. Its a pretty interesting idea I will have to try for myself. My meta is alot of chaos ally daemons, or only daemons. Those thirsters are very popular at my store. Not too many tau or guard players that play. I love the models for DW. I always make sure to throw in two THSS in each squad as they make them much more resilent to plasma.

Mortis dreads!
Should've been in the codex.
As posted above, a 10 man squad with a HF dropping with Belial will annihilate any troop you want it to. Then you have 10 terminators in an obnoxious position for your opponent. Armies frequently pour most of their firepower in removing them, which is a mistake.

Terminators do a good job of pounding most MCs to road pizza, though. particularly the TH/SS variety. I like to deep strike BA shooty terminators with SP support in my drop pod list. Of course, they aren't alone since there's all the stuff that came out of the pod that's got the locator beacon. The FNP makes them pretty good against MCs if they happen to run into them.

You know the interesting thing about termies is that they would be great if they could take 2 SW per 5 men. As they are they have trouble dealing damage efficiently.

Ailros actually makes a really good point. Though I would argue that most of the hard hitting can actually be handled reasonably well with LR+DW knights. Contemptor dreadnoughts would probably work better though.

Wow, thanks for all the advice guys. It's sort of a strange phenomenon I am encountering because I have been so reliant on terminators in my 4th edition army. I guess the points increase is just enough to make my terminators that much less efficient when compared to other armies.

Perhaps it is also that a lot of my store's meta is very good at dealing with terminators, and marines in general.

Ailaros, thank you for your comment. I do understand that that is the role of terminators, as once they are given the chance to beat up on some weaklings they really do shine. The problem is that those "weakling" squads are usually packed full of plasma and lascannons in the term of guard, or are simply such low points that it doesn't matter. When fighting IG, I used 15 terminators against ~30 IG a command squad and some Ogryns with a psyker (just for fun) they did great, scoring me 5 victory points relatively easily (first blood, slay the warlord + Belial's Warlord trait + 2 KPs) That's what they are meant to do. However, I don't think I've gone a single game without losing my entire deathwing force :/

I have been trying to utilize DW Knights more, but the points just aren't quite working out. I will probably be making 5 of them soon, and plan to put them in a LR or LRC with Chaplain or Belial. I think they would be the best counter to big shooty MCs.

I don't have a lot of anti-flyer simply because most of the flyers in my store aren't that scary. usually they are DakkaJets, that DE thing and maybe some Necron ones. Only my friend's Vendettas seem to be a problem, and I really cannot see any solutions to them given the models I have. Usually I just ignore them.

I see now that the problem with terminators isn't their survivability per se, it is their damage output. My friend can get plasma vets that can trash my whole squad for a fraction of the cost. My Deathwing might not even be able to wipe that squad, which is sort of pathetic. TH/SS don't seem to really help either as he just uses lasguns on them and then plasma on the non TH/SS guys. They never even get to attack. Plus, powerfists are such overkill against things like Tau and IG that they are a waste.

I have come to realize that pure DW or pure elite is just not going to cut it in my meta. Against something like Necrons or other SM they might do fine. But against the large MCs and spammy guns of Daemons, Tau, IG etc, they just fall over like nothing. I have come up with what I think could be a fun, flavorful, mixed wing list that should hopefully allow me to get in close. I am also working on a pure Ravenwing list with the Dakka banner to thin out the ranks of those IG... of course, my friend has caught on and is now using blobs of IG + a Dark Angel's librarian with PFG to give them all prescience and the 4++... His Guardsmen always seem to have a 4+ or 4++ due to cover and that invul. It's so stupid when my marines get a 2+ or 3+ and his guard have a 4 just for being on the table. Same with the Tau etc. I am tempted to just take triple whirlwinds to blast away all of their troops, however, the heavy weapons just focus them down, or the vendettas fly on and shoot em. Sigh...

Here is a link to my 2000 pts. army thread, that has gotten no responses as of yet. If you guys could help me out that would be great

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/539617.page

I want some suggestions for optimization, as possibly how to get in some DW Knights. However, I want to be able to keep as many models as I already have in my collection in there, which is essentially the three terminators squads.

Again, thanks for the help

- VardenV2


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Terminators do a good job of pounding most MCs to road pizza, though. particularly the TH/SS variety. I like to deep strike BA shooty terminators with SP support in my drop pod list. Of course, they aren't alone since there's all the stuff that came out of the pod that's got the locator beacon. The FNP makes them pretty good against MCs if they happen to run into them.

I have not found this to be true at all, unless it is a shooty MC. I lost 4 TH/SS terminators to a Daemon Prince with Black Mace in one turn, and did no damage in return. He single-handedly killed two terminators squads and Belial, taking one wound. The only wound I caused was overwatch with my assault cannon. And I can never assault Riptides because they jump away from me, and if/when i do catch them, tau get their overwatch shenanigans of ultimate stupidity. That dakka banner is looking better all the time. Until I realized that his broadsides missile pods ignore LOS and cover. If the dakka banner survives one turn I would be amazed.

I said most. Most MCs can't stand up to a squad of powerfists/thunder hammers for long.

6th edition is making meqs and teqs suspect, not your local meta.

Deathwing terminators are 44 points stock. With this cost they get a number of nice advantages. They have preferred enemies CSM. They have vengeful strike and Deathwing Assault.
However, they have a large number of disadvantages which makes them a semi-competitive army at best.


Resilience per Point (RPP)
A 2+ save is twice as durable as a 3+ save vs AP4+ weapons -- your will lose exactly 1/2 as many models to bolter fire with terminators as power armor marines.

This means that if your comparing a deathwing terminator to a DA tactical marine, you can effectivly half the cost of the deathwing to see its RPP value in comparison to the TAC. This gives you a baseline comparison of 22 to 14. The deathwing is nearly twice as much per point to invest into.

The deathwing does have a 5++, but that's fairly marginal. Most weapons that ignore cover right now still give the 3+ armor save -- and even if they did not, then the DA TACS are still cheaper per point.

Deathwing has only one advantage -- their immunity to AP3 weapons. When helldrakes were everywhere this was a significant advantage, but today that advantage has dwindled.



Dakka per Point (DPP)
Every model having a storm bolter sounds nice until you start to see it in a DPP value. For one terminator storm bolter at 44 points, you can have 3.14 DA TAC bolters.

Special weapons are fairly similar in cost (2 MLs for 25 pts or PC for 15 points) but your still paying a premium for the base weapons.

The ability to split fire is great when you have one of two criteria.
1) Overwhelming firepower, which causes wasted firepower via massive overkill. IE-- a guard blob rapid firing 5 PGs, 40 LGs, and 5 ACs into 5 TACs.
2) Special weapons that would have little/no effect on the said target. IE -- a melta gun shooting at a vehicle while your anti-infantry shots go into the infantry targets.
This is limited for DW, which have few anti-vehicle shooting in their squads. At best you can pop off 2 krak missiles of at some other target while your bolters pelt another.


Choppa per Point (CPP)
In this category, DW actually does fairly well. Having a 2+, 2 attacks and a PF on every model is actually decent.

In an assault, your DW will be killing 5/6 of a MEQ each turn -- and more importantly inflicting ID on anything that is T4 or less. This means wraiths, etc will take serious hits.

Against Xenos armies, even the normal TACs are still pretty decent. They will have 3.14 attacks for every 2 attacks of the termies. While they wound less often and still give Xenos their saves, they are still not that much worse than the DW on a per-point basis.

In a game that has changed to a shooty based game, this advantage is not very strong IMHO.


Fearless
Fearless in marines is a disadvantage when you have ATSKNF. You cannot go to ground. You cannot fall back and shoot someone in the face.

Simply put, the DW should be cheaper BECAUSE of fearless.


Putting it together
In summary if you run Deathwing today you will have less shots than your opponent. You will have less resilience than your opponent. You will have marginaly better choppa per point than your opponent.

Deathwing fails in competitive play. Its a hard counter to a single build that is becoming less dominant.

If you want to take a terminator army, you need to make it cheaper. This can be done though wolf guard or CSM. The idea if your terminators need to be 31 points or less to be feasable. Anything more is just cost prohibitive.

Deathwing are more expensive because your being forced to buy a lot of things that you really don't need.

Black Mace DP would be one of the exceptions to the Termies-Kill-MCs rule, because Termies usually do do quite well vs MCs. High strength weapons that ignore armour will do a number vs MCs, especially since many have no invulnerable save backing them up.

I wasn't trying to be contrarian, but my termies have squished tervigons, hive tyrant, many demon MCs, wraithlords, etc. Yeah, the black mace is a problem. So that thing gets dakkaed and the rest get squished. Or at least that's what I'd try to do.

Because Terminator toughness is inconsistent.

For three games, they'll all die to small arms fire in the first or second turn it's available. Then they'll go on an unkillable rampage for one game. Then back to dropping like flies.

Just a side note, Missile pod broadsides are only ignore LoS and cover with their S5 AP5 missiles, so if your hidden thats 4 shots that dont ignore your save, not all 8, I hope you arent getting cheated

labmouse brings up a good point. It shows me that DW need to be used as A) Hard to kill objective holders / takers. B) Support for more shooty units or C) Assault monsters.

The option to be very survivable and fearless against small arms fire makes them good for taking objectives, but that's only ifI have Azrael or Belial, which sort of sucks.

B) Using them as support for something else can be good as they make a pretty good meat wall and discourage enemies from getting close.

C) They need a land Raider to be able to assault without getting shot. This makes it seem like DW Knights or Hammer and Storm Shields in a LR or LRC would be optimal.

I have noticed that since I left my LR at home and have been doing mostly deep strike, I tend to do worse. I think it might be time to bring back the ol' white bawks and get some TH/SS terminators into krumpin' range. Use the shooty squad to drop and support them, and then run RW or Greenwing for the core. Just need to do some rethinking I guess.

I have been experimenting with using a command squad with terminator libby for the FNP banner. That would make the 2+/5++ or 2+/3++ of my terminators go way up in the survivability aspect, which can help them be more worth their cost. Hopefully cuts down on those 1's by 30% which can certainly help if the dice gods are kind. Has anyone had success with the FNP banner?

Also, I do not have my book with me, but does the FNP banner only give it to Inner Circle members or does it give it to any DA unit within 12"? If it does, then i have considered a Drop Pod DA Tactical list using a DW Librarian and command squad to make the initial drop much much scarier, and survivable. My guess is that the banner will be targeted first, but if it increases everyone's resilience, then it could be worth it. Librarian can then divination whomever he pleases. I'll probably post the list some time today as a concept. I really doubt I will run the list as I have made too many purchases recently, but those DV marines are cheap, and =I could eventually grow to get a good mixed list going.

- VardenV2

It's a touch off topic, but since you mentioned trying to integrate DW knights I feel it's apropos to share a combination I've been using to a lot of success.

DW Knights and Ezekiel in a land raider crusader.

It seems a little counter-intuitive at first, but the synergy is really pretty impressive. I'm still experimenting with the best powers to roll one, but I'm leaning towards a double roll on divination -- ideally to get Ezekiel a 4+ invuln, and counter assault.

In any event... stick Ezekiel behind the shield wall and he can't be shot at. In assault the knights are getting WS 6 (from the buff), the knight master can take challenges instead of the librarian, and if you're lucky enough to get off a mind worm a multi-wound unit has little chance against the knights at lower WS and I -- let alone if they hit smite mode.

Auswin wrote:
It's a touch off topic, but since you mentioned trying to integrate DW knights I feel it's apropos to share a combination I've been using to a lot of success.

DW Knights and Ezekiel in a land raider crusader.

It seems a little counter-intuitive at first, but the synergy is really pretty impressive. I'm still experimenting with the best powers to roll one, but I'm leaning towards a double roll on divination -- ideally to get Ezekiel a 4+ invuln, and counter assault.

In any event... stick Ezekiel behind the shield wall and he can't be shot at. In assault the knights are getting WS 6 (from the buff), the knight master can take challenges instead of the librarian, and if you're lucky enough to get off a mind worm a multi-wound unit has little chance against the knights at lower WS and I -- let alone if they hit smite mode.

That's actually a pretty cool combo. I really need to buy a LRC. I have a standard Land Raider at the moment, which I put my 5 TH/SS guys into (hold over from 4th/5th) and then drop everyone else. It is usually escorted by bikes. I would also consider taking a Terminator Interrogator Chaplain with them, as it can make them absolute beasts in close combat when they charge (plus the model is cool). If I gave the terminator the Mace of Redemption he would be str 7 apt, blind, concussive, and have 5 attacks on the charge (3 + charge + 2ccw from crozius and mace). He can tank challenges if need be. The only thing stopping him would be Sv 2+, but I would make sure not to charge that unit.

I'd also consider giving Ezekiel Telepathy to maybe try and get invisibility? If he got that power if would make them shrouded when out of combat, which will help when they wipe something, and also make the enemy WS1. Psychic Shriek is also not that bad a backup power. Do yo have to take all powers from the same discipline? If not I would do Prescience and then 2 rolls in telepathy.

- VardenV2

Skipping past the walls of text I would say you are playing too small of a game. Certain armies don't scale down or don't scale up too well. I would say DW are not going to do well with only 15-20 models on the table.