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Is there a way to make the crimson hunter work? does it just take a lot of practice to get the vector dancer to work right and help it survive? or is it just a lost cause.

I find mine to be invaluable. Sure in a battle which I'm facing a ton of flyers it is helpful and not dominant, but if you able to secure air dominance early with your hunters, things go well.

Is it the best fast attack choice? probably not... but it is a good one.

Well the last time I used mine was against tau and let's just say it didn't last long. I manage to keep it out of range of the quad gun to just get blown away by a sky ray instead. I think it's a great model and fun to use but not on a competitive level. The points can be spent on much better choices.

I have written and tested an Eldar Airforce list. I use a Crimson hunter in it. Keep in mind that as long as you have a way to knock out the Heavy Support, your problems diminish quite a bit. Lucky shots are always possible, buuuuut in the grand scheme, the Crimson Hunter is an important component to the force I built.

The way I have done away with Tau/Other heavy supports is to use outflanking War Walkers. They demolish the broadsides with Star Cannons and now the enemy has a targeting conundrum. The airplane cannot do nearly the damage those Warwalkers can. But yet if they dont kill the planes, My Hemlocks are going to send a serious number of enemies off the board screaming for their lives. The Exarch on the Crimson hunter never misses and pumps out a ton of precision{5} shots so its a tough call for the enemy for sure. Turn 3 is usually the moment of truth with my force. I either have route the enemy or I am rowing upstream. But it's 11-0 even though it might occassionally have to row.

So in other words, its worth the learning curve.

toocool61 wrote:
Is there a way to make the crimson hunter work? does it just take a lot of practice to get the vector dancer to work right and help it survive? or is it just a lost cause.

It has four S8 AP2 shots. At BS4. BS5 for +20 points. Two of those shots are Lance shots.

How is it not a way to make it work? You come onto the field, move the minimum distance, shoot a unit of Terminators, kill some. Or you come onto the field, shoot a transport, and make it go boom. Or you shoot a land raider, get lucky, and make it go boom.

Unless, of course, your opponent plays Tau and has a riptide with VT and EWO and kills it the turn it comes in.

It's a beautiful thing...it takes a learning curve...but you control what can shoot it...sometimes you need to fly into the line of fire to kill a target...it is also up to you to figure out what it can and can't survive...each turn.

I think it takes something like 108 bolter shots to take her down...It's more difficult than people think for AV10

In any game setting but a tournament I would say yes. There are some armies that it will fly on and die immediately to overwhelming interceptor fire. Eldar only have flyers in the FA slot so you will never exhaust the type of interceptor some armies bring. In an environment where you have more control in what you face and where the crimson hunter is fantastic. It takes one of the highest learning curves to learn how to use vector dancer AV10 flyers properly though.

The exarch is pretty awesome assuming you have mastered the art that is getting the crimson hunter on the board to shoot something worthwhile without getting it killed.

It really needs some sort of reserve altering support, be that an Autarch or a Farseer rolling on Divination for Scrier's Gaze. The thing with the Hunter is that it has to come on at a certain time. If it comes on at the right time, it's brilliant. If it doesn't it dies and doesn't do much else.

You need to make sure it comes on after enemy fliers (or at least after some). Crimson Hunters will easily down a flier a turn and it doesn't matter what that flier is. However, it's not going to do that if it comes on beforehand. Other fliers will take down the hunter easily, so you've got to get on and be able to shoot the enemy fliers rather than the other way round.

Similarly, you'll really need to take out those Quad Guns (and any other interceptors). Being AV10 all round, most Skyfire weapons will really hurt it.

So, use what you can to delay the Hunter's arrival until the opportune moment. Then come on and blast stuff to pieces.

^True

I always take the Autarch...wouldn't take a Hunter without one.

Yeah, I have the Autarch as well who, by the way, is quite good at his job.

Mine has been working beautifully and I haven't lost it yet. It is definitely better if you go second against enemy flyers, but with a bit of practice I've found ways to keep it safe even if it comes on too early.

 ductvader wrote:
^True

I always take the Autarch...wouldn't take a Hunter without one.

I will second that. The Autarch provides a very good method of getting the CH in when you want it in. However, you need to take care of any Interceptor stuff before it comes in, otherwise it will be no more than a dead 160/180 points. It may take over 100 bolter shots, but no one will be shooting at a flyer with bolters, no matter how low the AV is.

I find that, based on my limited experience with the unit, that a nightwing performs better. However, running the two side-by-side is one of the better paired unit combinations available. Its not the best but still very good and I will explain why.

By running 2 fliers you double your likelihood of bringing air support on turn 2 to do some HS cleanup if going first or clear the skies if going second. This being said you now have a vulnerable flier on the table if your opponent has one left in reserve. No problem. If you are lucky only the NW came on and now you can evade for a 2+ cover save. If the hunter came on then you have a harder save to make but with an extra hull point just in case. Either way you have another flier in reserve with atleast 2 S8 shots at BS4 on his side armor at least and if you get lucky you can vector dance to that soft AV10 rear armor on most fliers and there even the S6 shuricannons are brutal.

What if both come on? the Nightwing has supersonic and can use that to put itself off the table and into ongoing reserves to re-enter from ANY table edge.

This combination can be, and for me has been, brutal for other armies who run some kind of flier by itself with mostly ground support units.

My games have mostly been played against Blood Angels and CSM with hell turkeys and vindicators. Limited success against Tau but all fliers suffer in the face of missile-sides. That being said my success is based on a limited number of games with a select few people so if you find a chink in the armor I missed let me know so I can adjust my lists too.

I use mine to great success, and then it dies.

I have a tally on the sides of its base....

Times used:
Times killed:
Fliers killed:
Vehicles killed:

There really almost the same.

 Farseer14 wrote:
What if both come on? the Nightwing has supersonic and can use that to put itself off the table and into ongoing reserves to re-enter from ANY table edge.

Can't do this on the turn you arrive; FAQ.

 ductvader wrote:

I think it takes something like 108 bolter shots to take her down...It's more difficult than people think for AV10

It only takes three twin-linked lascannons.

Someone PM'd me and asked me for my Eldar Airforce list. I'll post the link to it here:

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2013/07/6th-edition-eldar-codex-making-flyers.html

The Crimson Hunter is an important part fo the formula because i MUST overwhelm the enemy anti-air options and quickly to succeed. So all the help I can get doing that is worthwhile.

AV10, no defensive equipment, 160 points. If given the option of FW, the nightwing is better. If given the option of allies, GK stormraven or half the tau codex do skyfire better. If given none, im still very hesitant to take it in any sort of competitive setting. To make it work you need these things:

Autarch or scryer's gaze (only 66% chance to get with a farseer)
Enemy has a flier (quite a few wont bring fliers still)
Either:
-Go 2nd and have his flier come on, then hope you dont roll the 1 with the autarch
-Go 1st and make sure you dont roll 4 5 or 6 with an autarch, or hope you can roll a 1 or 2 on 3 dice with scryer's.

Then the quad gun/fortress/firestorm/icarus has to be dead or you have to stay out of range, probably leaving the brightlances out of range.

Then you have to get good enough rolls on the turn it comes in to shoot down that enemy flier. Not guarenteed with all those AV12 fliers out there. You almost sure as hell arent going to last the return fire.

So if the stars align and you get lucky enough for everything to work, yes, it works very well for the job. However, 90% of the time you will have something go wrong and you will not kill an enemy flier with it and it will die. IMO, no way worth it. So many other ways to deal with fliers where you dont have to count on astrology to succeed.

"better" isn't relevant. They are different codex's. Someone will be "better" when the time comes. Better is relative to the moment its used.

Dismissing things is an internet pastime, but I recommend you remember all of that when your army is screaming and running. =). the Crimson Hunter is an admirable escort.

My issue with the Hunter is that it only works very well against things that Eldar don't need much help against. It's very good in a ground attack role against an enemy without much AA. Hunters are about as good as War Walkers here, although they can't start on the board. Small arms fire isn't a huge issue because, if necessary, a Hunter can stay in your deployment zone all game while still firing.

But Hunters are pretty bad if the other guy has >48" AA (especially with Interceptor) which you can't easily kill, and they're basically a wash against enemy flyers. Eldar already have a hard time against Tau, and Hunters are miserable against a list with Riptides. Against most flyers, it's all about which one comes on first. And the Hunter is more expensive than the things it's supposed to counter. Plus a Hunter can be rendered much less useful if it can be forced to jink; it's harder to force other flyers to jink and many of them have twin-linked guns and so suffer less for doing so.

Hunters are really, really good against Heldrakes. If you're getting torn up by other enemy flyers, Hunters are at least a not very wasteful way of countering some of those points, although you should probably be using Warp Spiders or Tau instead.

well they arent in a vacuum. you take units to help kill what kills jets first, naturally.

pantsonhead wrote:
My issue with the Hunter is that it only works very well against things that Eldar don't need much help against.

It works well against Storm Ravens and Vendettas, which Eldar aren't very good against. Unlike the other AV12 flyer the Drake, Ravens are AV12 all around and Vendettas have enough range that they don't always have to expose rear armour like the Drake does to get good shots. If someone can point out a better in-Codex answer to Ravens, I'll concede the point, but as is I think the Hunter still has a place in competitive lists with a bit of skilled ply to keep it alive as long as you can. I've managed to keep mine alive 100% so far, but I won't use that to say it's tough, as I still have a lot of different lists to play against yet.

Uh... maybe I'm alone here but am I alone in thinking about not fielding a Hunter cuz' it's ugly?

On a more tactical note; I find the high volume of S6 or 7 fire put out by Spiders ruins most flyers' butts, espicially when combined with RunShoot.

If you run an Autarch and / or comms relay I guess it's controllable but, each Hunter can only kill one vehicle per turn. That doesn't seem that useful against these lists I've seen with my own eyes (or net, which I will note).

IG Airforce
Double or Triple Helldrakes (in net theory)
Other Eldar with War Walkers
Disintegrator Ravagers!!!
Necron Bakery (in net theory)

What the Hunter definitely does have in its' favor is it's in the FA slot where it occupies the distant silver medal slot to gold medal slot Spiders.

 Jancoran wrote:
well they arent in a vacuum. you take units to help kill what kills jets first, naturally.

Sure, but that doesn't really apply to what I was talking about. I was explicit that Hunters suffer when you're up against long-range AA that you can't easily kill. Good luck clearing a pair of Riptides off the board before your Hunter(s) come on. Vendettas and Nightscythes must be held in Reserves - you're incredibly unlikely to have killed them all before your Hunters come on. One reason you have for taking the Hunters at all is to help deal with flyers like that, but they're not actually efficient at this. In some cases they may be your least-bad option, although it's a little hard to imagine lists where Warp Spiders don't work better in general, but it's important to recognize that you're trying to counter your opponent by spending more points on the counter than he's spending on the thing you're trying to counter.

I'm trying to point out that Hunters are actually a ground attack unit that can somewhat inefficiently handle AA. The problem is that they themselves are extremely vulnerable to the sorts of AA often found in exactly the lists where they would be most useful as ground attack units. You'd love to have a Hunter to snipe Crisis Suits, but Riptides shut them down. You'd love to have a Hunter to snipe side armor on Guard parking lots, but Vendettas are a reasonably efficient counter to them. S8 and Lances are always nice against Necrons, but Nightscythes are extremely good against them.

I suppose it's worth adding that Hunters are also a poor choice against other Eldar lists, since Eldar aren't bad at dealing with AV10 flyers and lack great targets for the Hunters' guns.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

It works well against Storm Ravens and Vendettas, which Eldar aren't very good against. Unlike the other AV12 flyer the Drake, Ravens are AV12 all around and Vendettas have enough range that they don't always have to expose rear armour like the Drake does to get good shots. If someone can point out a better in-Codex answer to Ravens, I'll concede the point, but as is I think the Hunter still has a place in competitive lists with a bit of skilled ply to keep it alive as long as you can. I've managed to keep mine alive 100% so far, but I won't use that to say it's tough, as I still have a lot of different lists to play against yet.

But it's not actually good against Vendettas. Hunter vs Vendetta is basically an even fight, and mostly comes down to who comes on second, but the Vendetta has two significant advantages in that it's cheaper and loses much less when jinking. As I said, the Hunter is a not very wasteful way of dealing with Vendettas. I think Spiders are preferable, though. Storm Ravens are extremely expensive, and Spiders remain a decent answer to them, but not trying to kill them at all is a perfectly viable option for many Eldar lists. Plus, remember that we're worried about lists rather than units. A unit is a more desirable choice to the extent that it helps significantly with your hardest matchups. I've not had much trouble with lists with Storm Ravens. But, sure, some Eldar lists might struggle with them, and might want a Crimson Hunter if that's a big enough problem. I note though that 8 Guided Warp Spiders average 1.6 damaging hits on an AV12 flyer. The CH does better, at 2 damaging hits, and more of those are pens and those pens are AP2, but Warp Spiders are hardly bad against Storm Ravens if Hunters are good against them. A Hunter is also unlikely to kill a Raven in one turn, and if the Hunter can ever be forced to jink its future usefulness plummets.

 RancidHate wrote:
Uh... maybe I'm alone here but am I alone in thinking about not fielding a Hunter cuz' it's ugly?.

You are definitely in the minority...that model is so friggin' beautiful...I managed to get my hands on one a week before the release and just sat there and gawked at it for about a week.

It's just so eldar-y...like a sparrow transformed into a vehicle. It's my most gorgeous model by far.

^Opinion spam but I don't even care.

Ok so maybe it is just me... well that's why I made sure to offer up tactical opinions as well

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

I think it takes something like 108 bolter shots to take her down...It's more difficult than people think for AV10

It only takes three twin-linked lascannons.

to hit it... then only 66% bypass jink, and 50% of those explode it.
so 10 TL las cannons kill it in a single shot. Not as easy as you would think.

Making you Jink is like killing you.

1850 four game tournament, 30 strong field, 2 Crimson Hunters, only lost one once in one game, podium finish.

Guess my opinion!

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Making you Jink is like killing you.

Making you waste 10 lascannon shots on AV10 is like killing you...only its much more embarrassing for you.

The real threat to Hunters exist in the form of S6-7 Weaponry...most of which is also at 36" range...allowing you manueverability to avoid a fair amount of real threats with vector dancer...it is by no means easy but this is one of those units you get exponentially more out of as your skill level increases with it.