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I know this has been asked alot but I haven't been able to find the thread so anyway....

I have some Dark Angels that im bringing to a Apocalypse game where the chaos legions are bringing there Primachs so i think the Lion needs to make an appearance.

Since some rules have already been released I can kinda wing my way through some home-brew rules.

Now to the fluff questions...

How would you rank the Primachs in fighting ability? (this is a straight up 1v1, not tactics or psykic powers)

Would this list include daemon primarchs? or just pre heresy?

Not looking at daemon primarchs...I am looking for a "pre" and "still going on" Horus Heresy.

I know some are fairly obvious, but since I am not very far in the HH novels I am having difficulty placing a few.

They're still so far above normal Marines it's pretty absurd. I mean, they're total beasts in armor, they're really, really fast too, some of them have over the top psychic powers, while others are downright resistant to any type of damage whatsoever. Oh, and the strongest can toss around tanks, I'd imagine the weaker ones could still lay a boot on a tank and send it flying if they tried.

If you're going by novel fluff, I'd expect them to have crazy stats and perhaps a ton of special rules. Forge World supposedly released some Primarch rules for their HH series already, and I'm sure a few dakkanauts could point you to where those rules can be found, exactly.

The GW core studio has also released stats for ascended Angron as part of the Armageddon scenario (available as a PDF on their website here, scroll to page 3) which were a bit lower than those from FW, so I'd expect GW's versions of the Primarchs to be somewhat less "epic" scaled as well. It may depend on whether you'd prefer the legendary supermen from the novels or the more gritty version from the Codex writers' own interpretation. I would assume the latter to work better in a game, though, due to an overall smaller gap between them and the troops they command.

The Codex would undoubtedly have to introduce some balancing aspects, yeah. If you're going for awe-inspiring supermen from an age of unparalleled expansion in Humanity's history...go for the fluff.

If you're going by fluff, their stats are pretty damn ridiculous. When they fight regular SMs, it's barely a fight at all. In warplate, they can tear Terminators apart, maybe even with their bare hands. I think they heal pretty quickly too (faster than their sons).

If you're going to play them, though, you'd probably want more accurate info than the fluff.

Just use Fulgrim for Betrayal. He is the closest Primarch with rules so far.

The Primarch of the XI legion was the biggest badass of all. He was erased form the histories because he totally pwned his bros.

I dont think they will have to be super uber, they are good but even Dorn died on a starship during a Black Crusade.

According to the primarchs already released(horus, mortorion, fulgrim, and angron) where would the Lion stack up in fighting with those guys?

Some ideas: Wounds 10, It will not die, Strength 9, Initiative 5, Fearless, Toughness 8, Counts as a massive teleport homer, everything from their codex has ATWKNF ect... Just make sure they cost loads

Hazard30 wrote:I dont think they will have to be super uber, they are good but even Dorn died on a starship during a Black Crusade.

That's my opinion as well - I don't buy the myth-based fluff that has them carve entire mountains in two, flipping Titans with their arms, or just shrug off plasma immolation. This is purely personal preferences, though, and a lot of fans seem to dig such things. Either way, I would be sceptical what effect such rules would have on the TT. When you're running "Movie Primarchs" you may as well run "Movie Marines". But would that truly make for a fun game? Or one that appears fluffy to both sides? Plot armour doesn't work as well if it's applied to both armies.

 Doomsdave wrote:
The Primarch of the XI legion was the biggest badass of all. He was erased form the histories because he totally pwned his bros.

Apparently she was awesome

I think they OP was asking for a ranking in terms of fluff. Right?
Alas, that's hard to do, since they are all badass in their own novels, ofc, they have unique approaches to fighting (Magnus is terrifying because of his psychic powers, without them..noone knows), and they change throughout the crusade and the heresy. Lorgar was considered weak in the beginning , but got stronger along with gaining confidence. They aren't enough 1v1 fights to really form a complete picture.

That said, Leman Russ is Batman and can defeat anyone (yes, even the actual Batman-expy Night Haunter)

EDit: spoilers

In a one on fight using just martial prowess, Lion El'Jonson was one of the best. I agree with Stonerhino as The Lion and Fulgrim were the two swordmaster primarchs.

"The Lion and Fulgrim were the two swordmaster primarchs"

...too which Angron would reply "so now you'vo got your pantsy swords lodged in my stomach and i don't care. Mind if rip you ti pieces now, brother?"
or, more likely "aaaaaaaaaaaaargrgrhh".

I'm pretty sure, every single one of them is VERY proficient at combat, so it might come down to the finest parts of swordplay..or just one being tougher and wearing an opponent out.

VensersRevenge wrote:
In a one on fight using just martial prowess, Lion El'Jonson was one of the best. I agree with Stonerhino as The Lion and Fulgrim were the two swordmaster primarchs.

Khan ? Read the WS...He is even more badass then Fulgrim.....

Hazard30 wrote:

How would you rank the Primachs in fighting ability? (this is a straight up 1v1, not tactics or psykic powers)

I'm not really sure about a number of them but I would start off a ranking something like this. Almost all of them are pretty badass, so average in this case is kind of dubious.



Horus at or near the top
Angron at or near the top

Sanguinius top tier
Fulgim possessed top tier
Russ top tier

Kruze slightly above average(dude fights dirty)
Khan slightly above average
Lion slightly above average

Corax, Guiliam, Perterbo, Dorn, Ferrus mid level

Fulgrim unpossessed slightly below average

Mortorn lower tier
Alparius-Omegan lower tier when alone (but there are two of them)
Vulkan lower tier

Magnus near the bottom

Lorgar at or near the bottom


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KhornedBeef wrote:
"The Lion and Fulgrim were the two swordmaster primarchs"

...too which Angron would reply "so now you'vo got your pantsy swords lodged in my stomach and i don't care. Mind if rip you ti pieces now, brother?"
or, more likely "aaaaaaaaaaaaargrgrhh".

I'm pretty sure, every single one of them is VERY proficient at combat, so it might come down to the finest parts of swordplay..or just one being tougher and wearing an opponent out.

yeah, Angron was a gladiator the match or more for any of the primarchs if you take away psykic powers and other skills. The embodied close combat of all types.

KhornedBeef wrote:
"The Lion and Fulgrim were the two swordmaster primarchs"

...too which Angron would reply "so now you'vo got your pantsy swords lodged in my stomach and i don't care. Mind if rip you ti pieces now, brother?"
or, more likely "aaaaaaaaaaaaargrgrhh".

I'm pretty sure, every single one of them is VERY proficient at combat, so it might come down to the finest parts of swordplay..or just one being tougher and wearing an opponent out.

Notice I said swordmaster. I highly doubt Angron qualifies as a "master". I'm pretty sure his fighting style boils down to: hack wildly with an axe.



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 DarthMarko wrote:

VensersRevenge wrote:
In a one on fight using just martial prowess, Lion El'Jonson was one of the best. I agree with Stonerhino as The Lion and Fulgrim were the two swordmaster primarchs.

Khan ? Read the WS...He is even more badass then Fulgrim.....

Really? I haven't read as much Horus Heresy as I'd like. But again, I said sword master, how did the Khan fight?

I agree with Exergy's rankings, its easier to place them into tier than it is to rank each and every one.

@VensersRevenge: Khan is a sword wielder, as is Sanguinius who I would definitely place above the Lion and pre-possession Fulgrim.

I'm curious if we will see Sanguinius fight Angron at Terra. The old fluff had them making eye contact and staring each other down across the battlefield, but I don't think its been mentioned if they ever actually met during the siege. Sanguinius already has a full plate at Terra anyways, but we'll see.

Guys, after reading Vulkan lives I would rank him pretty high.....


Also I disagree with any kind of rankings...

Some primarchs are pretty smart so they compesate their fightning skill with their brain...Guiliman or Lion for example....

According to Perturabo, Fulgrim was unmatched swordsman and I think he was worse fighter when possesed...

 Orblivion wrote:
I agree with Exergy's rankings, its easier to place them into tier than it is to rank each and every one.

@VensersRevenge: Khan is a sword wielder, as is Sanguinius who I would definitely place above the Lion and pre-possession Fulgrim.

I'm curious if we will see Sanguinius fight Angron at Terra. The old fluff had them making eye contact and staring each other down across the battlefield, but I don't think its been mentioned if they ever actually met during the siege. Sanguinius already has a full plate at Terra anyways, but we'll see.

Prepossessed Fulgrim wasn't anything special. He might have been a perfectionist, and he might be an trained swordsmad, he might be fast but he is weak. Ferrus beats him twice until you take the possession into account and Ferrus was tough but not that tough.

Sanguinius is up there. I would still put Angron above him. Sanguinius can fly and is psykicly attuned but Angron is just a beast. And once they meet on Terra Angron is being blessed/fueled by Khorne to some degree.



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 DarthMarko wrote:

According to Perturabo, Fulgrim was unmatched swordsman and I think he was worse fighter when possesed...

But he loses to Ferrus twice.
Once Ferrus goes in for the final flow and accidently knocks himself out. The other time Ferrus beats Fulgrim to a pulp, and then as Fulgrim realizes he lacks the strength to swing his blade any more he gives in to the blade's daemon, which brings new life to his sword and cuts Ferrus's head off.

Horus is regarded as the best of the primarchs, not only for his "fighting ability" but because horus is extremely intelligent and cunning, it allows him to gain a leg up in battle. This is reflected in the rules within betrayal. Angron is just a brutal, strong beater, so if you don't have a plan he will annihilate you in straight up, savage combat. Fulgrim is a master swordsman. Arguably the best. Because he is incredible he has an extremely high invulnerable save when he assaults. He also gains a disproportionate amount of attacks when he assaults too. So, he is fast. Mortarion isn't necessarily an incredible fighter, but he inspires fear, because he is the living embodiment of death. He is extremely stealthy, which allows his strikes to be swift. Mortarion is extremely resilient, moreso than his brothers, which makes him difficult to kill.

These are just my interpretations of the fluff and the rules from betrayal. Never does simply being good with a sword gain you the upper hand, there are a whole host of variables that factor in to determining who will persevere in a fight. If i were to assume rules for The Lion i would say that he is abrupt in his fighting technique. In a way that Fulgrim would be elegant with his weapon like a Jedi, Lion will fight with efficiency. Masterful, but none of the overstated technique that fulgrim would display. Fulgrim is fast, The Lion is probably stronger.

From what I am gathering atm is that...

Lion is stronger than Fulgrim, but not as strong as Angron.
He is less tough than Montarion but tougher than Fulgrim.
He has the weapon skill on par with Fulgrim, but still not as high as Angron?.

Anything else I am missing?

 Exergy wrote:

Once Ferrus goes in for the final flow and accidently knocks himself out. The other time Ferrus beats Fulgrim to a pulp, and then as Fulgrim realizes he lacks the strength to swing his blade any more he gives in to the blade's daemon, which brings new life to his sword and cuts Ferrus's head off.

So first time Fulgrim kicks Ferrus like a chump, his phoenix guard jumps and kill his elites and the second time he cuts his head off (because he couldn't finish him without being possesed)..

And you count Ferrus 2 wins ??? C'mon, second fight was a bit "magic sword prevailed" - but the first one was pretty straight.....

Here is my pick

1. Horus
2. Angron
3. Lion/Russ/Sang
4. Vulkan,Corax, Khan, Fulgrim
5. The rest

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Once Ferrus goes in for the final flow and accidently knocks himself out. The other time Ferrus beats Fulgrim to a pulp, and then as Fulgrim realizes he lacks the strength to swing his blade any more he gives in to the blade's daemon, which brings new life to his sword and cuts Ferrus's head off.

So first time Fulgrim kicks Ferrus like a chump, his phoenix guard jumps and kill his elites and the second time he cuts his head off (because he couldn't finish him without being possesed)..

And you count Ferrus 2 wins ??? C'mon, second fight was a bit "magic sword prevailed" - but the first one was pretty straight.....

"Ferrus attempted to use his silvery necrodermis hands to destroy Fulgrim's golden sword Fireblade, but the resulting explosion knocked him unconscious."
I was always under the impression that Ferrus had the upperhand and was going to destroy Fireblade and things didnt go as planned. Kind of funny as he forged fireblade himself, you would think he would know what he was doing.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Ferrus_Manus

 Exergy wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Once Ferrus goes in for the final flow and accidently knocks himself out. The other time Ferrus beats Fulgrim to a pulp, and then as Fulgrim realizes he lacks the strength to swing his blade any more he gives in to the blade's daemon, which brings new life to his sword and cuts Ferrus's head off.

So first time Fulgrim kicks Ferrus like a chump, his phoenix guard jumps and kill his elites and the second time he cuts his head off (because he couldn't finish him without being possesed)..

And you count Ferrus 2 wins ??? C'mon, second fight was a bit "magic sword prevailed" - but the first one was pretty straight.....

"Ferrus attempted to use his silvery necrodermis hands to destroy Fulgrim's golden sword Fireblade, but the resulting explosion knocked him unconscious."
I was always under the impression that Ferrus had the upperhand and was going to destroy Fireblade and things didnt go as planned. Kind of funny as he forged fireblade himself, you would think he would know what he was doing.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Ferrus_Manus

That's just a pure story element. One of the loyalist primarchs needed to die, so Ferrus did. It was a step along Fulgrim's path to daemonhood.

Their depictions in the fluff vary wildly. You can have them surviving titan-level plasma weapons to the face (Lorgar), and bouncing several devastators' squads worth of firepower off their armor (Corax), to being threatened death by a couple of Space Wolf tactical squads (Angron).

Then there is the varied results of their multiple clashes. In their first fight, the Lion started off with a sucker gut-stab, yet the fight ended with Kurze bashing the Lion's head against a rock until both sides interfered and dragged them apart. So you could call that fight a draw, or a minor victory for Kurze. In their second match-up, there were no sucker punches, but the Lion whooped Kurze's ass so bad, the latter ended up in a coma and was assumed dead by his Legion.

Anyway, if we're talking pure combat power (rather than raw power, which is a contest auto-won by Magnus), the top dog is probably Angron, going by comments from other Primarchs and his performance against Russ.

Like Corax said in one of his soliliques, Angron's only competition would be Sanguinius (we see him fight one of Khorne's greatest Bloodthirsters twice, soundly defeating it in the second clash) and Horus (he's supposed to be the bestest at everything).

Fulgrim was also said to be an amazing combatant, and we see him dispatch Ferrus, who was the strongest physically, and Guilliman, who was no slouch somewhat holding his ground against a transforming/ascending, berserk Angron.

So here would be my rankings:

Top Tier, unstoppable death machines - Angron, Sanguinius, Horus

Second Tier, master swordsmen/duelists - the Lion, Fulgrim

Third Tier, wild and unconventional fighters - Kurze, Corax, Russ, Khan (don't really know this guy's real capability, equating him to Russ for simplicity's sake), Ferrus Manus (probably belongs one tier down, but gave Fulgrim a very solid fight, so he jumps up a tier).

Fourth Tier, capable warriors and Primarchs to boot! - Lorgar after his pilgrimage, Guilliman, Vulkan (this guy is only seen briefly before getting blown up by siege engines), Perturabo, Magnus (psychic powers could probably bring his overall combat prowess up to third or even second tier if you consider Russ as having additional resistance/protection against psychic powers which made their fight more even, and really, if you just want to cause the most amount of destruction, deserves a tier all of his own)

Fifth Tier, total pussies if not for the fact that they are a Primarch - Lorgar before his pilgrimage, Dorn (maybe deserves to be one tier up, but all he does is mope about the pretty buildings, gets his gak packed in by Kurze, executes a dying old man, and then gets himself killed by Chaos scrubs on a Space Hulk)

Exergy - but Ferrus loses both times , I'mean you can't count that as his winses ....He tried that gak, he failed...K.O. for Fulgrim...

I always compare this fights with football matches in champions league - You can have a strong team with possesion and high number of shots on target, but here is the catch - they lose, so they can't be counted as winners....

 Lynata wrote:
That's my opinion as well - I don't buy the myth-based fluff that has them carve entire mountains in two, flipping Titans with their arms, or just shrug off plasma immolation. This is purely personal preferences, though, and a lot of fans seem to dig such things. Either way, I would be sceptical what effect such rules would have on the TT. When you're running "Movie Primarchs" you may as well run "Movie Marines". But would that truly make for a fun game? Or one that appears fluffy to both sides? Plot armour doesn't work as well if it's applied to both armies.

I agree largely with Lynata. Fluffwise, I've always wanted to see Phoenix Lords and Primarchs be equals -or near enough as one can get when taking in the variables. Obviously, the fact that Phoenix Lords have standard in-game rules and Primarchs do not discredits this idea, but it's still something that I personally like to think.

Iranna.