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PredaKhaine wrote:

When did Corax come out with that?

I thought in Ravens Flight he said he'd be going to his death if he fought Angron. But its early and my memory is fuzzy...
I remember having that impression anyway - but that could've been because Angron was backed up by his pile of frothing madmen legion

Did Lorgar manage to command Horus before or after his fight with guilliman?

Uh... The Corax book by Gav Thorpe, that's name I can't be bothered to look up.

He did, he believed Angron would murder him in a duel.

Before the fight with Guilliman, but after his fight with Corax.

Is that Corax book Deliverence Lost?

Corax - a man divided. 'I'll beat Angron if I fight him....but if I fight him, I'll die.'

He said he has beaten Horus. Not that he could beat Angron, lol.

I doubt he could in an actual fight, plus what stage of the 30k background are we talking about?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Corax says he thinks that he would beat Angron, but IIRC also says that Corax himself has bested Horus while sparring.

Now I'm really confused

Holy feth, you're two different people.

And sorry I wasn't clear, he thinks Horus would beat Angron, but says that he, Corax himself, has beaten Horus.

And I'm up to speed now

If Corax thought Horus would beat Angron, but that Angron would kill him - It adds more weight to 'they could all beat each other'.

sparring is not an actual fight. For example Aquillion beat argel tal in every sparring fight but was killed by him in combat. If the two fought Horus would kill Corax, as Corax himself states that Horus is the most powerful.

BaconUprising wrote:
sparring is not an actual fight. For example Aquillion beat argel tal in every sparring fight but was killed by him in combat. If the two fought Horus would kill Corax, as Corax himself states that Horus is the most powerful.

Indeed, I think Lucius and Loken demonstrated that sparring is not anywhere near trying to kill each other.

BaconUprising wrote:
sparring is not an actual fight. For example Aquillion beat argel tal in every sparring fight but was killed by him in combat. If the two fought Horus would kill Corax, as Corax himself states that Horus is the most powerful.

Argel Tal killed him in combat because he transformed into a daemon.

Corax never, not even once, stated that Horus is the most powerful.

But you know what Primarch does have quite a few characters refer to him as the most powerful of their number? Magnus the Red.

That's why I think he is one of if not the most powerful. He has by far the most potential...

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
Technically Kor Phaeron was using full-blown sorcery since he wasn't a psyker.

What makes you think he wasn't a psyker though?

Also, Lorgar is explicitly more powerful than him in that regard, in that very book.

He did not display any psychic potential as a human or as a pseudo-Space Marine (and being that he wasn't a real Space Marine, there was no trigger that sometimes makes people manifest the gift after becoming Astartes. Then, all of a sudden, he has a magic knife and is throwing warpflame.

Just like the flasks that allowed the traitors to communicate across vast distances, or the shards that allowed them to make rifts in space/time and travel through the void, this is all daemon magic taught to Lorgar by the Gods, and by Lorgar to his Legion. This remains Lorgar's task to this day, with him writing down the instructions on manipulating daemons and the warp and passing it to his Legion (the "Book" of Lorgar at this point fills several libraries).

The Word Bearers novels also feature a number of non-psychic characters who use the various rituals from the Book of Lorgar to achieve similar effects. My personal pet theory is that a lot of these rituals are based on Glossia, the raw language of Chaos introduced in the Eisenhorn/Ravenor novels. So basically, both Chaos Sorcerers and Dark Apostles manipulate daemons and the warp, but whereas the former do it as wizards using raw force of will and various pacts and contracts, the latter do it as clerics using their Lorgar-derived knowledge of the deeper mysteries of the warp as well as their status in the eyes of their patron deities.

To Recap:

Russ had nothing to do with the missing Primarchs. He also started the fight with a cheap shot, which only made the Lion angry, and when the Lion returned the favor, Russ was passed out for like a week.

 Omegus wrote:
Russ had nothing to do with the missing Primarchs. He also started the fight with a cheap shot, which only made the Lion angry, and when the Lion returned the favor, Russ was passed out for like a week.

In prospero burns, he mentions that the Thousand Sons aren't the first legion to fall from the Emperor's graces... he hints at the Space Wolves wiping them out.

It is also hinted at in many other places considering they are known as the executioners. It also says that they fell I'm a is liar way to Magnus which suggest sorcery and therefore the wolves involvement.

Horus kills Sanguinus and plans the destruction of 3 Loyalist Legions at Istvaan V. He also mortally wounds the Emperor.

Killing Sanguinius and mortally wounding the Emperor were not done under his own power. He had the massed might of Chaos flowing through him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Omegus wrote:

He did not display any psychic potential as a human or as a pseudo-Space Marine (and being that he wasn't a real Space Marine, there was no trigger that sometimes makes people manifest the gift after becoming Astartes. Then, all of a sudden, he has a magic knife and is throwing warpflame.

We never see him take an active role in a battle before Know No Fear. He didn't really do anything of substance in The First Heretic fight-wise.

Kor Phaeron and Erebus are said by some douche whose name I don't remember in Know No Fear to have once been the most powerful adepts within the Word Bearers Legion, with Lorgar only surpassing them after his manfight with Corax. Which IIRC is before Lorgar started penning the book of Lorgar.

Not that this really makes my point less valid though, since Lorgar and Magnus are still explicitly more powerful than Kor Phaeron, and if Kor Phaeron achieved that with just sorcery, then very talented psykers backed up by sorcery is even more potent.

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
Russ had nothing to do with the missing Primarchs. He also started the fight with a cheap shot, which only made the Lion angry, and when the Lion returned the favor, Russ was passed out for like a week.

In prospero burns, he mentions that the Thousand Sons aren't the first legion to fall from the Emperor's graces... he hints at the Space Wolves wiping them out.

The rumor was that wolves had fought their brothers before, but we now know it was the World Eaters.

The executioner bit is a self-appointed title with no authority.

 Omegus wrote:

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
Russ had nothing to do with the missing Primarchs. He also started the fight with a cheap shot, which only made the Lion angry, and when the Lion returned the favor, Russ was passed out for like a week.

In prospero burns, he mentions that the Thousand Sons aren't the first legion to fall from the Emperor's graces... he hints at the Space Wolves wiping them out.

The rumor was that wolves had fought their brothers before, but we now know it was the World Eaters.

The executioner bit is a self-appointed title with no authority.

Who utterly curbstomped them.

You can't actually state that Russ had nothing to do with the missing Primarchs in all certainty, because we have no real solid clue of what happened to the missing Primarchs.

Saying he definitely had nothing to do with them is just as bad as saying he absolutely had something to do with them.

Also, I am pretty sure that ADB specifically wrote the World Eaters thing into Betrayer because he doesn't like the "official executioners" thing Dan Abnett was spewing (And let's be honest, Dan Abnett was not being subtle about his pro-Space Wolf feth everyone else motive with Prospero Burns), because ADB doesn't give a feth about the canon other writers established.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

We never see him take an active role in a battle before Know No Fear. He didn't really do anything of substance in The First Heretic fight-wise.

Kor Phaeron and Erebus are said by some douche whose name I don't remember in Know No Fear to have once been the most powerful adepts within the Word Bearers Legion, with Lorgar only surpassing them after his manfight with Corax. Which IIRC is before Lorgar started penning the book of Lorgar.

Not that this really makes my point less valid though, since Lorgar and Magnus are still explicitly more powerful than Kor Phaeron, and if Kor Phaeron achieved that with just sorcery, then very talented psykers backed up by sorcery is even more potent.

The last bit should be no surprise, as evidenced by the epic amounts of whoopass the Thousand Sons were able to unleash once they cut loose.

Kor Phaeron was a cultist even before the Imperium discovered Lorgar, and Erebus was his foremost apprentice. I also doubt they were psykers because they weren't members of the Librarium. While some Primarchs who weren't fond of Magnus and/or psychic powers excluded their Legion from participating in the Librarium project, Lorgar was Magnus' biggest fanboy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaconUprising wrote:

Who utterly curbstomped them.

I wouldn't go so far considering they "won" the overall battle, but yes, 1v1 the berserkers outdo the Vikings.

That's what makes him such a great writer! I hate the HH space wolves and how they are portrayed. They are so arrogant and self assured and every writer who writes about them portrays them as a super force who are far stronger than any other space marines.

The reality that in an outright fight they would be utterly broken by most other legions (especially the thousand sons) find hilarious.

I really liked in Betrayal how Russ was so self assured and ye was crushed by his demented brother.

BaconUprising wrote:
That's what makes him such a great writer! I hate the HH space wolves and how they are portrayed. They are so arrogant and self assured and every writer who writes about them portrays them as a super force who are far stronger than any other space marines.

The reality that in an outright fight they would be utterly broken by most other legions (especially the thousand sons) find hilarious.

I really liked in Betrayal how Russ was so self assured and ye was crushed by his demented brother.

ADB is one of the most pro-wolf biased writers out there actually.

Betrayer was not an anti-wolf showing. It was a "Oh, you knocked my teeth out and I have piss dribbling down my leg, but we won the moral victory! Even if the moral victory required our writer pretending that Space Marines with bolters could put down a raging Primarch" showing. ADB himself said, out of universe, that the wolves were correct. Because despite apparently being such a great writer, he always feels the need to clarify out of universe to get across his intentions, and half the time what he says is not nearly the same as what he wrote.

Then there is the piece of gak that is The Emperor's Gift, where Logan Grimnar manages to outperform Angron, the Daemon Primarch, against Hyperion.

Yes on reflection he is very pro wolf. I did though enjoy the account of Russ being beaten senseless for once.

Here's rules for Magnus, Dorn, Perturabo, Russ, Lion, Ferrus, and Luther from a 3rd (or 4th?) Edition special scenario GW was running in stores.

I would look at these and the FW books, and then come up with something close.

Last I recall that was fan-made, and not even kind of canon.

They also happen to be terrible and VERY weak

BaconUprising wrote:
That's what makes him such a great writer! I hate the HH space wolves and how they are portrayed. They are so arrogant and self assured and every writer who writes about them portrays them as a super force who are far stronger than any other space marines.

The reality that in an outright fight they would be utterly broken by most other legions (especially the thousand sons) find hilarious.

I really liked in Betrayal how Russ was so self assured and ye was crushed by his demented brother.

Wow, this is brilliant, academy award for your anti bias...

First, learn to write (your mother language), I mean, my english is bad, but yours is.....criminal... Second, what Betrayal ? You mean Betrayer ? Third, don't degrade this thread into your petty hate, and please get back on topic ....



@Red Viper what is that ?

Oh good thing you showed up, Darth Marko has the quote I spoke of in his sig.

Why the anger? I typed it quickly I don't see why that offends you so much... It's not petty hate. I said I enjoyed reading Russ being humbled. I really dislike space wolves as you have probably ascertained, I fail to see why this offends you so?