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Alright can you make a viable competitive blood angels build in the current meta? It has bad match ups but can armour wall or mass assault marines/sang guard with fnp still make a run at top tables if played well?

You can't, really. The BA are the only astartes list using 5th edition pricing. The SW are only still remotely competitive because Grey Hunters are twice as good as tacs almost.

It's not the mechanics of the BA that sucks, its the pricing. Well, meqs in general are having problems this edition.

Martel732 wrote:
You can't, really. The BA are the only astartes list using 5th edition pricing. The SW are only still remotely competitive because Grey Hunters are twice as good as tacs almost.

Not even that anymore. New Tacs are better than Grey Hunters now. GH cost 1 pt more and the benefits of them (Counter-attack, access to Rending) don't really matter now with how the most used armies (Tau and Eldar) never assault you in the first place, while Daemons will still kick their ass in assault.

No, they're not. Grey Hunters still would wreck their faces. Grey Hunters own tacs still. Double special weapons. Counter attack . CC weapon. Yes, please.

Martel732 wrote:
No, they're not. Grey Hunters still would wreck their faces. Grey Hunters own tacs still. Double special weapons. Counter attack . CC weapon. Yes, please.

Like I just said, assault buffs in a meta where the strongest armies rarely assault you, they just shoot you off the board. And the few units they will use to assault you (wraiths) will kick GH ass regardless.

Yeah, but SW will become stronger once Nids and Orks get updates. And my BA certainly notice the SW as well. They really throw a crimp into my battle plans.

It's a big advantage that SW dont' have to pack anti-horde tech in their other slots, since their troops are anti-horde by just existing. It doesn't even matter if they get charged or not. That's such a huge advantage.

"once Nids and Orks get updates." is not relevant to current meta, and that was the original question.

SW still work, because they got some options of their own that makes them useful allies in some armies (and JotWW still kicks some MC nuts), but BA are really hopeless with their current rules.

They just don't pack enough...anything really. fast tanks tricks nullified by more expensive everthing.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, but SW will become stronger once Nids and Orks get updates. And my BA certainly notice the SW as well. They really throw a crimp into my battle plans.

It's a big advantage that SW dont' have to pack anti-horde tech in their other slots, since their troops are anti-horde by just existing. It doesn't even matter if they get charged or not. That's such a huge advantage.

Call me pessimistic, but considering how much even CDs are now a shooty army as well (their strongest units in no particular order are Soul Grinders, Fateweaver, LoC, mass pink horrors, DPs with the Tzeentch Primaris power, all which excel at shooting) I fully expect nids and orcs o follow the same route, in which case, once again there wil be very little assaulting


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And to answer the OPs original question (sorry for the derail):


BA really can't be competetive right now. As Martel said, its the pricing, especially now that the new vanilla dex is out. Best thing I can recommend is, until the new BA dex comes out sometime next year, just have your BA count as a Raven Guard successor chapter and use the new vanilla dex.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

BA really can't be competetive right now. As Martel said, its the pricing, especially now that the new vanilla dex is out. Best thing I can recommend is, until the new BA dex comes out sometime next year, just have your BA count as a Raven Guard successor chapter and use the new vanilla dex.

This is what I was planning on, but once I really looked at the new book, I realized that it just didn't mesh with my BA army at all. RG assault squads have two main draw backs from BA: they aren't scoring (unless you own IA9/10) and they can't take melta or plasma guns. If you have enough tac marines, I'd suggest using them as Salamanders or Ultramarines for a year. By the end of 2014, the sons of Sanguinius should get the new 'dex treatment and we'll get up off the floor again.

I have flamer ASM. I don't need them to score, really. Just cause trouble. If they can. We'll see how it works out.

 tomjoad wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

BA really can't be competetive right now. As Martel said, its the pricing, especially now that the new vanilla dex is out. Best thing I can recommend is, until the new BA dex comes out sometime next year, just have your BA count as a Raven Guard successor chapter and use the new vanilla dex.

This is what I was planning on, but once I really looked at the new book, I realized that it just didn't mesh with my BA army at all. RG assault squads have two main draw backs from BA: they aren't scoring (unless you own IA9/10) and they can't take melta or plasma guns. If you have enough tac marines, I'd suggest using them as Salamanders or Ultramarines for a year. By the end of 2014, the sons of Sanguinius should get the new 'dex treatment and we'll get up off the floor again.

I have no doubt, it's just a question of how to make do until then. Almost makes me glad I'm broke at the moment and can't even afford to start any new armies. Almost

I think they can still do mass armor 13!

No chance.
They were already too expensive and it really show with the new C:SM-release.

they aren't scoring (unless you own IA9/10)

It's actually IA8.
And I'm glad my friends allow it when I print out the page itself.

Blood Angels were my first army. Sadly, they have been sitting on the shelf since 6th came out.

Now that the Space Marine codex has been released, there are a few worrying things in it that have almost killed my hope for a better BA codex.

Things that give me hope:

1) Grav weapons. We might get them?

2) Cheaper librarians. Good 'ol Divination.

3) Command/Honor Guard got cheaper. Great for BA, because we can drop a cheap squad with special weapons that only scatters 6 inches and has FNP. Hoping to bring mine out of retirement.

Things that depress me:

1) Flamestorm cannons did not gain torrent. That doesn't mean they couldn't give Baal preds a different torrent weapon, but likely it won't happen, so they will probably stay as gun boats. Boooo.

2) Dreads didn't get any better. Drop podding into melta range is still a bad idea. Even worse when you don't have Ironclads.

3) Assault marines didn't get any better. Actually ASM in C:SM can't even take special weapons (unless i read it incorrectly). I'm sure BA will still be able to, but either way, I don't think they will change our ASM other than dropping the cost to be in line with 6th edition.

4) Rhinos/Razorbacks/Drop Pods all stayed the same. Unless they add a BA special rule, no assaulting out of them, and no points drop. Riptides and Heldrakes will be the bane of our existence.

IMHO, the success of BA in 6th edition will depend entirely on what they do with Sanguinary Guard and Sanguinary Priests. Unless there's some amazing new unit, of course.

There was a guy who did fairly well with a BA army with no allies at the NOVA Open, but I haven't been able to find his list anywhere.

Edit: Found it!

1850 Pts - Blood Angels Roster - Blood Angels Nova

HQ: Librarian in Power Armour (1#, 100 pts)
1 Librarian in Power Armour, 100 pts

HQ: Mephiston, Lord of Death (1#, 250 pts)
1 Mephiston, Lord of Death, 250 pts

Elite: Terminator Assault Squad (5#, 220 pts)
1 Terminator Assault Squad, 0 pts
4 Terminator with Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield, 180 pts = 4 * 45 (base cost 40 + Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield 5)
1 Sergeant, 40 pts

Elite: Sanguinary Priest (2#, 180 pts)
1 Sanguinary Priest, 0 pts
1 Brother Corbulo, 105 pts
1 Sanguinary Priest in Power Armour, 75 pts = (base cost 50 + Jump Pack 25)

Elite: Furioso Dreadnought (1#, 125 pts)
1 Furioso Dreadnought, 125 pts

Heavy Support: Stormraven Gunship (1#, 205 pts)
1 Stormraven Gunship, 205 pts = (base cost 200 + Extra Armour 5)

Heavy Support: Stormraven Gunship (1#, 205 pts)
1 Stormraven Gunship, 205 pts = (base cost 200 + Extra Armour 5)

Troops: Assault Squad (10#, 220 pts)
7 Assault Squad, 126 pts = 7 * 18
1 Assault Marine with Flamer, 23 pts = (base cost 18 + Flamer 5)
1 Assault Marine with Flamer, 23 pts = (base cost 18 + Flamer 5)
1 Sergeant, 48 pts = (base cost 28 + Melta Bombs 5) + Power Sword x1 15

Troops: Assault Squad (10#, 220 pts)
7 Assault Squad, 126 pts = 7 * 18
1 Assault Marine with Flamer, 23 pts = (base cost 18 + Flamer 5)
1 Assault Marine with Flamer, 23 pts = (base cost 18 + Flamer 5)
1 Sergeant, 48 pts = (base cost 28 + Melta Bombs 5) + Power Sword x1 15

Troops: Assault Squad (6#, 125 pts)
3 Assault Squad, 54 pts = 3 * 18
1 Assault Marine with Flamer, 23 pts = (base cost 18 + Flamer 5)
1 Sergeant, 28 pts
1 Razorback, 20 pts

And here's the comment on how it's played: " terminators and corbulo plus libby in a raven and meph in the other. the dread can float between them. corbulo has legit absorbed 40 wounds in a game for the terminators before. ridiculous ....love him."

Source: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=563651887003160&set=a.447035581998125.92110.444927288875621&type=1


Thoughts?

If the raven with Corbs is shot down, the list loses. So do that.

Martel732 wrote:
If the raven with Corbs is shot down, the list loses. So do that.

He went 6-2 in the second highest tier and even overcame multiple optimized Tau armies. Apparently it wasn't as easy to beat as you would suggest.

We have a name for that in MTG: http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Rogue_deck

 warpspider89 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If the raven with Corbs is shot down, the list loses. So do that.

He went 6-2 in the second highest tier and even overcame multiple optimized Tau armies. Apparently it wasn't as easy to beat as you would suggest.

It is, apparently, easy to thumb ones nose at actual results in a super competitive event. The guy in question is Kenny Boucher, and if you'd like to hear him talk about Blood Angels in a positive, competitive light, you can listen to podcast he's part of here:

http://www.forgethenarrative.com/2013/09/episode-24-bringing-back-blood-angels.html

The link above is him talking about what he was taking to NOVA. He didn't go into as much detail about his results in the follow up podcast, which was bummer, but if you want to hear someone other than Martel give you Blood Angel advice, give a listen to Kenny.

 doubled wrote:
Alright can you make a viable competitive blood angels build in the current meta? It has bad match ups but can armour wall or mass assault marines/sang guard with fnp still make a run at top tables if played well?

The good news is that they make a great 'counts-as' army for Codex:Space Marines.

 Voidwraith wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If the raven with Corbs is shot down, the list loses. So do that.

He went 6-2 in the second highest tier and even overcame multiple optimized Tau armies. Apparently it wasn't as easy to beat as you would suggest.

It is, apparently, easy to thumb ones nose at actual results in a super competitive event. The guy in question is Kenny Boucher, and if you'd like to hear him talk about Blood Angels in a positive, competitive light, you can listen to podcast he's part of here:

http://www.forgethenarrative.com/2013/09/episode-24-bringing-back-blood-angels.html

The link above is him talking about what he was taking to NOVA. He didn't go into as much detail about his results in the follow up podcast, which was bummer, but if you want to hear someone other than Martel give you Blood Angel advice, give a listen to Kenny.

I'll see what he has to say, but the strengths and holes of Stormraven spam lists are already known and acknowledged. He's using models that can survive Stormravens crashing, but they are still in reserve, which seems very suspect since many tourney games only go 4 turns.

One note: Grav is going to be really bad for what utility Mephiston had left.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warpspider89 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If the raven with Corbs is shot down, the list loses. So do that.

He went 6-2 in the second highest tier and even overcame multiple optimized Tau armies. Apparently it wasn't as easy to beat as you would suggest.

It doesn't seem that fearsome. I have beaten lists very similar to that. With BA, of course, not Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Obviously, he did well with this list. He didn't give that much actual advice. He didn't address his starting force having to weather the entire opponent's list. My games using multiple stormravens usually get off to a bad foot before the birds show up. But then again, there are also a ton of Vendettas where I play. Maybe that's really skewing my perceptions.

You can also do pure stormraven rush, which is very similar to landraider rush. The difference is you deepstrike the stormravens. The initial stuff you start on the board with is all dedicated to killing antiflyer stuff, then when the stormravens drop in, they have full control of the board.

Edit: I didn't invent it...but I was steamrolled by this version of flying circus a few times.

Deep striking something with that big of a base seems....... not wise.

Although I must admit this podcast has me a big intrigued. Maybe instead of completely dumping BA, maybe there is some merit to gishing them with C:SM to get grav bikers. My BA jump libby could then prescience the grav bikers on their initial 9 shot volley for maximum killiness.

But, but, but..
They lost Deep Strike with Skies of Fire (or whatever that thing is named).
They even put that in a FAQ.

BA are so bad we have problems in friendly games now. We only have a few good units (compared to the rest of the codex)

I'll be using a list really similar to Kenny Boucher's in a tournament this weeked, so I guess I'll try to do analysis on how it performs and such.

Lucarikx

Thanks for pointing this out. This does make me rethink BA viability a bit. But I think that the best BA can do at this point is provide spice C:SM. And DA certainly are better at providing divination.

Well i'm playing BA in our apocalypse battles. There are three new formations for them. In such games they are still fun to play.

They were OP in our last battle because I got to Deep Strike 4000 points of BA in the first turn without scattering, while they couldn't harm me since most of their shooting were Large Blasts and Lasguns
And Apocalypse is so big that the overcosted stuff doesn't matter that much.

What I want from BA is a niche.
Something that they are better at than any other Chapter.
Because right now I am having tons of ideas and tactics for friendly games, but it saddens me when I realize that for every tactic I pick there is a Chapter who is better at it.

Kangodo wrote:
They were OP in our last battle because I got to Deep Strike 4000 points of BA in the first turn without scattering, while they couldn't harm me since most of their shooting were Large Blasts and Lasguns
And Apocalypse is so big that the overcosted stuff doesn't matter that much.

What I want from BA is a niche.
Something that they are better at than any other Chapter.
Because right now I am having tons of ideas and tactics for friendly games, but it saddens me when I realize that for every tactic I pick there is a Chapter who is better at it.

Right. Overcosted units dont matter much. Next time i'll try the DC formation. It should be fun to see DC Marines with a ton of attacks.

Kangodo wrote:
We have a name for that in MTG: http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Rogue_deck

+1 for the best explanation with just a simple link.