Blood angels in the current landscape

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**Kangodo**

Good luck on that, our Apocalypse took 3 turns and we already 'won' after T2.
It's very hard to choose between: Charging after DS and no-scatter with DS.
It would be so perfect if we could take both of them

**Martel732**

Back to 40K BA a sec. Does anyone else think that 6th marine pricing will actually be a big benefit for the Stormraven? Or am I just thinking wishfully? I'd love to start running dual Stormraven so I can keep the boogeyman of Helldrakes away.

**Puscifer**

Thud wrote:
There was a guy who did fairly well with a BA army with no allies at the NOVA Open, but I haven't been able to find his list anywhere.

Edit: Found it!

1850 Pts - Blood Angels Roster - Blood Angels Nova

HQ: Librarian in Power Armour (1#, 100 pts)
1 Librarian in Power Armour, 100 pts

HQ: Mephiston, Lord of Death (1#, 250 pts)
1 Mephiston, Lord of Death, 250 pts

Elite: Terminator Assault Squad (5#, 220 pts)
1 Terminator Assault Squad, 0 pts
4 Terminator with Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield, 180 pts = 4 * 45 (base cost 40 + Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield 5)
1 Sergeant, 40 pts

Elite: Sanguinary Priest (2#, 180 pts)
1 Sanguinary Priest, 0 pts
1 Brother Corbulo, 105 pts
1 Sanguinary Priest in Power Armour, 75 pts = (base cost 50 + Jump Pack 25)

Elite: Furioso Dreadnought (1#, 125 pts)
1 Furioso Dreadnought, 125 pts

Heavy Support: Stormraven Gunship (1#, 205 pts)
1 Stormraven Gunship, 205 pts = (base cost 200 + Extra Armour 5)

Heavy Support: Stormraven Gunship (1#, 205 pts)
1 Stormraven Gunship, 205 pts = (base cost 200 + Extra Armour 5)

Troops: Assault Squad (10#, 220 pts)
7 Assault Squad, 126 pts = 7 * 18
1 Assault Marine with Flamer, 23 pts = (base cost 18 + Flamer 5)
1 Assault Marine with Flamer, 23 pts = (base cost 18 + Flamer 5)
1 Sergeant, 48 pts = (base cost 28 + Melta Bombs 5) + Power Sword x1 15

Troops: Assault Squad (10#, 220 pts)
7 Assault Squad, 126 pts = 7 * 18
1 Assault Marine with Flamer, 23 pts = (base cost 18 + Flamer 5)
1 Assault Marine with Flamer, 23 pts = (base cost 18 + Flamer 5)
1 Sergeant, 48 pts = (base cost 28 + Melta Bombs 5) + Power Sword x1 15

Troops: Assault Squad (6#, 125 pts)
3 Assault Squad, 54 pts = 3 * 18
1 Assault Marine with Flamer, 23 pts = (base cost 18 + Flamer 5)
1 Sergeant, 28 pts
1 Razorback, 20 pts

And here's the comment on how it's played: " terminators and corbulo plus libby in a raven and meph in the other. the dread can float between them. corbulo has legit absorbed 40 wounds in a game for the terminators before. ridiculous ....love him."

Source: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=563651887003160&set=a.447035581998125.92110.444927288875621&type=1

Thoughts?

That list is mega scary and for all the wrong reasons.

I wish it ported over to Vanilla Marines, but C:SM lacks a Beatstick and something to Tank Wounds like Corbulo.

Oh wait... Lysander.

**wuestenfux**

Martel732 wrote:
Back to 40K BA a sec. Does anyone else think that 6th marine pricing will actually be a big benefit for the Stormraven? Or am I just thinking wishfully? I'd love to start running dual Stormraven so I can keep the boogeyman of Helldrakes away.

Yeah. With cheaper Marines, Stormravens are more viable now.

**Martel732**

This particular list is extremely vulnerable until the ravens arrive. There are too many SW and other early pressure lists I run into that would make this hard for me to run.

I was hoping to make a dual raven list that 's a bit more balanced.

I might add that this list has no comm link aegis line, either. Gutsy, but not my style. I WILL roll double reserve fail on turn 2 if I try this.

**Puscifer**

Martel732 wrote:
This particular list is extremely vulnerable until the ravens arrive. There are too many SW and other early pressure lists I run into that would make this hard for me to run.

I was hoping to make a dual raven list that 's a bit more balanced.

I agree.

It needs to be anchored down with enough support to keep the army in the game early on.

As soon as it it's mid game, the tempo changes with a fair amount of stuff incoming for the BA.

**Martel732**

My fear is also based around Tau and Eldar crippling me by turn 2. Maybe these games have a lot more LOS blocking terrain. I'm betting burned down like a chump. I can't get out of their range, cover doesn't help, and I can't make enough saves.

**Puscifer**

Martel732 wrote:
My fear is also based around Tau and Eldar crippling me by turn 2. Maybe these games have a lot more LOS blocking terrain. I'm betting burned down like a chump. I can't get out of their range, cover doesn't help, and I can't make enough saves.

I faced Tau with a Dread Drop list this morning.

Never again... Ever.

1) It was the most boring list to play... Oh look, four Dreads on T1, let's kills stuff. Yes they killed stuff, a lot of stuff. Then I got tabled on T2 cuz I only had one reserve come in.
2) I greatly underestimated Tau Firepower. There's a lot, that seems inocuous, but then just bites your arm off.

**Martel732**

Tau and Eldar firepower are both quite bonkers.

Something else to consider for the meta: Iron Hands land raiders.

**Tactical_Genius**

Martel732 wrote:
Tau and Eldar firepower are both quite bonkers.

Something else to consider for the meta: Iron Hands land raider Achilles.

FTFY

**Puscifer**

Land Raiders and especially the Achilles is the way to go.

Two LRC and an Achilles... Just say no to Tau and Drakespam.

Add contents to taste.

**Kangodo**

Where do I find the Achilles-rules?
They should make a big 'content' list where every model lists the latest rules-update.

**hazal**

I am starting to feel double ravens is the only way to go with BA and be competitive.

Also Corbulo is definitely a competitive choice when used right.

*** has anyone found use for SG recently?

Oh I have been running a IH captian with eternal sheild and JP as a mephiston replacement recently.

**Akiasura**

So the guy who told me that after C:SM dropped BA would be the most powerful marines due to Vanguard Vets being considered op was wrong?

Color me astonished (its a mix of purple and yellow, fyi)

I don't think 6th was kind to BA. Until they get a new codex, just use them as C:SM (although you probably can't take advantage of bike spam as much as you'd like) with death company being sternguard or a command squad

**Kangodo**

Do you see any of the current lists running VV's?
We are the only Marines left that can charge after Deep Strike, that makes them special.
Too bad that they are overpriced and in a weak codex.

**hazal**

I bought 10 VV back in the early days of the BA codex... they are now all my sgts.

However I am hopeful for the next codex with the price adjustments seen on the C:SM book... and some hope for some relic items.

**Andilus Greatsword**

MadmanMSU wrote:
Now that the Space Marine codex has been released, there are a few worrying things in it that have almost killed my hope for a better BA codex.

Things that give me hope:

1) Grav weapons. We might get them?

I wouldn't count on it. If BA get them then DA get shafted. In fact I'd prefer if they just stayed as a C:SM-only thing to keep their own flavour. Of course, BA should get something else to compensate (like how DA get plasma talons, rad grenade launchers, etc).

MadmanMSU wrote:
2) Cheaper librarians. Good 'ol Divination.

3) Command/Honor Guard got cheaper. Great for BA, because we can drop a cheap squad with special weapons that only scatters 6 inches and has FNP. Hoping to bring mine out of retirement.

Count on these. In fact, if they keep up the BA's odd aversion to Artificer Armour in the 6th ed BA book, BA Honour Guard might be even cheaper than the C:SM ones. If nothing else, Libbies will at least be awesomely inexpensive.

MadmanMSU wrote:
2) Dreads didn't get any better. Drop podding into melta range is still a bad idea. Even worse when you don't have Ironclads.

Well don't forget that Furiosos are AV13 on the front... still bad, but worth remembering.

MadmanMSU wrote:
3) Assault marines didn't get any better. Actually ASM in C:SM can't even take special weapons (unless i read it incorrectly). I'm sure BA will still be able to, but either way, I don't think they will change our ASM other than dropping the cost to be in line with 6th edition.

This is true, at least they'll be a bit cheaper. And to be honest, if they were even cheaper it'd be borderline broken. As it is, they'll probably be the same price as C:SM ASM, but have scoring status, 2 special weapons, be able to be taken en mass, etc - not a bad deal.

Kangodo wrote:
Where do I find the Achilles-rules?
They should make a big 'content' list where every model lists the latest rules-update.

The latest rules are in Imperial Armour Apocalypse 2nd Ed. I believe... and they're freaking glorious. I plan on buying one very soon for my Space Wolves.

**Zagman**

Martel732 wrote:

I might add that this list has no comm link aegis line, either. Gutsy, but not my style. I WILL roll double reserve fail on turn 2 if I try this.

Martel732, really?!? For all of your numerous posts about the "maths" involved you believe such superstitious nonsense?

You will...

Get both in 4/9th of the time T2.
Get one in 4/9th of the time T2.
Get none in 1/9th of the time T2.

Barring enemy reserve manipulation.

**hazal**

**
I understand his concern, I often get corbulo on the table turn 1 (either starting or Droppod) so I can use his reserve roll if I really need that SR in turn 2.

**Thatguyoverthere11**

I play a 5th edition style list to great effect.

Mephiston
Librarian
Corbulo
8 sterns with combis in a pod
10 DC with 3 axes and a chaplain
Landraider crusader
Storm raven
DC dread

I have only lost once with it to a super optimized Eldar/DE list on a table that had trenches running across it... I had 5 dangerous terrain tests to make as I crossed the board so.... yeah my landraider got immobilized turn 1 and I came in piecemeal.

BA are fun to play and just because you might not win NOVA with them doesn't make them worthless.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I will add that the designers of NOVA intended to make certain style lists more effective than others. Hence, shooting lists do better than others.

**Kangodo**

Andilus Greatsword wrote:
I wouldn't count on it. If BA get them then DA get shafted. In fact I'd prefer if they just stayed as a C:SM-only thing to keep their own flavour. Of course, BA should get something else to compensate (like how DA get plasma talons, rad grenade launchers, etc).

Maybe cheaper hand-flamers and melta-pistols with bigger range?

Well don't forget that Furiosos are AV13 on the front... still bad, but worth remembering.

The only thing I REALLY want is them to have melta-immunity or something.
It's not fun to have almost every charge fail because you have to get in melta-range first and then survive overwatch.

The latest rules are in Imperial Armour Apocalypse 2nd Ed. I believe... and they're freaking glorious. I plan on buying one very soon for my Space Wolves.

Thank you, I will obtain those rules

Edit: Ooh dear Lord, that thing is awesome.

**hyv3mynd**

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
I play a 5th edition style list to great effect.

Mephiston
Librarian
Corbulo
8 sterns with combis in a pod
10 DC with 3 axes and a chaplain
Landraider crusader
Storm raven
DC dread

I have only lost once with it to a super optimized Eldar/DE list on a table that had trenches running across it... I had 5 dangerous terrain tests to make as I crossed the board so.... yeah my landraider got immobilized turn 1 and I came in piecemeal.

BA are fun to play and just because you might not win NOVA with them doesn't make them worthless.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I will add that the designers of NOVA intended to make certain style lists more effective than others. Hence, shooting lists do better than others.

You only lost 1 game with an army that has 0 scoring units? I find that very hard to believe.

**Thatguyoverthere11**

6th edition revolutionized list building because you don't have to score to win. I always got first blood, I always got slay the warlord and I always got line breaker. At my shop we play 5 objectives and KPs concurrently so everyone can compete. Again, that is another example of how missions affect what is good.

I didn't encounter any FMCs or anything like that. I want to say it was C:SM mech spam, a Tau player and Eldar/DE.

**darkdm**

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
6th edition revolutionized list building because you don't have to score to win. I always got first blood, I always got slay the warlord and I always got line breaker. At my shop we play 5 objectives and KPs concurrently so everyone can compete. Again, that is another example of how missions affect what is good.

I didn't encounter any FMCs or anything like that. I want to say it was C:SM mech spam, a Tau player and Eldar/DE.

I can't really agree it revolutionized list building. In your meta, if you can run kill points and 5 objectives concurrently, then awesome. I know with my store (and probably most) we run the plain old book missions, unless we're running tournament missions for practice. So you really should have scoring units in there if that's the case.

That being said, your list is not far off the mark from a list that another player at my store and I have been discussing a lot and play testing. The big differences being it has 4 scouts as scoring units (some with locater beacons) and no Mephiston. We've run into problems playing other lists, but it's the best list we've come up for a competitive blood angels list.

**Thatguyoverthere11**

In my experience, if the opponent can't shoot you off the table, the list has no problems clearing off all the objectives.

Mephiston is really only good against 3+ saves. Against riptidesI just hope they roll a 1 so I can force weapon them. Against terminators, the DC handle them very well.

**Martel732**

Zagman wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

I might add that this list has no comm link aegis line, either. Gutsy, but not my style. I WILL roll double reserve fail on turn 2 if I try this.

Martel732, really?!? For all of your numerous posts about the "maths" involved you believe such superstitious nonsense?

You will...

Get both in 4/9th of the time T2.
Get one in 4/9th of the time T2.
Get none in 1/9th of the time T2.

Barring enemy reserve manipulation.

My dice just seem to not come through at the worst of times. I've seen lots of games go wrong because of reserves. Lots of them.

**scuddman**

Well, I used to say scout bikes were the answer. Jump marines and scout bikes worked really well together in 5th. The scout bikes could pop vehicles and could disrupt shooters on the first turn, but disruption is a lot worse now than it is before.

I still think you can do assault marines, but the rest of the list needs to be geared towards shooting support. I think if you do nothing but assault marines, you literally can't win.
3-4 squads of assault marines backed up with shooting just makes so much more sense to me.

Things that syngergize well with assault marines:
1. Bikes of all types
2. Landspeeders, although not as well as bikes.
3. dreadnoughts of all type. I prefer shooty ones, but your mileage will vary.

Specifically things that move and shoot well. Why? Because they can help in hth in a pinch, but more importantly, they draw fire and they also allow you to shoot down things you can't beat in hth. Since they can move as well, they can keep up with the other squads. And since bikes are toughness 5 with 3+ armor and can get into hth quicker, sometimes tying up that guard squad/broadsides/whatever is more helpful than just having a billion assault marines that are guaranteed to be shot at the turn they show up.

**hazal**

I think more importantly.

What can we take from the C:SM to make us more competitive?

- New beaty HQ's that can travel with a pack?
* (IH/JP/ES/PF/AA etc)
- IWND dreads to go with ours.
- Stormtalons
- Cheaper troops?
- Centurions?
- Stalker/hunter?

etc...

**Puscifer**

I must admit, Blood Angels do tempt me.

There was a battle report back in WD vs Eldar back around issue 150 that got me liking them.

Two reasons why I don't:

I hate painting red.

I HATE PAINTING RED!!!

**hazal**

My blood angels are called the "grey snakes" they are light grey with orange highlights. No red here

Make your own chapter =D