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Alright, so I have always loved the idea of guard artillery spam. Something about lobbing a ton of pie plates a turn from behind cover just makes me go "tee hee". So I bought a bunch of guard and have yet to play them (I have one large order shipping still, so I am waiting for that). However, I really need to know how to utilize my guard. I am asking questions about what tactics to use with what I have and what I should do with what I have. I don't know if this belongs more in the tactics or list section, but I'll put it here since I am really concerned with tactics.

I have:
2 CCS/PCS
~100 Guardsmen with lasguns
~15 flamer guardsmen
~10 Grenade launchers gm
~15 Plasmaguns gm
~3 meltagun gm

6 Chimera
1 LR BT/Vanquisher
1 LR Demolisher
2 Manticore
1 Basilisk
1 Vendetta

So I was thining running:
HQ:
CCS, w/ MoO: 80pts

Troops:
3x Vet Squad, 3 Plasmagun, Chimera: 3x170pts
3x Vet Squad, 3 Grenade Launcher, Chimera: 3x140pts

Fast Attack:
Vendetta Gunship: 130

Heavy Support:
2x Manticore: 2x 160pts
1x Basilisk

ADL with quad gun: 100pts

Plan: Park a building in front of the ?middle? ?corner? edge of my side the board, park the artillery behind it, wrap some chimeras around the artillery (the ones with GLs and get those troops out of there to shoot behin the ADL), put the ADL in between the chimera and the enemy, then get the plasma vets in their chimera to camp around the ADL. Send in the Valkyrie to pop some armor I need gone. Then just sit and drop pie plates, charge objectives near the end of the game.

So, what should I change? I AM REALLY NEW TO GUARD, only played against em twice. I havn't gamed in a few months, so I am pretty rusty, any advice will help.

THANK YOU SO MUCH IN ADVANCE!

The idea of a huge amount of artillery pounding the enemy with a fairly static base of troops is a fairly good one, it can work amazingly well if you can manage to hide the vehicles that are doing the killing.

To that end, you should probably be looking at platoon infantry rather than vets to bubble-wrap the artillery. You simply get far more bodies from the points, and can still bring Chimeras as dedicated transports/mobile cover. Here's a foot-horde/artillery list that I think is pretty good, you'll need to tweak it a bit to fit your models, but it should give you an idea.

Foot-Guard with artillery support, 1500 points::

CCS, Lascannon, Standard: 85

Marbo: 65

PCS, 2x flamers: 40
PIS, melta, Lascannon: 80
PIS, melta, Lascannon: 80
PIS, melta, Lascannon: 80

PCS, 2x flamers: 40
PIS, melta, Lascannon: 80
PIS, melta, Lascannon: 80
PIS, melta, Lascannon: 80

PCS, 2x flamers: 40
PIS, melta, Lascannon: 80
PIS, melta, Lascannon: 80
PIS, melta, Lascannon: 80


Manticore: 160

Basilisk: 125

Basilisk: 125
Aegis Defence line, Quad Gun: 100

total: 1500

You have enough bodies here to bubble-wrap the artillery pieces, while still providing great killing power with Lascannons at range and melta up close, both of which are able to use BID or FOMT from the CCS.

To fit in a flier, chimeras or some more artillery then you can always drop a platoon or some upgrades, but this is a good example of a static artillery list.

Hope that helps.

I am a stout advocate of the basilisk based army. But you do have to go big or go home. I have 5 basilisks that I run a a squadron of 3 and a squadron of 2. Although I usually just run the 3 for most games. (Mainly because the other 2 are hand me downs that are crappiliy painted)

The basilisk strategy in a nut shell is to hold your objectives and blast the enemies off of theirs. When placing objectives place them nice and in the open or right outside a nice piece of cover denying the opponent from putting an objective there. The point being that you use the basilisks to anihillate any unit there holding the objective. That is where the 3 squadron comes into play. Dropping 3 templates onto almost any troop choice in the game is pretty much guaranteed to leave no surviviors. Individual basilisks are not nearly as effective at this because casualties are removed as you fire them and it is actually quite difficult to hit 1 or 2 models with ordinance templates.

Against Gunline armies most players will close with you, so if you have just deprived them of one of 'their' objectives then they can either pull a unit back to retake it or fight you over one of your objectives. Either way you are in a better situation.

Another option you could try is Mortar spam on your troops. Griffins are also not bad choice in this kind of list.

But to be honest if your idea of anti-vehicles is artillery, your probably not going to be satisfied. Consider the following... When you placed your blast marker, the center hole must be entirely over a hull or fig base. You now have a 33% chance to hit because the scatter dice only has 'Hit' on 2 sides. If it is a indirect shot, you do not reduce the shot's scatter by your BS and a average roll on 2d6 is 7".

If you do hit (and we are talking around 40-45% here), you get to roll 2d6 and choose the highest dice for armor pen due to being Ordnance. So a Str 10 Basilisk still only pens a Land Raider on a 5+ and glances on a 4. Vehicles like Leman Russes and Battle Wagons with AV 14 fronts and weaker side and rear armor always save against the side that is facing the shooter. Barrage weapons hit the side armor of a vehicle.

If your Artillery shot is not a Barrage shot or Ignores Cover shot, your target will get a cover save (Jink, in Terrain, Night fighting, etc). Barrage weapons still allow cover saves, but the perspective is taken from the center of the blast marker, instead of a direct line between shooter and target. So a vehicle behind a ADL is fired on, but scatters so that the center hole has the ADL between it and the Vehicle, the vehicle still gets a cover save. If it was a direct hit or scatters and still hits the vehicle without the ADL between the center hole and the vehicle, the vehicle doesn't get a cover save. Jink saves and Night Fighting saves can still be taken against Barrage.

The short of it is your going to miss more than 50% of the time. When you do hit, you still have to pen, Even if you do pen, they will probably get a cover save to get a roll to negate the pen. And if the pen goes through, you want it to do something.

Your going to want to either spam artillery or resign yourself to the fact that artillery is best against troops and not vehicles. And if your going against troops, troops can choose to go to ground to get a cover save. Thus you /really/ want something like a Colossus that ignores cover and has a fairly low AP for killing troops.

There is a reason why Para is telling you to spam Lascannons, because it is a cheaper and more effective option.

Yeah, I forgot to mention that, basilisks are possibly not the best artillery choice. I'd actually suggest taking specialised weapons. Take a griffon or colossus for clearing objectives (griffons are great for anti-infantry) and then a medusa or two for AT. Even a LR Vanquisher. Failing that, infantry LC is still a great option, allowing your arty to focus purely on blasting objectives and crowd control.

The Collossus is the go to artillery piece for removing troops from cover. It is str 6 so it will be causing instant death to most Xenos. It ignores cover, typically where cowardly Xenos scum like to hide. It also is ap3, negating all but 2+ armor saves.

Thanks for your help guys. Im glad you included Marbo in there paradigm, I really like the trouble he can cause. I didn't hear anyone talk much about my matnicores at all, does that mean they are a sound unit or something I should avoid?

Oh god, Manticores. Whoever thought putting multiple S10 barrage pie plates in the game needs to become acquainted with my foot.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Oh god, Manticores. Whoever thought putting multiple S10 barrage pie plates in the game needs to become acquainted with my foot.

LOL Ya, manticores were the reason I got guard. I bought two of them, so that is 2-6 S10 pie plates a turn, that are ordnance barrage.

Edit; I hope they dont nerf them when the new dex drops.

Just don't stick them in a corner behind an aegis. People hate that non-moving gunline gak and if you do it, you'll get less games, meaning less experience.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Just don't stick them in a corner behind an aegis. People hate that non-moving gunline gak and if you do it, you'll get less games, meaning less experience.

Thanks for the tactic

 Dakkamite wrote:
Just don't stick them in a corner behind an aegis. People hate that non-moving gunline gak and if you do it, you'll get less games, meaning less experience.

Note that this is entirely a problem with certain people and how they want the game to go. In terms of winning parking a Manticore gunline behind an ADL (or, even better, behind LOS blocking terrain) is a great way to win games.

I'm in love with the Colossus like the Lion of the Forest said, great at eating up Tau Pathfinders and Eldar Rangers and well anything not Meq. If you get the tickle to do so I also have been adding in a Dark Angel Librarian with Prescience is real fun for me now a days.

First of all play the way you want to, dont let other people dictate how you want to play the game, even if they find it "boring" its your army do what you want with it. In regards to the artillery spam list do not use Basalisks for the sole reason that if you are a gunline, your opponent will come at you and the minimum range of them will make them ineffective. I would only take x1 Manticore and run as many Griffons or Medusas as possible instead, you will have your one long range nast unit but with those two artillery pieces you will have artillery that can fire at much closer range, keeping up your rate of fire.

Just a note on minimum range, as it's easy to miss how it changed. It now ust means you can't direct fire (ie. minus BS from scatter) within the range, you can still fire, you just scatter the full 2d6.

The real flaw of the basilisk is its general use in an army that needs to specialise, so I'd suggest taking double-griffon batteries for horde control, a medusa or two for AT, and a Manticore. In terms of the effectiveness of the latter, they are pretty epic, especially if you see a lot of xenos/GEQ where the lower AP will not be an issue. They are also great at putting the hurt on parking lots, as 2d6-pick highest to pen on S10 means you've got a good chance to pen most things, and even if you don't explode them, you can still rack up a good number of stunned/immobilised/weapon destroyed.

Basically for Manticores, you need to prioritise targets you will do most damage to, so hit 4+ or worse save infantry first, then light vehicles. You only get a limited number of shots, so you need to make the most of each one.

Another tactic for this kind of list is to advance with your own infantry after a couple of turns, to form a human wall and keep the enemy in optimum range for your big guns. You'll lose the infantry, but you might be able to keep your artillery firing for longer. You could even run them as separate squads to create even more roadblocks.

Also remember that a Manticore only has 4 shots, and I have seen more and more games last longer than 4 turns.

One thing I often consider with a manticore to make best use of the limited shots is to factor in a turn in which you choose not to shoot. I'd say always fire T1+2, as that's when you've got the most enemies on the board and they have had less chance to spread out, but I can see not firing T3 to ensure you have a shot left if you need objectives cleared on T5.

It's not a perfect solution, but it does mitigate the lack of shots if you're confident you can keep it alive that long.

Problem with that is you don't want the game to end on Turn 4 with a rocket left on the rack, or worse yet get killed in their Turn 3 and to not have fired when you had the chance before you died.

You just have to suck it up and fire every turn you can and hope that when you do run out there isn't a lot left. You still have a Hull Heavy Bolter.

Games will last until at least T5 unless you get tabled, so that's not much of an issue, and as I said, you do need to be confident you can keep it alive (behind LOS-blocking terrain, bubble-wrapped to prevent DS) to attempt this. It is a risk, but maybe one that is worth taking. I will have to experiment with it at some point.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
Just don't stick them in a corner behind an aegis. People hate that non-moving gunline gak and if you do it, you'll get less games, meaning less experience.

Note that this is entirely a problem with certain people and how they want the game to go. In terms of winning parking a Manticore gunline behind an ADL (or, even better, behind LOS blocking terrain) is a great way to win games.

^.^ yup, thats the way to play! Thats why I love manticores.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paradigm wrote:
Games will last until at least T5 unless you get tabled, so that's not much of an issue, and as I said, you do need to be confident you can keep it alive (behind LOS-blocking terrain, bubble-wrapped to prevent DS) to attempt this. It is a risk, but maybe one that is worth taking. I will have to experiment with it at some point.

Its a really big gamble, and like you said, I would only do it if I was confident in would last the full game, if it looks like they might get popped, Id just fire everything.

Well, if you mean fire everything as in fire your Heavy Bolter and a Missile in the same round, just remember you can't split fire. The Manticore's 'Limited Ammunition' on pg 54 is pretty clear concerning the rockets.

Here is the only other rule to keep in mind, from the IG FAQ.

Q: If a Manticore suffers a Weapon Destroyed result, does it destroy all its remaining storm eagle rockets? (p54)
A: Yes.

 Paradigm wrote:
One thing I often consider with a manticore to make best use of the limited shots is to factor in a turn in which you choose not to shoot. I'd say always fire T1+2, as that's when you've got the most enemies on the board and they have had less chance to spread out, but I can see not firing T3 to ensure you have a shot left if you need objectives cleared on T5.

This doesn't make any sense. Why would you want to wait until turn 5 to kill an objective holding unit when you can kill it on turn 3 and keep it from shooting back? The only reason I'd ever even consider holding back a shot would be if there isn't a good target available yet.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
One thing I often consider with a manticore to make best use of the limited shots is to factor in a turn in which you choose not to shoot. I'd say always fire T1+2, as that's when you've got the most enemies on the board and they have had less chance to spread out, but I can see not firing T3 to ensure you have a shot left if you need objectives cleared on T5.

This doesn't make any sense. Why would you want to wait until turn 5 to kill an objective holding unit when you can kill it on turn 3 and keep it from shooting back? The only reason I'd ever even consider holding back a shot would be if there isn't a good target available yet.

I agree, especially since you dont want to have to rely on the manticore to have to kill all the squad. The earlier you fire, the more advanced planning you have to finish off the stragglers with the rest of your army.

 BlkTom wrote:


But to be honest if your idea of anti-vehicles is artillery, your probably not going to be satisfied. Consider the following... When you placed your blast marker, the center hole must be entirely over a hull or fig base. You now have a 33% chance to hit because the scatter dice only has 'Hit' on 2 sides. If it is a indirect shot, you do not reduce the shot's scatter by your BS and a average roll on 2d6 is 7".

Artillery does now does anti av pretty well. Any portion of the blast marker can touch the full in 6th, not just the centre hole...

 Barksdale wrote:

 BlkTom wrote:


But to be honest if your idea of anti-vehicles is artillery, your probably not going to be satisfied. Consider the following... When you placed your blast marker, the center hole must be entirely over a hull or fig base. You now have a 33% chance to hit because the scatter dice only has 'Hit' on 2 sides. If it is a indirect shot, you do not reduce the shot's scatter by your BS and a average roll on 2d6 is 7".

Artillery does now does anti av pretty well. Any portion of the blast marker can touch the full in 6th, not just the centre hole...

Totally disagree. Scatter alone makes it to unreliable for the points your spending. The only way to make up for scatter it to mass arty, and when you spend 500pts on arty to kill one 150pt vehicle, your wasting your time and resources.

 BlkTom wrote:

 Barksdale wrote:

 BlkTom wrote:


But to be honest if your idea of anti-vehicles is artillery, your probably not going to be satisfied. Consider the following... When you placed your blast marker, the center hole must be entirely over a hull or fig base. You now have a 33% chance to hit because the scatter dice only has 'Hit' on 2 sides. If it is a indirect shot, you do not reduce the shot's scatter by your BS and a average roll on 2d6 is 7".

Artillery does now does anti av pretty well. Any portion of the blast marker can touch the full in 6th, not just the centre hole...

Totally disagree. Scatter alone makes it to unreliable for the points your spending. The only way to make up for scatter it to mass arty, and when you spend 500pts on arty to kill one 150pt vehicle, your wasting your time and resources.

I see your point, however, you have a 2/6 chance to hit. With Guard, that is only slightly worse than your 3/6 chance to hit with your 3 BS. And if you do scatter, there is still a chance to hit, so it is about the same as your 3BS. And unless you are using something like the vaquisher that isn't ordnance, even if you do have a lascannon, you are only able to fire it at BS1. Something like a manticore will fire an average of 2 times a turn anyway, which is much better than any of the ordnance tanks with a lascannon anyway (imo).

The only problem with relying on non-medusa arty for tank busting is that it's not AP1 or 2, so you're fishing for 6s with low-ROF weapons, or just stripping HP. While I won't deny the advantage that a good immobilise or weapon destroy will bring, it's not the best return on investment. For tank-busting, I tend to go for kitted out Vanquishers, melta veterans or DS stormies, as arty is just better at anti-infantry 9/10 times.

I like para's list but I feel like power weps on the sergeant would get more use than the special weapon, which if you are hunkered down will only get to fire once, maybe. It makes it good for removing the assault decision as a no brainer. Like in the list with special weapons, my ravenwing take a two second glance and come up with 'turbo boost, assault, sweep, kraks on artillery'. I think the same thing with blobs that have power weapon sergeants but I know I'm going to have a lot fewer motorcycle enthusiasts on the other side than I started with. Especially if you modeled the sarges with power axes.

 Paradigm wrote:
The only problem with relying on non-medusa arty for tank busting is that it's not AP1 or 2, so you're fishing for 6s with low-ROF weapons, or just stripping HP. While I won't deny the advantage that a good immobilise or weapon destroy will bring, it's not the best return on investment. For tank-busting, I tend to go for kitted out Vanquishers, melta veterans or DS stormies, as arty is just better at anti-infantry 9/10 times.

Hmm, I dont know, I know a lot of people use the Vanquisher as AT, but its Str 8 Ap2. I would rather have Str 10 and have a regular roll on the damage table, then have str 8 and a roll +1 on the damage table. Of course you could also give the vanquisher a lascannon, but still, I think the manticore is better, since it has 1-3 str 10 shots that will end up hitting something. The lascannon Vanquisher on average will have 1 hit, which is about the same as the manticore, except the manticore has 10str and the vanquisher has Ap2, the big difference is the manticore can decimate infantry as well. I think they have about the same chance to destroy a tank, but the manticore can really hurt infantry as well as shoot from cover.

EDIT: But I do agree abut the melta vets and DS stormies.

 BlkTom wrote:


Totally disagree. Scatter alone makes it to unreliable for the points your spending. The only way to make up for scatter it to mass arty, and when you spend 500pts on arty to kill one 150pt vehicle, your wasting your time and resources.

It's not as bad as you think. Even if you scatter, any part of the template can hit a hull for a full strength hit. Plus with ordnance barrage you are auto hitting side armour, plus you get 2d6 pick the highest for armour penetration, so you get almost always get a pen. The only downsides are that the Manticore and Bassy are ap4/ap3 and can't target fliers, but they are still solid choices to support your other anti vehicle weapons, and can target infantry as well. Run the numbers, the probabilities make them solid choices.