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My fiancee is starting to build her first army (Eldar) and she's going for a mostly Wraith army. What is generally the best load out for the Wraithknight? 2 shoulder mounted Shuriken Cannons with 2 heavy Wraithcannons? She may get two eventually but this is the only one so far, along with a number of Wraithguard/blades, Warp Spiders, Spiritseer, Farseer, and some other units.

Honestly, most people think the default loadout is best. He's Monstrous Creature so you "only" get to fire two weapons. His default weapons are pretty nasty powerful. He's also already S10 and MC grants Smash so the only thing you get out of dropping the cannons for the sword is rerolling your 1's and a 5+ invuln. It costs too much to also add two more guns to him on top of that.

The only other build I see being worth it is going Suncannon/Scattershield and adding a Scatterlaser. That's still a ton of points (60) for what's essentially making it anti-troop rather than anti-tank/MC, and an invulnerable save.

He's incredibly effective with his default loadout. Everything else IMHO is for cool modeling purposes.

Ok, that's what I figured, thanks so much! I think she'll be building it default, and then the next one she gets will be the sword and Scattershield since we both love how that looks much more haha


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And default would be with no shoulder mounted guns right? Since they are useless using 2 main guns?

Yes, you can't use the shoulder guns if you fire the 2 wraithcannons (which you should).

Generally the best are Stock (no upgrades) or Suncannon + single Scatter Laser.

Which one depends on what the rest of the army needs/wants.

The problem with the Suncannon isn't that it's not as good as the Wraithcannons. It's just as good, but against a very different target of choice. It's the fact that you're basically paying 60-points for an inv save.

Honestly, I have no idea what were they thinking with the price of upgrades for the Knight, they make no sense at all, especially the sword and shield one.

The Inv save is quite highly valued for it by GW. It would be a big deal if it weren't so easy for the WK to get a cover save.

Well, I'd opt for the standard loadout to keep him as cheap as possible. Use guide or prescience to improve his shooting.

 Araenion wrote:
The problem with the Suncannon isn't that it's not as good as the Wraithcannons. It's just as good, but against a very different target of choice. It's the fact that you're basically paying 60-points for an inv save.

Indeed, but to be honest, I've never had a problem killing/ignoring a stock wraithknight...scattersun scares the heck out of most of my armies though.

Trash bin...

I think its the best thing to play them.

I think the stock load out is good, then just let your opponent have kittens about whether to ignore it or find something to kill / tarpit it in combat.

ScatterSun Knight can shoot infantry/MCs and step on tanks/MCs.

Stock Knight can shoot tanks/MCs and step on tanks/MCs.

You're paying 60pts for a boost in viability and an invul save. Very worth it, imo.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
ScatterSun Knight can shoot infantry/MCs and step on tanks/MCs.

Stock Knight can shoot tanks/MCs and step on tanks/MCs.

You're paying 60pts for a boost in viability and an invul save. Very worth it, imo.

The issue is that its not something that the Eldar army needs. You have plentiful access to anti infantry firepower, but long range anti tank firepower is harder to fit in. For me the gun is a huge downgrade, the Wraithcannon is one of the best weapons in the game, S10 AP2 which can instant death anything is pretty hard to beat. At best I would consider a Wraithcannon a like for like swap for a Suncannon even without factoring in the usefulness in the context of the army. Its worth noting that in competitive play a) Terminators basically don't get used b)people know how to space their units properly so that a small blast gets 1-2 hits each - so you are essentially comparing 4-5 dead Marines per turn vs the 2 S10 shots. That means that you are really just paying 60pts for a 5++, and with the area terrain rules you really have no need for it. The only good thing about the Suncannon loadout is that at least its better than the Sword and Board loadout - I have no idea what they were smoking when they decided that losing 2 S10 shots for a single re-roll to hit and a 5++ was worth an increased number of points...

It doesn't lack in anti-MC/vehicle shooting either, and can certainly find better platforms for it in the heavy slot. Fire Prisms and 2x Brightlance War Walker squadrons come to mind, Fire Dragons in Elite (can also take a serpent), and Guardian blobs with Brightlance platforms in troops (can also take a serpent). So why even consider the Knight? 240pts for two shots is pitiful, even at Str10 AP2. I'd rather pay 300 for a unit that can tackle anything on the board than 240 for one that can only tackle two things effectively.

Thing is, I'd be much more scared if I was facing twin Scatterlasers War Walkers and a stock WK, than if I was facing twin BL Walkers and a Suncannon WK.

4-5 dead marines IF he doesn't go to ground. Also, one of the coolest tactics you can use with a WK is exploding a transport with your Wraithcannons and then assaulting the inhabitants with 5 S10 attacks.

If the points were the same, I'd consider the switch, this way it's not even debatable. The way I see it the only time a Suncannon Knight is useful is if you're using 2 or 3, then making the Suncannon one your Warlord.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
It doesn't lack in anti-MC/vehicle shooting either, and can certainly find better platforms for it in the heavy slot. Fire Prisms and 2x Brightlance War Walker squadrons come to mind, Fire Dragons in Elite (can also take a serpent), and Guardian blobs with Brightlance platforms in troops (can also take a serpent). So why even consider the Knight? 240pts for two shots is pitiful, even at Str10 AP2. I'd rather pay 300 for a unit that can tackle anything on the board than 240 for one that can only tackle two things effectively.

Prisms being a single shot means they are way worse than a WK for anti tank (unless you Guide it, but then the WK is better if you Guide it as well). War Walkers get to kill one unit and then melt in the first turn your opponent gets to shoot back at them. Dragons in a Serpent are a completely different role - this isn't 5th where short ranged anti tank was the name of the game, now I mostly see Dragons used as close range anti MC duty. The fact that at best they aren't going to be hitting something till turn 3 means you really just use them as a counter unit - you hold them back and point them at something that is in a forward threatening position and remove it.

In any case if you are looking at a WK in terms of number of shots, or even in terms of damage output you are completely in the wrong mindset. The single reason that Wraithknights are such a threat and are so popular in competitive builds is because of their board control and threat projection. The guns are nice because they give you something to do while you stand in the middle of the board and scare the crap out of everything within 24" while being a nightmare to get rid of - but the biggest thing they give you is control of the table, which is probably the most important (and least understood) aspect of competitive play.

@Araenion. Even if you ran a Suncannon WK (and I agree its only worth considering if you run 3) its still not worth it being the Warlord - if he became a character as well then it would be amazing - but the random buffs you can get don't outweigh the disadvantage of the extra VP from losing the Warlord.

Powerguy wrote:

Prisms being a single shot means they are way worse than a WK for anti tank (unless you Guide it, but then the WK is better if you Guide it as well). War Walkers get to kill one unit and then melt in the first turn your opponent gets to shoot back at them. Dragons in a Serpent are a completely different role - this isn't 5th where short ranged anti tank was the name of the game, now I mostly see Dragons used as close range anti MC duty. The fact that at best they aren't going to be hitting something till turn 3 means you really just use them as a counter unit - you hold them back and point them at something that is in a forward threatening position and remove it.

In any case if you are looking at a WK in terms of number of shots, or even in terms of damage output you are completely in the wrong mindset. The single reason that Wraithknights are such a threat and are so popular in competitive builds is because of their board control and threat projection. The guns are nice because they give you something to do while you stand in the middle of the board and scare the crap out of everything within 24" while being a nightmare to get rid of - but the biggest thing they give you is control of the table, which is probably the most important (and least understood) aspect of competitive play.

@Araenion. Even if you ran a Suncannon WK (and I agree its only worth considering if you run 3) its still not worth it being the Warlord - if he became a character as well then it would be amazing - but the random buffs you can get don't outweigh the disadvantage of the extra VP from losing the Warlord.

Man, I really would be afraid of the board control a Wraithknight gives if it gave any. Maybe amateur 40kers are afraid of something big, but unless it's got the stats and hardware to back it up it's just there to take up space. I'm not afraid of two solid-slug rounds, but then I don't field MCs - I run Space Marines. You're getting one tank or two models, best case. Couldn't care less. Maybe for MC lists where they're in danger of something getting 6'd to wound, or someone who pours a huge margin of points into a tank - but keeping that out of 36'' of a Wraithknight isn't a project (assuming you have first turn). 48'' makes it a lascannon or brightlance, and I've danced out of their range as well. Sure, you can assault with your Wraithknight - and then I'll see it at the end of the game I guess, because it's staying put if anyone has anything to say about.

Aforementioned options are not NEARLY as terrible as you'd like them to look. Prism has versatility, points cost, easily accessible cover saves on its side - as well as a more powerful main gun than the Knight courtesy of S9 LANCE and AP1. Warwalkers are infinitely cheaper and field triple the firepower of a Knight, with model count and six hull points to back up a low AV and open-topped status. Fire Dragons are, admittedly, short ranged. But I pray for anyone who leaves something important within 18'' of them if they're mounted in a Serpent - because it WILL die.

Now I'm not saying that a stock Knight is a bad thing. It's still a threatening model, and the Distortion rule and naturally high strength of the guns is cause for concern. I simply don't bat an eye at putting in those 60pts for what I perceive to be a huge boost in threat range the Knight can put out.

If that one tank is a land raider, you look very silly with your foot slogging terminators.

How is this an argument for how good or bad wraith knights are...the topic is the best load out for one...

Keep it cheaper and rely on T8 3+. Plus the suncannon fill a niche the Eldar are totally overloaded in. They need more S6 like a hole in the head.

Martel732 wrote:
If that one tank is a land raider, you look very silly with your foot slogging terminators.

People running Land Raiders full of terminators look silly anyway. But that's another discussion.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If that one tank is a land raider, you look very silly with your foot slogging terminators.

People running Land Raiders full of terminators look silly anyway. But that's another discussion.

It's not too bad in an meq slap-fight.

If you're just using the wraith cannons, you're not utilizing your Wraithknight to it's full potential. It'll kill most any unit in melee in the game. Only thing it struggles against are other MCs as they can smash attack it and generally have better WS/Initiative.

You know what's hilarious is all the people who are like "Psh, I'll just bring grav guns!" then their bikers get assaulted and two of them die, and they lob a bunch of krak grenades and do nothing. You can "hide" in CC with a wraithknight extremely easily.

I want to jump in on the ´stock wk is best´ bandwagon. However, I almost always play against low infantry mec lists, so the suncannon can´t do anything for me.

Some tips on using him. Try and give him cover (One can try and get a buff with farseer that gives +2 cover saves on top of that, or +4 inv saves, but random nature of psychic powers makes it so one can´t rely on getting it), and she can twin link his weapons with a farseer. If she uses the Iyanden supplement she can make the WK warlord, and pick the Iyanden warlord traits table which can give some really nice abilities to the wk (fnp or inv saves, for example). People can then chose to ignore him and not get slay the warlord, or they can shoot at a possibly even more tanky wk. Also with an Iyanden spiritseer close to her wk (6") she can give him the ability to run and shoot or shoot and run in the shooting phase (same for all wraith lords/guards), increasing his threat range.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Man, I really would be afraid of the board control a Wraithknight gives if it gave any. Maybe amateur 40kers are afraid of something big, but unless it's got the stats and hardware to back it up it's just there to take up space. I'm not afraid of two solid-slug rounds, but then I don't field MCs - I run Space Marines. You're getting one tank or two models, best case. Couldn't care less. Maybe for MC lists where they're in danger of something getting 6'd to wound, or someone who pours a huge margin of points into a tank - but keeping that out of 36'' of a Wraithknight isn't a project (assuming you have first turn). 48'' makes it a lascannon or brightlance, and I've danced out of their range as well. Sure, you can assault with your Wraithknight - and then I'll see it at the end of the game I guess, because it's staying put if anyone has anything to say about.

You're keeping your army 48" away from the WK? What army are you playing that you can afford to do that? And saying that only amateur 40k players are afraid of something big, while true, is also a cheap way out. Only amateur 40k players will use it as a big hammer to bash your head in, so that argument is moot.

The Knight gives better board control than anything in 40k to date. That's because it's threatening both in melee and at range, has mobility unmatched by non-flying MC, it's tough and if you don't kill it by T3, it's rampaging through your lines with impunity. You can CHOOSE what to assault with him and what to avoid. There are very few viable tarpits with a 12"+ move to keep up with him. There's just one thing in 40k he fears and that's TH/SS Termies. Fortunately, the rest of the Eldar laugh at those.

Things that give me pause, things like Necron Wraiths, Screamerstar, DPs, any Tyranid FMC, Riptides(especially Riptides), Broadsides, Tau Buffmander, SM ICs on a bike, anything multi-wound with T5 and below and high save is dead afraid of the Knight with two HWC. And that's not mentioning tanks.

Aforementioned options are not NEARLY as terrible as you'd like them to look. Prism has versatility, points cost, easily accessible cover saves on its side - as well as a more powerful main gun than the Knight courtesy of S9 LANCE and AP1. Warwalkers are infinitely cheaper and field triple the firepower of a Knight, with model count and six hull points to back up a low AV and open-topped status.

Warwalkers are 30 points cheaper than a Knight, so not "infinitely". Prisms are the least interesting HS choice, as far as I'm concerned. Their gun is excellent, when it works. It often doesn't, and I'm not spending that Guide on a single unreliable AT shot. In 5th, it'd be amazing, in 6th, when HP is the way vehicles are killed, it's mediocre at best. Any SM player who fields lascannons can tell you how "good" a single BS4 S9 shot is. Prism has added benefit of being Lance, AP1, but not worth 140 points, imo, especially since we're so spoiled for choice.

Now I'm not saying that a stock Knight is a bad thing. It's still a threatening model, and the Distortion rule and naturally high strength of the guns is cause for concern. I simply don't bat an eye at putting in those 60pts for what I perceive to be a huge boost in threat range the Knight can put out.

Small blasts amount to 2 hits(and that's generous) per blast. Assuming all hit and assuming the SL got 3 hits, you're looking at around 7-8 wounds on MEQ. After going-to-ground they lose 2 models. Against TEQ, you amount to 1 hit per blast, due to larger bases. Out in the open, that's 1-2 dead TEQ. You'll get slightly less with TWC and much more if it was a Paladin, for instance, due to ID.

Then there's a problem of confused roles. You want to shoot infantry, but want to assault tanks. That inadvertedly means that you'll either waste your melee capabilities(which are always more important than your ranged ones, no matter the choice of weapons) by staying at 36" and killing 2-3 models per turn, or you'll waste those precious 60 points by assaulting heavy tanks that the Suncannon can't hurt.

Finally, if there are no better targets on the board or if you really need a flyer dead, a Knight with HWC can double-up as AA. 2 Guided BS1 shots is similar to 1 BS4. It's like having a BS4 S10 AP2 Skyfire gun in your army, with a chance to become 2 S10 AP2 hits, if you're lucky. It isn't perfect, but I've shutdown my share of flyers with the Knight in a pinch.

You can do none of that if you PAY EXTRA to have LESS threat to FEWER things out there, you just happen to be slightly better at killing TEQ. That ain't no improvement from where I'm standing.

I agree about the prisms. I´ve been using them as my secondary heavy choice as single or a pair, and I think in the last 4 games they have done nothing. Even when I bother to twin link them, one shot just isn´t enough to take out the things it´s ment to take out. Even the blast, which bites through space marine armor, is too weak to reliably take out a squad. The only upside is that I can take about two of them for the price of one wk and their range makes them easy to keep out of harms way. None of that matters if they can´t take out their points worth in enemy units. I am trying to find a new heavy choice to take, but I haven´t decided what yet. I am still an inexperienced player, so I might be wrong, but I feel like the other HS options are either too expensive for what they do, or they are a little too situational.

I'd rate the HS choices in this order:

1. War Walkers

2. Wraithknight

3. Vaul's Wrath Battery

4. Night Spinner

5. Dark Reapers

6. Falcon

7. Fire Prism

8. Wraithlords

Now, none of these are bad, and some work better in certain lists, the top 4 however, pretty much work whenever, you can just put them in any kind of list, and they'll pay their points back.

War Walkers are especially tricky to use at first, so if you try them out, don't be dismayed if they keep dying on you.

EDIT: DISCLAIMER: This is from my experience, in my meta and it is only my opinion. Again, none of the choices here are bad and what works for you largerly depends on the kind of list you're playing and what is prevalent in your meta.

 Araenion wrote:
I'd rate the HS choices in this order:

1. War Walkers

2. Wraithknight

3. Vaul's Wrath Battery

4. Night Spinner

5. Dark Reapers

6. Falcon

7. Fire Prism

8. Wraithlords

Now, none of these are bad, and some work better in certain lists, the top 4 however, pretty much work whenever, you can just put them in any kind of list, and they'll pay their points back.

War Walkers are especially tricky to use at first, so if you try them out, don't be dismayed if they keep dying on you.

I wouldn't try doing this. There are so many different schools of though on Eldar heavies, we'll never agree. I would never put Wraithlords at the bottom or War Walkers at the top.

Point for point...Vaul's Wrath takes the cake in my book, but not every list accepts them well.

Very true, but Wraithlords simply don't work in some lists, in others, they're golden. There aren't as many schools of thoughts, as there are many ways to build Eldar, but I guess that's what you meant.

 Araenion wrote:
Very true, but Wraithlords simply don't work in some lists, in others, they're golden.

Indeed, I've never built a list where a Wraithknight was better than taking two Wraithlords.