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So here is the deal... I know that I will get a lil neg feedback for saying all this but I cannot sit by anymore. Besides DarkAvenger I have not seen to many people giving Beastmen any love whatsoever. The thing is, tournaments like the ETC have completely thrown BM aside when they feel like they need to give them additional !!300!! points to use over anyone else!! This is uncalled for! I have played my BM against the best of the cheese filled 8th ed lists and I have not lost. I know there is a mixed feeling about this and I hope that people like DarkA, myself and others can put them back on the map where they belong. Here is my main list that I pull out when people look at me silly when I tell them I play BM.

2500 Pts - Beastmen Roster

Beastlord (1#, 213 pts)
1 Beastlord, 213 pts (General; Primal Fury; Hand Weapon; Shield)
1 Blackened Plate
1 Talisman of Preservation

Great Bray-Shaman (1#, 284 pts)
1 Great Bray-Shaman, 284 pts (Primal Fury; Level 4 Upgrade; Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon)
1 Obsidian Lodestone
1 The Lore of Death

Wargor (1#, 210 pts)
1 Wargor (Battle Standard Bearer), 210 pts (Primal Fury; Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield; Battle Standard Bearer)
1 Gnarled Hide
1 The Beast Banner

Bray-Shaman (1#, 162 pts)
1 Bray-Shaman, 162 pts (Primal Fury; Level 2 Upgrade; Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon)
1 Shard of the Herdstone
1 The Lore of Beasts

Bray-Shaman (1#, 137 pts)
1 Bray-Shaman, 137 pts (Primal Fury; Level 2 Upgrade; Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon)
1 Dispel Scroll
1 The Lore of Shadow

Bray-Shaman (1#, 112 pts)
1 Bray-Shaman, 112 pts (Primal Fury; Level 2 Upgrade; Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon)
1 The Lore of Shadow

Gor Herd (45#, 385 pts)
44 Gor Herd, 385 pts (Ambush; Primal Fury; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon)
1 Foe-Render (Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon)

Gor Herd (24#, 217 pts)
23 Gor Herd, 217 pts (Ambush; Primal Fury; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon)
1 Foe-Render (Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon)

Gor Herd (15#, 120 pts)
15 Gor Herd, 120 pts (Ambush; Primal Fury; Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon)

Razorgor Herd (1#, 55 pts)

Razorgor Herd (1#, 55 pts)

Ghorgon (1#, 275 pts)

Ghorgon (1#, 275 pts)

Feedback is of course welcome!!!

Maybe you can give us the low down on your general strategy, deployment, regular opponents, etc.

Your list is a different combination of elements I see from Beastmen players, but is overall very familiar.

As a person with a soft spot for the Beasties, I definitely wish they were a more competitive army, have not dusted them off in too long a time myself!

Awesome!!!

For my strategy, it very much so depends on the opponent. Lets roll through an army that you would play against:

Elves- ASF vs. non-existent armor is a sentence for death! How is mitigate that is by Shadow. If I can cancel your re-rolls you will have to fall back on your strength to push wounds on me.... and S3 vs T4(maybe T5) will fail everytime. With things like Great Weapon Elves, if I drop your initiative I will hit you first with S4(maybe S5) with my re-rolls for hatred, I will lower the amount I am getting hit in return.

For me to control the fate of my army, I MUST control my magic phase. The Herdstone is what does that for me. Lv4 Death, 2 Lv2 Shadows, and a Lv2 Beast give me pretty much every spell I could ever want for controlling my Phase. If I put so many "remains in play" hexes on you for dirt cheap in my phase, you must run the risk of dispelling them in your phase or having my hammer hit you in my next phase. Miasma is possibly the most annoying spell on earth, as is Withering and enfeebling foe. Doom and Darkness put on a Vampire Counts general will HAVE to be dispelled on their phase or they run the risk of me hitting him in the following phases with 5 or 6 dicing Spirit Leach and ending half your army.

As for movement: The Movement in my army AGAIN depends on the army that I am playing against. If I am playing against lets say, WoC which has little to no shooting. I have to fall back on my movement and harassment to control when and where I take a charge. With a army movement of at least 5 and having my two Razors re-directors and my two Gorgons at movement 7 I can kite and pull out anyone foolish enough to chase them. Or if they ignore them, I set them up for a counter rear charge. I NEVER use Miasma for movement reduction. I believe that it is a waste because if they are close enough to risk a charge they can afford to charge off of dice alone.

You might notice that I do have one decent Hammer unit. That 45 Gor with a decent amount of Char might look like a death trap waiting to happen, but they actually have a decent amount of protection. 4+ ward to flaming attacks, 4+ ward to Magic attacks, base T4 but can be mitigated by boosting to T5 or by reducing opponents range armies BS by spells that lets me "get there".

I believe that you have hit it right on the head though Perv(if that is ok to call you).... ehhhh lets go with Herm instead. There are a few things in this book that might be a MUST, but overall every book in 8th ED has those things so why not take them!! It still falls down to how composed you are when you are up a "wall" in a battle. The bottom line is that, while it is not perfect, it is FAR from needing a pitty boost in turneys in the form of 300 points!!!

And sorry for the rabble and semi wall of texts... I am not that great at writing my complete thoughts.

Cheers

Looking at your list you don't have as much chaff as I am used to seeing in Beasts lists, which is why I asked for your break down.

You have ONE combat block, as you say, two smaller gor blocks (do you ambush them or use them as stall tactics?), and the two ghorgons.

Usually I like to see a TON of chaff in a beasts list (war hounds, razor gors, harpies, chariots, etc.) to stall and redirect the enemy.

I love that you have two ghorgons as I have always loved them and even like the model GW makes for them, but they are very expensive and offer little protection for themselves.

Have you not found them dying to small arms fire and artillery alike? Against your army I would chaff and flee from the frenzied monsters and combo charge your only block.

In your own example, I look at WoC as being a huge problem for this list, especially with the "current meta cheese lists." Chimera in the back field will shred your dancing shamans/ herd stone set up, the DP can probably lock up your death star solo, but will have reinforcements from Skull Crushers, halberd warriors, and chariots regardless.

Totally great that you are finding success with Beastmen though! I still think they NEED an FAQ with some changes to points costs/ mechanics to pull ahead as a formidable army.

I understand what you are saying, I really do. Afterall I play Beastmen as well. However to say that you have taken on cheese lists and come out on to CONSISTANTLY really makes me wonder what you consider as a cheese list and whether you are tracking all your games. Now winning with Beastmen can be done however I HIGHLY doubt you could take that list to a GT and come away above middle of the pack.

This is not an intent to question you generalism but it is to question how you feel we stack up to par with the newer books. Hell even some of the older ones can give us trouble mainly due to some builds.

You have no reliable way to deal with regen, the other Gor herds are at ST3 wich is rather lackluster. You might roll double ones for magic and be stuck with 4 or 5 dice when you are depending on magic to pull the weight on this list because you have only one reliable combat block. Nothing there to draw heat from the Ghorgons and no chalice to midigate at least on shooting phase.

Honestly I would recommend you go to a GT or two and then come back and tell us how Beastmen stack up.

By the way Beastmen are my ONLY army and I do go to GT's have a decent win rate and believe I can hold my own against any list. But would not be naive enough to think our book is on par with any book except probably TK, WE and Bretts...

Beastmen are a great, great army. You must control your magic phase buffing your men while debuffing theirs. And you absolutely must pick your fights wisely.

I know that there is nothing i can really say to give you a good idea of the tests that i have put the BMs through. We have a really strong Fantasy store. We have a guy that runs a 40+ White Lion unit with the BotWd and the Everqueen along with 2 Frost Birds. We have a few WoC players running 2 Chimeras with a kitted DP. Orges with gutstars and 3 stonehorns. There is also a guy with one of the most di ck nurgle beast demon lists that there is. We also have one of the best Vamp players you will ever see. This guy has about 130+ Skellies in as many units with 3 VansDance and 6 screams(3 of which are undead birds) and 2 units of 5 Etheral Horses. So when i say that we have all tested each other and tried to make each army the best it can be, you can take my word for it.

As for some of the units in the book. It is my belief that most things are just not worth the points. Chariots are one of them: you can not use them as chaff because you cannot march. And unless you have a couple hit the same target at the SAME time, there is no way you will break anything. I find that Razorgors are FANTASTIC!! my three that i have do wonders for me! march 14" can put them into the best of spots for counter rear charges or kiting units away.

Ghorgons..... 275 points of hurt. Period. Yes they CAN die to cannons. Yes they CAN die to semi small arms fire. BUT people should be scared of them when played properly. The way that i run mine are probably differant than other people might run them. I do not worry about them being frenzy. LD10 is relieable enough to restrain charging. If i am running against cannon armies, i NEVER present the full 100mm of base to the cannons. I will angle them so they have a smaller chance of getting a hit on them. Ghorgons main role for me are 3 things. 1) if opportunity presents itself, i use him as a bullet to throw all 7 attacks at a lv4 wizard or bsb if it matters. 2) if people want to chaff me to slow me down, i welcome that... please give me easy combat res to grow my attacks up ( i have gotten one up to 13 swings one time) 3) counter charge, I will never charge them into combat alone. I will, if anything, take a charge to my main block and then counter charge with the Ghorgons to sweep up.

I love this though, I want to get to the bottom and get EVERYONES opinion. Let use help to change how they are viewed. As for the GT scene, i will be taking them to the Masters qualifier in MD in late march. Though i am really thinking i will not take the extra 300 points they are giving out to BMs.

No Bestigors no party. Drop 1 Ghorgon maybe some gors or even 1 Shaman and take 38+ Bestigors.

This list is remarcably similar to mine! Except drop the second gor block and a ghorgon, and get a unit of 30 best gor with the standard of discipline.

They are really amazing for a bunker. And they can fight knights. and stuff.

I'd try and fit the stubborn crown on the beastlord, and get more chaff in the list.

The beastmen book is not weak. It's just limited. Lots o chaff is the way forward.

How do you think my list would do against yours? Mine is the 2500pt empire list by me (duh).

Hey Arbiter, i think i might have played against you in 40k at NOVA this last year. ---- I like your Empire list, but if i was staring at it from across the table, there would be a few things i would game plan out. As Follows:

1) I would death out your Lv4 first then your Warrior Priest. They are in no way protected and would fall with only me using a couple dice to do so. If they are going in the 26 man block with all of your other heroes and lords then i would def say put some MR in it.
2) What little range you have in the list is easily ignorable. You would have to come to me to do any damage and I know that so i would not at all rush you!
3) Even if you hit me on the charge with your 26 man block, you are only hitting on 4s. If i Miasma your knights (of which i have 2 castings) I might get you down to needing 5s to hit me. And of which, when you do hit me, you are only S5 (well I think Inner Circle are S4 base right? If that's the case then that would be the target of more magic.) on the charge so you might kill a few, but i will def hold, and then have a couple counter charges coming in the following turn. But a main thing that would most likely happen is that I would try to get a charge off with one of my T5 boars and tie you up for a turn.

It was touched on before, but I believe that the BM books strength really comes from ACTUAL stategy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hey DarkAvenger, I knew we could draw you in The Ghorgons in the list are my soft spot. I do have a couple other list with 120+ Gors and 30 Bestis but this is my softy list. My reasoning behind them was already covered, but def do understand theirs limits. As for the CoC, again, that is usually a must, but did not put it in this one. Blackened Plate, Talis of Pro, and CoC is 100 points.

I would really be curious to see how will your list compete against a missile heavy dwarf list.

KeyserSoze wrote:
No Bestigors no party. Drop 1 Ghorgon maybe some gors or even 1 Shaman and take 38+ Bestigors.

Shocked as well to see no bestigors, they really are a brilliant unit that regularly tears my face off

- Salvage

Someone finally says something about Dwarfs!!! Lol we have a couple people starting to put lists together. And that is what I am scared of. We have a guy that is planning to run 6 gyros and 2 bombers!!!! WTF!! Lol

 Padelis117 wrote:
I would really be curious to see how will your list compete against a missile heavy dwarf list.

This list has the same problems as the rest of the infantry lists do. The templates.

@Pirate,

Thanks for looking, as for being at NOVA I wasn't there (i'm 17)
i'm hoping to start actual fantasy playing (I played some with the empire 5th ed codex a long time ago) but as to this edition I love the idea of running 50 mounted models with a hero hammer for the big block, if I could get off pans pelt and savage beast of horrors then the front five characters would be insane at T7 S7 and min of A5 as well as all having 1+ AS and some good Inv as for MS, I though about taking some but don't know where to free points up, I could swap hellblaster and engineer for another cannon and MS amulet?

Regardless than you and good luck!

Lol ah ok. There is another guy running around here with a similar name, but I thought he was from England. Confused me for a few seconds. As for the game, beasts as a lore will boost the hell out of your cav, but like I said, I would pour quite a bit into killing out your Lv4. Magic Resist is a must in my mind.

Please continue and talk it up though!! That is why I actually stopped snooping and posted something. I want to know what I am missing and want to be able to talk through people's ideas. I have said already that the DC area has a pretty fantastic fantasy array, but we cannot possibly cover everything!

I'm always sad to see Beastmen lists without the hitback gorebull. I know he's a bit of a one-trick pony, but man is it fun to watch him wade through an entire unit and come out the other side, unharmed and even angrier.

That said, I'll agree with others that your list is lacking in chaff. The game is won or lost in the movement phase, and without much shooting or chaff you're going to have trouble with board control. For instance, imagine what you're going to do against a WE cauldron star. It'll chew through pretty much anything you have, and you really don't have anything to stop or even redirect it.

I know it has been said that the list I have posted is "chaff" lacking. I think that the 2 boars that I have used the last year have proven their worth time and time again. To much chaff is a blatant waste of points. As for the WE "star", again I will redirect you to what I said before. If I can take away your rerolls(which I believe that I have a decent chance at [ASF] I don't remember off the top if they have hatred. Don't think so but could be wrong) I can make you have to use your strength to wound which is not as reliable at auto wounding with posion re-rolling misses. We only have one DE player in our specific group. Can you point me to a actual DE power list at 24 25 or 2800 point level so I can get him to run it? I would really like to see!!

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
That said, I'll agree with others that your list is lacking in chaff. The game is won or lost in the movement phase, and without much shooting or chaff you're going to have trouble with board control. For instance, imagine what you're going to do against a WE cauldron star. It'll chew through pretty much anything you have, and you really don't have anything to stop or even redirect it.

The WE/Cauldron star is the most pointless unit ever. It's a low strength that is relying on an IF mindrazor to do anything. Especially in a meta full of T4+ or high armour stuff.

Sure, you get a lot of attacks, but you're still S3. And how the beastmen army deals with the unit is called Wildform. Or multiples.

I disagree with above, I fight the WE star and they will shred units with little to no AS, due to their insane attacks, as empire I can bog them down easily with reiks knights run them 1 x 5 and sit there the whole game, for BM they should be able to chew threw the witch elves with impact hits because there armour is non existent.

Also as you say your magic will murder my characters looking through the numbers, you on average get 7 dice to cast (+1 for channel once every 2 turns) and I get 3 (+1 every 3 turns) you will have to try to IF your death magic for it to go through, also all my Characters (except the knight champion) has a minimum of 5+ wardsave and in CC the knights alone getting 15 S6 hits with re rolls (hatred) and 2s (or 3s due to wildform) to wound which is kills, not including the horses attacks (which could help because BM have no armour) I think it could crumble your block of BM due to combat res.

You are not looking at what the Herdstone does. I am sorry, but even if I roll double ones for winds, I will have 3 wizards around it and will end up with dice being 5 to 1 before channel. 5 dice is more than enough to get 2 or 3 spells off.

Forgive me what does the heardstone do (I honestly don't know)? Also swapped the priests helm to MS (3) in addition if I can get his 5+ unit wardsave giving them a 2+ ward vs magic (is this right?).

The 5+ he gives is for combat alone if I am not mistaken. The MR3 however will give everyone in the unit a 4+ ward to magic spells. But moving on.... The Herdstone is a piece of terrain placed during deployment that gives me a power die for every wizard within 6" of it. So if I have 3 of my Shams chillin out next to it and during my magic phase I roll a 4 and 3 for winds. Right off the bat I have 10 and you have 4 dice, then we channel.

 Arbiter wrote:
I disagree with above, I fight the WE star and they will shred units with little to no AS, due to their insane attacks, as empire I can bog them down easily with reiks knights run them 1 x 5 and sit there the whole game, for BM they should be able to chew threw the witch elves with impact hits because there armour is non existent.

Also as you say your magic will murder my characters looking through the numbers, you on average get 7 dice to cast (+1 for channel once every 2 turns) and I get 3 (+1 every 3 turns) you will have to try to IF your death magic for it to go through, also all my Characters (except the knight champion) has a minimum of 5+ wardsave and in CC the knights alone getting 15 S6 hits with re rolls (hatred) and 2s (or 3s due to wildform) to wound which is kills, not including the horses attacks (which could help because BM have no armour) I think it could crumble your block of BM due to combat res.

So an army that has witches wounding on a 5+ at a minimum isn't that great against it? 1 wildform means that your uber unit of death wounds on 6s. So you're relying solely on poisoned attacks.

Armour doesn't matter in this case. You're relying on magic to do the damage you need to. As without it, the gor break the witches. Without the shadow magic and wildform, they get 10 wounds through. The gor get 11 back through to you. Without double 1-ing their Primal Frenzy. This results in the gor winning.

On a side note, if I've made any mistakes, it's because it's late and I'm tired.

thedarkavenger wrote:

 Arbiter wrote:
I disagree with above, I fight the WE star and they will shred units with little to no AS, due to their insane attacks, as empire I can bog them down easily with reiks knights run them 1 x 5 and sit there the whole game, for BM they should be able to chew threw the witch elves with impact hits because there armour is non existent.

Also as you say your magic will murder my characters looking through the numbers, you on average get 7 dice to cast (+1 for channel once every 2 turns) and I get 3 (+1 every 3 turns) you will have to try to IF your death magic for it to go through, also all my Characters (except the knight champion) has a minimum of 5+ wardsave and in CC the knights alone getting 15 S6 hits with re rolls (hatred) and 2s (or 3s due to wildform) to wound which is kills, not including the horses attacks (which could help because BM have no armour) I think it could crumble your block of BM due to combat res.

So an army that has witches wounding on a 5+ at a minimum isn't that great against it? 1 wildform means that your uber unit of death wounds on 6s. So you're relying solely on poisoned attacks.

Armour doesn't matter in this case. You're relying on magic to do the damage you need to. As without it, the gor break the witches. Without the shadow magic and wildform, they get 10 wounds through. The gor get 11 back through to you. Without double 1-ing their Primal Frenzy. This results in the gor winning.

On a side note, if I've made any mistakes, it's because it's late and I'm tired.

It might just be a little pointless to argue that.... That is what I am trying to get across. It is a straight up disrespect for the army as a whole! on a side note, I will be PM'in you to discuss some things further!

Armour doesn't matter in this case. You're relying on magic to do the damage you need to. As without it, the gor break the witches. Without the shadow magic and wildform, they get 10 wounds through. The gor get 11 back through to you. Without double 1-ing their Primal Frenzy. This results in the gor winning.

? 30 Witch Elves is 60 attacks 15 poison plus another 30 hits wounding on 5s is another 16.67 giving a total of 31.67 wounds. That's a lot more that 10! Plus whatever the Cauldron does (which has S5 impact hits). Perhaps you forgot poison and rerolls? Even with Wildform up they do 24.167 wounds to you.

GETTING OFF TOPIC Again, I will ask.... I have not seen this crazy witch list. If someone could be so kind as to send me (PM me) a list my buddy can play against me so I can check it out.

Moving on, besides DE, anyone else have something that is a common build that I can try out or test up against?

 Puddle_Pirate wrote:
You are not looking at what the Herdstone does. I am sorry, but even if I roll double ones for winds, I will have 3 wizards around it and will end up with dice being 5 to 1 before channel. 5 dice is more than enough to get 2 or 3 spells off.

You might want to double check that if you are running the Herdstone at the FOWL GT. ETC rules cap you at +2 dice INCLUDING channels which is why I am not running it. Also D&D does not affect for the LD snipe, again why I will not be running death at FOWL.

Either way looking forward to seeing you there gonna be a challenge for best BM player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also you are paying 4 points to make your BSB more vulnerable. 4 attacks with a 3+ AS is NOT better than 3 attacks with a 2+, 6++

Ahh, that makes sense now with the herdstone, doesn't that make your wizards shooting fodder though, like a unit of ambushes/vanguard and they can get wiped which makes your magic faze go away (if i'm wrong correct my logic please).

On topic with the witch elves it involves the couldron of blood about 30 witch elves (and/or corsairs) with a hag, and supreme sorceress they get double frenzy (so A2 +1 (2ccw) +2 double frenzy) so they shred anything with low T and low AS and even high T models get killed by sheer amounts of poisoned wounds.

Ps. I think you got confused about the 5+ wardsave adding with the MR giving a 2+ ward vs magic attacks (I know the priests pray is CC only but I mean on the heroes) sorry if its confusing.