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It's no secret: no matter how you slice it, Chaos Space Marine units suck. This gives me a sad. I hate paying the lord tax for cult troops even if lords are good. I want to use interesting HQs without having to take crappy troops or cultists. So here we go.

UNIT: Chaos Space Marines 55 Points

4 Chaos Space Marines WS4 BS4 STR4 T4 W1 I4 A2 LD8
1 Aspiring Champion WS4 BS4 STR4 T4 W1 I4 A3 LD9

Wargear: Power Armor, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon (Champion only), Frag and Krak Grenades

Special Rules: Consuming Ego (Champion Only), Opportunist's Resolve
• Consuming Ego - If the Aspiring Champion does not accept an issued challenge and no other model in his unit is eligible to accept the challenge, the unit loses the Opportunist's Resolve special rule until your next player turn.
• Opportunist's Resolve - As long as the Aspiring Champion is alive, the unit is Fearless. When the Aspiring Champion dies, all Chaos Space Marines in the unit gain +2 LD for the rest of the game.

Options:
May add up to fifteen Chaos Space Marines - 11 pts/model
Any Chaos Space Marine may take a Close Combat Weapon - 1 pt/model, or replace his Boltgun with a Close Combat Weapon - free
Up to two Chaos Space Marines may replace their Bolt Pistols with Plasma Pistols - 5 pts each
Additionally:
Up to two Chaos Space Marines may replace their Boltguns with: Flamer - 5 pts each/Heavy Bolter - 5 pts each/Plasma Gun - 10 pts each/Melta Gun - 8 pts each/Plasma Cannon - 15 pts each

The Aspiring Champion may take items from the Melee Weapons and/or Range Weapons sections of the wargear list.
The Aspiring Champion may take Gift of Mutation - 5 pts, and/or Aura of Dark Glory - 10 pts
The Aspiring Champion may take Melta Bombs - 5pts

The unit may purchase one of the following Marks of Chaos: Mark of Khorne - 1 pts/model, Mark of Tzeetch - 1pts/model, Mark of Nurgle - 2pts/model, Mark of Slaanesh - 2pts/model
The unit may purchase one of the following Chaos Icons: Wrath - 15pts/Flame - 5pts/Despair - 5pts/Excess - 30pts
The unit make take the Hatred (Space Marines) special rule - 1pt/model
The unit may take a Chaos Rhino as a Dedicated Transport

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

My rational: Generally there are points decreases across the board because MEQ suck due to their points costs from the models to their upgrades. Chaos Space Marines simply do not put out enough damage compared to other units at similar points, and they aren't any more survivable most of the time either. I gave them an additional attack because they are pretty much a laughing stock in CC, and the decreased costs of Marks of Chaos help with this as well. The Consuming Ego and Opportunist's Resolve special rules are meant to differentiate CSM from loyalists and give them a little flavor of their own, while mitigating pointless challenges and the prevalence of scaredy cat marines that make no sense fluffwise. Also, these marines didn't drop their Plasma Cannons as soon as the Horus Heresy ended.

I've had plenty of success with CSM units with 2x Melta/Plasma. I'm not sure if these changes are truly necessary.

These are way too cheap, man. Cheaper than a Stormtrooper, with base 2 attacks, 13 points per model for Mark of Nurgle? I see some of the logic but I don't think this is the way to do it. This will only further reinforce Nurgle themed armies at the expense of the other gods.

What they really need is some twisted alternative to Chapter Tactics and ATSKNF, that's the best way to even them out with marines honestly.

I think 12points per model and Legion tactics would work better, 11 points is to cheap.

12 points is what Battle Sisters are costed at. WS3, S3, T3, I3. All they really have over CSM are is a 6++ and a one use Act of Faith.

 J3f wrote:
12 points is what Battle Sisters are costed at. WS3, S3, T3, I3. All they really have over CSM are is a 6++ and a one use Act of Faith.

And don't forget, a cannoness is also the same as a chaos lord, only with str 3 and T3.
Cool chapter/legion tactics would go a long way.

I would just give them Chaos Marks for free, no legion tactics this isn't 30k. Keep them at 13 points same statline.

...Eleven points per model for two base Attacks on a Marine statline? What? I'm also exceedingly confused as to the upgrade weapons you've presented here; heavy bolter or plasma cannon as the only heavy weapon options, two grossly underpriced plaspistols in addition to two special/heavy weapons means you're permitting 100% upgrade weapon density on five-man squads in a Troops unit not to mention dropping a fair bit of the versatility in the unit build.

 Valkyrie wrote:
I've had plenty of success with CSM units with 2x Melta/Plasma. I'm not sure if these changes are truly necessary.

Considering that CSM are currently Orkz as far as power level, except our Heldrake monobuild, I'd say it's definitely necessary. I'm talking about even casual games, which are a struggle for me to win if I don't take at least one turkey. Yeah yeah, you can say that I'm a crappy player, but the numbers don't lie. CSM is a lower "tier" codex, as much as I hate to use that term.


Also, regarding everyone saying that what I have presented is too cheap, have you seen Tau lately? Or Eldar? Or even the new Space Marines? My point is, CSM are terrible because they are overcosted. When you compare CSM with bottom of the barrel armies like SoB then yes, my suggested points values are a bit of a steal, but CSM don't exist in a vaccuum. Orkz and SoB need an update as well. Orkz will get one soon as far as I know, but that still doesn't make the crappery of CSM any less relevant.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...Eleven points per model for two base Attacks on a Marine statline? What? I'm also exceedingly confused as to the upgrade weapons you've presented here; heavy bolter or plasma cannon as the only heavy weapon options, two grossly underpriced plaspistols in addition to two special/heavy weapons means you're permitting 100% upgrade weapon density on five-man squads in a Troops unit not to mention dropping a fair bit of the versatility in the unit build.

I am permitting 100% upgrade weapon density, but only for plasma which is pretty dangerous for a five man squad. I think we can all agree that plasma pistol are ridiculously overcosted. The heavy weapon options are really a bit of an afterthought anyway, because who actually takes heavy weapons on CSM troops? I'm a bit new blah blah blah, but I've never seen a CSM unit with a single autocannon/lascannon etc used effectively. If you want to argue that they should also have the option for dual autocannons/lascannons and whatnot, I just don't think it's necessary because looking at the numbers it's a stupid choice to take. You could conceivably build a list that focuses all your troops taking 2 heavy weapons each, but meh, that's outside the scope of this thread.

 ZultanQ wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...Eleven points per model for two base Attacks on a Marine statline? What? I'm also exceedingly confused as to the upgrade weapons you've presented here; heavy bolter or plasma cannon as the only heavy weapon options, two grossly underpriced plaspistols in addition to two special/heavy weapons means you're permitting 100% upgrade weapon density on five-man squads in a Troops unit not to mention dropping a fair bit of the versatility in the unit build.

I am permitting 100% upgrade weapon density, but only for plasma which is pretty dangerous for a five man squad. I think we can all agree that plasma pistol are ridiculously overcosted. The heavy weapon options are really a bit of an afterthought anyway, because who actually takes heavy weapons on CSM troops? I'm a bit new blah blah blah, but I've never seen a CSM unit with a single autocannon/lascannon etc used effectively. If you want to argue that they should also have the option for dual autocannons/lascannons and whatnot, I just don't think it's necessary because looking at the numbers it's a stupid choice to take. You could conceivably build a list that focuses all your troops taking 2 heavy weapons each, but meh, that's outside the scope of this thread.

So why do the heavy bolters and the plasma cannons (which, I may add, CSM have never been able to take) remain? You're taking away an option for because you've never seen it used well but you're leaving a part of that option and expanding on it because it's stupid? I'm not following your logic.

100% heavy weapon density on Troops is weird. Four upgrade weapons in a Troops unit is weird and bizarre and not replicable by any other Troops unit that's not an Elites unit moved to Troops by GW being silly. It makes very little sense from a conceptual standpoint, Gets Hot! isn't especially dangerous in this day and age since armour saves are permitted in 6e, and throwing everything else aside I don't give a rat's ass if they've got a chance to blow themselves up you've handed me six plasma shots on five Marine bodies in Troops for 85 points. I can't get the five bodies I would need to put four upgrade weapons on the unit in most army lists in an Elites choice for that pricepoint.

I suggest being new you go and read through as much existing rules material as you can, try to understand why lists are built the way they are before throwing out fundamental design principles and slashing prices by two thirds. One other note: Design to the middle, don't design to win. Anyone with a keyboard can say "All my Tactical Marines have plasma guns at five points now" or "My Incubi can assault out of Raiders the turn they land from Deep Strike and don't scatter besides", but you might as well be writing bad fanfiction for all the playability you'll get out of the rules.

 J3f wrote:
I would just give them Chaos Marks for free, no legion tactics this isn't 30k. Keep them at 13 points same statline.

Iron Warriors, Death Guard, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion and Black Legion would beg to differ.
Legion tactics are still more than valid considering that even the broken legions have warbands bigger than SM chapters.

Also, its an easy and fluffy fix.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 J3f wrote:
I would just give them Chaos Marks for free, no legion tactics this isn't 30k. Keep them at 13 points same statline.

Iron Warriors, Death Guard, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion and Black Legion would beg to differ.
Legion tactics are still more than valid considering that even the broken legions have warbands bigger than SM chapters.

Also, its an easy and fluffy fix.

It just doesn't fit though. The rest of the Codex is divided by Chaos God.

 ZultanQ wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
I've had plenty of success with CSM units with 2x Melta/Plasma. I'm not sure if these changes are truly necessary.

Considering that CSM are currently Orkz as far as power level, except our Heldrake monobuild, I'd say it's definitely necessary. I'm talking about even casual games, which are a struggle for me to win if I don't take at least one turkey. Yeah yeah, you can say that I'm a crappy player, but the numbers don't lie. CSM is a lower "tier" codex, as much as I hate to use that term.

True, numbers don't lie, so when I point out that CSM was part of the winning list in Adepticon (allied and with Heldrake, sure, but still there) that ought to mean something, right?

13 PPM T5 A2 (+1) Troops would go a far way to put the fear of CC back in the game, though, I'll grant you that. My main complaint would be that CSM with MoK would be getting 5 attacks on the charge at 12 PPM whereas Crusader Squads get 3 for 14 PPM, but then again Crusader Squads aren't really that good to begin with, so I suppose it's not fair to keep CSM shackled to their meh-tastic level.

If you're making Chaos Space Marines this cheap, all other troop choices need their prices re-evaluated.

I manage to make regular csm useful now. Yep, they're not the best you can get but if you can keep them away from ap2-3 and massed wounds they're quite nice. And don't tell me that your enemie's armies consist wholly of riptides and wave serpents it's more a problem of attitude to games than csm codex.

CSM are doing good in rhinos. 2 special weapons + combi is good. And they're not bad as a retinue to HQ in a landraider. Though, CSM feel a bit lacking compared to up-to date stuff that loyalists get like chapter tactics and the loss of ATSKNF and combat-squading is huge. But what i'd do is just a 1 point reduction to 12 ppm. That's it. 2 points cheaper than regular marines, ability to take ccw and an extra special weapon will be great allready.

 ZultanQ wrote:
It's no secret: no matter how you slice it, Chaos Space Marine units suck. This gives me a sad. I hate paying the lord tax for cult troops even if lords are good. I want to use interesting HQs without having to take crappy troops or cultists. So here we go.


My rational: Generally there are points decreases across the board because MEQ suck due to their points costs from the models to their upgrades. Chaos Space Marines simply do not put out enough damage compared to other units at similar points, and they aren't any more survivable most of the time either. I gave them an additional attack because they are pretty much a laughing stock in CC, and the decreased costs of Marks of Chaos help with this as well. The Consuming Ego and Opportunist's Resolve special rules are meant to differentiate CSM from loyalists and give them a little flavor of their own, while mitigating pointless challenges and the prevalence of scaredy cat marines that make no sense fluffwise. Also, these marines didn't drop their Plasma Cannons as soon as the Horus Heresy ended.

Signifigantly too powerful.
12-13points is fair for the current stat line, especilly if they get fearless for free. The +1 attack is over the top
The 5 point plasma pistols are over the top
Many of the upgrades are over the top

CSM need some buffs, their codex is trash, but this takes them from rather uncompetitive to flat broken OP.

 Exergy wrote:


Signifigantly too powerful.
12-13points is fair for the current stat line, especilly if they get fearless for free. The +1 attack is over the top

Probably not too powerful TBH. They'd still lack a good delivery system into CC, and Fearless means you can't go to ground.

 Exergy wrote:

The 5 point plasma pistols are over the top

No they're not. There's no one taking them these days becasue 15 PPM for a plasma pistol is insane.

 Exergy wrote:

Many of the upgrades are over the top

Such as?

 Exergy wrote:


CSM need some buffs, their codex is trash, but this takes them from rather uncompetitive to flat broken OP.

They'd still be MEQ defensively though. How does any of this (other than the Mark of Nurgle) allow them to not die like flies in 6th edition's cover-ignoring super-shooty meta?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Exergy wrote:


Signifigantly too powerful.
12-13points is fair for the current stat line, especilly if they get fearless for free. The +1 attack is over the top

Probably not too powerful TBH. They'd still lack a good delivery system into CC, and Fearless means you can't go to ground.

They dont need a good delivery system at that price.
For 11 points a model, you horde them. Take 100 and no one can kill them all before they get into CC.
Huron or Ahriman can infiltrate 60 of them.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

The 5 point plasma pistols are over the top

No they're not. There's no one taking them these days becasue 15 PPM for a plasma pistol is insane.

 Exergy wrote:

Many of the upgrades are over the top

Such as?


Heavy Bolter - 5 pts each/Plasma Gun - 10 pts each/Melta Gun - 8 pts each/Plasma Cannon - 15 pts each

Why do they pay less than every unit in the game for these upgrades.

Perhaps 15ppm is too much for a plasma pistol, but that is what every other model pays. 5 points, and i think everyone would take them.

They were 5 PPM in the old BT Codex and people still didn't take them, because they're short-ranged and unreliable.

"Everyone else pays this much!" isn't much of an argument when everyone's already overpaying.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 ZultanQ wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...Eleven points per model for two base Attacks on a Marine statline? What? I'm also exceedingly confused as to the upgrade weapons you've presented here; heavy bolter or plasma cannon as the only heavy weapon options, two grossly underpriced plaspistols in addition to two special/heavy weapons means you're permitting 100% upgrade weapon density on five-man squads in a Troops unit not to mention dropping a fair bit of the versatility in the unit build.

I am permitting 100% upgrade weapon density, but only for plasma which is pretty dangerous for a five man squad. I think we can all agree that plasma pistol are ridiculously overcosted. The heavy weapon options are really a bit of an afterthought anyway, because who actually takes heavy weapons on CSM troops? I'm a bit new blah blah blah, but I've never seen a CSM unit with a single autocannon/lascannon etc used effectively. If you want to argue that they should also have the option for dual autocannons/lascannons and whatnot, I just don't think it's necessary because looking at the numbers it's a stupid choice to take. You could conceivably build a list that focuses all your troops taking 2 heavy weapons each, but meh, that's outside the scope of this thread.

So why do the heavy bolters and the plasma cannons (which, I may add, CSM have never been able to take) remain? You're taking away an option for because you've never seen it used well but you're leaving a part of that option and expanding on it because it's stupid? I'm not following your logic.

100% heavy weapon density on Troops is weird. Four upgrade weapons in a Troops unit is weird and bizarre and not replicable by any other Troops unit that's not an Elites unit moved to Troops by GW being silly. It makes very little sense from a conceptual standpoint, Gets Hot! isn't especially dangerous in this day and age since armour saves are permitted in 6e, and throwing everything else aside I don't give a rat's ass if they've got a chance to blow themselves up you've handed me six plasma shots on five Marine bodies in Troops for 85 points. I can't get the five bodies I would need to put four upgrade weapons on the unit in most army lists in an Elites choice for that pricepoint.

I suggest being new you go and read through as much existing rules material as you can, try to understand why lists are built the way they are before throwing out fundamental design principles and slashing prices by two thirds. One other note: Design to the middle, don't design to win. Anyone with a keyboard can say "All my Tactical Marines have plasma guns at five points now" or "My Incubi can assault out of Raiders the turn they land from Deep Strike and don't scatter besides", but you might as well be writing bad fanfiction for all the playability you'll get out of the rules.

CSM troops can most definitely take heavy bolters in the current codex. The plasma cannons are there to represent the fact that during the Horus Heresy, plasma was everywhere and old legions should still have an abundance of plasma. Giving loyalists plasma cannons but not traitors, who actually used them more, makes no sense. And "they shouldn't have weapon density because nobody else does" is not an argument, because why does it matter? Should all troops be the same? Would you honestly crap your pants if somebody was fielding 5 man squads of CSM with say two plasma pistols, two plasma guns, and a combi-plasma or pistol on the champ? Dangerous? Yes. Overpowered? No, it just means they don't suck in a meta of "lol MEQ, enjoy not having armor saves or when you do they don't even matter".

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ZultanQ wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
I've had plenty of success with CSM units with 2x Melta/Plasma. I'm not sure if these changes are truly necessary.

Considering that CSM are currently Orkz as far as power level, except our Heldrake monobuild, I'd say it's definitely necessary. I'm talking about even casual games, which are a struggle for me to win if I don't take at least one turkey. Yeah yeah, you can say that I'm a crappy player, but the numbers don't lie. CSM is a lower "tier" codex, as much as I hate to use that term.

True, numbers don't lie, so when I point out that CSM was part of the winning list in Adepticon (allied and with Heldrake, sure, but still there) that ought to mean something, right?

13 PPM T5 A2 (+1) Troops would go a far way to put the fear of CC back in the game, though, I'll grant you that. My main complaint would be that CSM with MoK would be getting 5 attacks on the charge at 12 PPM whereas Crusader Squads get 3 for 14 PPM, but then again Crusader Squads aren't really that good to begin with, so I suppose it's not fair to keep CSM shackled to their meh-tastic level.

The Heldrake being good doesn't make CSM troops good, who are the topic of this thread. I don't even have to look up that list to know that the allied troops weren't a CSM unit. And yeah, even at my suggested points, CSM still wouldn't be uber dangerous in assault, more like middling, which is fine because they're not dedicated assault troops.

11pts......wtf and since when have we been underpowered?

Granted we are no loyalist but our stuff is better than Thiers and often cheaper. Terminators in csm remain viable due to low costs.

Plus you are forgetting csm horde mode. We can take 20 as a unit and hand them over to a scorcerer to buff. Preferably with divination blessings for invulnerable and reroll goodness

Beside this is the troops section find me a awesome troop choice in any codex that doesn't have glareing flaws.

My one greivence with csm is that the cc weapons are too expensive so make them 1pt per model and also make champion power weapons 10 pts each since the challenge rule forces you to take a decent weapon.

As for leigon tactics, doesn't realy suit the splintered nature of chaos. Most legions dissolved into warbands and developed their own tactics outside of the codex astrates, a book which is installed in every chaos lavatory across the eye of terror.

 ZultanQ wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 ZultanQ wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...Eleven points per model for two base Attacks on a Marine statline? What? I'm also exceedingly confused as to the upgrade weapons you've presented here; heavy bolter or plasma cannon as the only heavy weapon options, two grossly underpriced plaspistols in addition to two special/heavy weapons means you're permitting 100% upgrade weapon density on five-man squads in a Troops unit not to mention dropping a fair bit of the versatility in the unit build.

I am permitting 100% upgrade weapon density, but only for plasma which is pretty dangerous for a five man squad. I think we can all agree that plasma pistol are ridiculously overcosted. The heavy weapon options are really a bit of an afterthought anyway, because who actually takes heavy weapons on CSM troops? I'm a bit new blah blah blah, but I've never seen a CSM unit with a single autocannon/lascannon etc used effectively. If you want to argue that they should also have the option for dual autocannons/lascannons and whatnot, I just don't think it's necessary because looking at the numbers it's a stupid choice to take. You could conceivably build a list that focuses all your troops taking 2 heavy weapons each, but meh, that's outside the scope of this thread.

So why do the heavy bolters and the plasma cannons (which, I may add, CSM have never been able to take) remain? You're taking away an option for because you've never seen it used well but you're leaving a part of that option and expanding on it because it's stupid? I'm not following your logic.

100% heavy weapon density on Troops is weird. Four upgrade weapons in a Troops unit is weird and bizarre and not replicable by any other Troops unit that's not an Elites unit moved to Troops by GW being silly. It makes very little sense from a conceptual standpoint, Gets Hot! isn't especially dangerous in this day and age since armour saves are permitted in 6e, and throwing everything else aside I don't give a rat's ass if they've got a chance to blow themselves up you've handed me six plasma shots on five Marine bodies in Troops for 85 points. I can't get the five bodies I would need to put four upgrade weapons on the unit in most army lists in an Elites choice for that pricepoint.

I suggest being new you go and read through as much existing rules material as you can, try to understand why lists are built the way they are before throwing out fundamental design principles and slashing prices by two thirds. One other note: Design to the middle, don't design to win. Anyone with a keyboard can say "All my Tactical Marines have plasma guns at five points now" or "My Incubi can assault out of Raiders the turn they land from Deep Strike and don't scatter besides", but you might as well be writing bad fanfiction for all the playability you'll get out of the rules.

CSM troops can most definitely take heavy bolters in the current codex. The plasma cannons are there to represent the fact that during the Horus Heresy, plasma was everywhere and old legions should still have an abundance of plasma. Giving loyalists plasma cannons but not traitors, who actually used them more, makes no sense. And "they shouldn't have weapon density because nobody else does" is not an argument, because why does it matter? Should all troops be the same? Would you honestly crap your pants if somebody was fielding 5 man squads of CSM with say two plasma pistols, two plasma guns, and a combi-plasma or pistol on the champ? Dangerous? Yes. Overpowered? No, it just means they don't suck in a meta of "lol MEQ, enjoy not having armor saves or when you do they don't even matter".

So where have the autocannons, lascannons, and missile launchers gone? If heavy weapons are a dumb idea why have you left some in and expanded the options over the current Codex?

Point me to a Troops unit anywhere that's not a repurposed Elites unit and can run more than two plasma guns and a combi-plasma. I'll wait. Point me to any unit in any selection that can run four plasma guns/pistols at 85pts. I'll wait. "Balance" is not "every unit is identical" but it's also not "this unit is strictly better than all its competition, but it's not OP because it's not any tougher". Of that route is power creep born; once you do this what's to stop me from arguing that five-man four-plasma Tac Squads at 85pts are necessary to compete? What's to stop me from arguing that Fire Warriors need access to Battlesuit guns as upgrade weapons to compete? Troop Scions with four upgrade weapons at 60pts because your S4/T4/3+ Marines are obviously better than my S3/T3/4+ Stormtroopers? Where do you draw the line? If your definition of "broken" is "will win me the game without trying against a top-tier list" then this isn't broken, but neither is it balanced by any definition of the word.

 ZultanQ wrote:

The Heldrake being good doesn't make CSM troops good, who are the topic of this thread. I don't even have to look up that list to know that the allied troops weren't a CSM unit.

Your premise was that CSM as a Codex was on the level of Orks. I pointed out how the stuff you do have that's good is good enough to contribute to winning a major GT.

I really don't think the CSM codex is as horrible as people let on. It does have a few glaring problems, but they're to do with Morale more-so than anything else. It just strikes me as odd that those who call the hellish, terrifying dimension of the warp as "home" should be mentally hardened and shouldn't be almost as easy to break mentally as Guardsmen.

Frankly I don't think just giving everyone Fearless is the answer either and neither is just giving them ATSKNF. I came up with a CSM alternative to ATSKNF. Obviously only CSM units would get this, units such as Cultists wouldn't have it by default.

Death to All Who Oppose Us
A unit with this special rule cannot have their Leadership value lowered, regardless of the cause or source. A unit with this special rule automatically regroups so long as their unit is over 10 models strong. If a unit containing one or more models with this special rule is caught by a sweeping advance, they are not destroyed, but remain locked in combat instead. Additionally, a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule is immune to Fear.

Seems very logical. CSM are much less for the whole 'fight to the last man' thing, but that does not mean that they actually are scared. Resistance to LD modifiers also makes a lot of sense.

We call this rule stubborn, and I agree with its inclusion.

However csm are not immune to fear for in the fluff they fight only for themselves, loyalists have total trust in their corpse god hence fear nothing and fight as one, a chaos marine in a chaos warband is out for himself, he does not fight as one but as many individuals. This is true for all of them, kinda like humans really probably why I relate to them easier.

On top of what has been said I would love new sculpts.

 Blackskull wrote:
We call this rule stubborn, and I agree with its inclusion.

Not quite. Marik proposed a resistance to ALL ld modifiers. Stubborn does not help against psychic powers, for example.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Blackskull wrote:
We call this rule stubborn, and I agree with its inclusion.

Not quite. Marik proposed a resistance to ALL ld modifiers. Stubborn does not help against psychic powers, for example.

Against a LD affecting psyker power you would ignore it in the event of a morale or pinning test, because stubborn.and I'm not aware of any other kinds of LD test other than psychic test.

 Blackskull wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Blackskull wrote:
We call this rule stubborn, and I agree with its inclusion.

Not quite. Marik proposed a resistance to ALL ld modifiers. Stubborn does not help against psychic powers, for example.

Against a LD affecting psyker power you would ignore it in the event of a morale or pinning test, because stubborn.and I'm not aware of any other kinds of LD test other than psychic test.

No. What I meant is that psychic powers that reduce your LD also ignore Stubborn. Marik proposed a rule that is not affected by these psychic powers.