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Made in gb
Humorless Arbite





Hull

It is generally considered that the humble heavy bolter is sub-par/underpowered in the current meta. My suggestion for a simple buff is to give it the same rule the normal bolters have. "Rapid Fire".

Therefore at half the maximum range, it would fire 6 shots instead of just 3.

What are your opinions? Do you think that would turn them from an underpowered weapon into something balanced?


   
Made in us
Wraith






There's a different section of the boards for rules proposals. YMDC is for rules disputes.

Shine on, Kaldor Dayglow!
Not Ken Lobb

 
   
Made in gb
Humorless Arbite





Hull

Ah ty whoever moved me! xD

   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

Even just a boost to Heavy 4 would be good, or Salvo 2/4?
   
Made in hu
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





 Valkyrie wrote:
Even just a boost to Heavy 4 would be good, or Salvo 2/4?


My vote is for Salvo 2/3 plus Strikedown.

My armies:
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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





I'd like to see a special rule where all 6s on the to wound roll generate an additional hit on the target unit representing the potential of wounds happening due to explosions harming nearby models or the round punching through one model and hitting the one behind it. Apply the rule to all bolters.
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Regular rapid fire is too much of a buff. It's gona be fine on tacticals but other platforms will get pretty huge benefits from it.

Just make it Salvo 2/3. So that you can still get shots at bs when move. It's gona be fine and noone will feel bad about it. Actually, will be a must for offensive tacticals in rhinos allready.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/04/25 04:40:25


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




I think that they're fine as-is, personally, but if you wanted to buff 'em, you have two in-game options.

1) Movement harness, which allows them to be more accurate when moving. (BS 3, perhaps?)

2) Hellfire Shells, allowing them to fire one shot that wounds on a 2+.

Of course, you can always just drop the point cost by 5 and call it good.

But really, they're fantastic weapons as it stands and I, for one, have no complaints about 'em.
   
Made in us
Shrieking Traitor Sentinel Pilot







Make em Heavy 4. Only a slight buff, but makes them more comparable to other heavy weapons in terms of killing power. Making them a weapon type other than Heavy makes no sense. They're called HEAVY bolters for a reason, and are every bit as bulky as other heavy weapons.

40k is 111% science.
 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Heavy flamers are called heavy but are assault.

Blastmasters look heavy and unwieldy but can fire 2 s5 ap4 assault shots.

Weapon type depends more on game ballance than looks. Fluffwise you can justify almost anything.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/25 05:44:03


 
   
Made in au
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





Brisbane, Australia

Let's give heavy bolters salvo 3/5. Why the feth not? They're literally one of the worst weapons in 40k, being surpassed by the small arms fire of tau forever.

 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Salvo 3/5 Heavy bolters should cost more than 10 pts - that's for sure. Probably 20.
   
Made in au
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





Brisbane, Australia

 koooaei wrote:
Salvo 3/5 Heavy bolters should cost more than 10 pts - that's for sure. Probably 20.


Why? Heavy bolters are on par if not worse than a burst cannon, and burst cannons are pretty unianimously panned as terrible.

They should not cost 20. They should cost 15 at the very most. getting 5 36" range S5 shots for 80 points is not fantastic and it never will be.

Guard pay 7.4 points per S5 shot on a AV14/13/11 chassis with BS4. Marines pay 26.6 points per S5 shot and get 5 T4 3+ wounds.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/25 06:08:54


 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Where did you get such math about guard?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I assume you take a punisher with s5, forget that it's ap-, forget that it's bs3 and has to pay quite some points for bs4 and a tax of another tank with a risk of failing split-fire. And comparing a heavy tank to scoring troops is not quite right.

Better compare heavy weapon teams with bolters in guard's or vet squads.

Now think about how much dakka will this hb sponsons get? almost 2 times more dakka for a minor cost increase.

I think that Salvo 2/3 is the best ballanced solution you can get. vehicles won't change. Infantry will get a fancy ability to fire 2 s5 ap4 shots on the move. Just like blastmasters.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/25 08:43:07


 
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

Heavy Bolters have been consistenly displayed as weapons you can fire at a very limited efficiency at best while on the move, but absolute death to infantry if they are allowed to set up and be braced.

The rules should reflect this.

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Made in au
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





Brisbane, Australia

 koooaei wrote:
Where did you get such math about guard?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I assume you take a punisher with s5, forget that it's ap-, forget that it's bs3 and has to pay quite some points for bs4 and a tax of another tank with a risk of failing split-fire. And comparing a heavy tank to scoring troops is not quite right.

Better compare heavy weapon teams with bolters in guard's or vet squads.

Now think about how much dakka will this hb sponsons get? almost 2 times more dakka for a minor cost increase.

I think that Salvo 2/3 is the best ballanced solution you can get. vehicles won't change. Infantry will get a fancy ability to fire 2 s5 ap4 shots on the move. Just like blastmasters.


AP4 is definitive against saves that'll still fall to AP-, so that's irrelevant - dire avengers have a .4% chance of passing 11 4+ saves, and the average of 5.5 unsaved wounds is enough to kill your average squad.

I counted on paying 170 points for a punisher - you get 23 S5Ap- or 4 shots at those points at BS4. It's still 7.4 points to the S5AP- shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ashiraya wrote:
Heavy Bolters have been consistenly displayed as weapons you can fire at a very limited efficiency at best while on the move, but absolute death to infantry if they are allowed to set up and be braced.

The rules should reflect this.


So salvo 3/5, like I suggested.

A heavy bolter not moving right now will inflict 1.67 wounds on a dire avenger. That's limited efficiency for the points. 5 shots is 3.33 hits and 2.77 wounds. It's really not that much worse. You still can't move and fire, but at least now you can fire with some efficiency if you move.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/04/25 10:02:06


 
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Little Rock, Arkansas

I've always been pretty thoroughly underwhelmed by heavy bolters. How many 4+ armor guys do you really go after anyway?
Tau fire warriors, dire avengers...uh...necron warriors, but its not like they give a damn since they get another effective save anyhow...marine scouts, but they don't care since they tend to just use stealth and cover...'ard boyz? I guess howling banshees and swooping hawks? I think I'm swiftly running out of 4+ armor models to name off. I guess carapace armor models from AM.

And it's not like heavy bolter users have some army wide shenanigans to ignore cover all the time, so most of these guys can still have a save unless the player running them specifically chooses to not grab some cover.

I could definitely see the weapon getting buffed for no points increase. I literally never take them by choice as it is now, so I don't think they're currently "fine."

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Made in au
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





Brisbane, Australia

niv-mizzet wrote:
I've always been pretty thoroughly underwhelmed by heavy bolters. How many 4+ armor guys do you really go after anyway?
Tau fire warriors, dire avengers...uh...necron warriors, but its not like they give a damn since they get another effective save anyhow...marine scouts, but they don't care since they tend to just use stealth and cover...'ard boyz? I guess howling banshees and swooping hawks? I think I'm swiftly running out of 4+ armor models to name off. I guess carapace armor models from AM.

And it's not like heavy bolter users have some army wide shenanigans to ignore cover all the time, so most of these guys can still have a save unless the player running them specifically chooses to not grab some cover.

I could definitely see the weapon getting buffed for no points increase. I literally never take them by choice as it is now, so I don't think they're currently "fine."


As a side note, to my detractor's defence, because of the amount of high strength, low ap that's flying around, there are a lot more 4+ saves floating around.

 
   
Made in us
Power-Hungry Cultist of Tzeentch




Beale AFB, CA

In the CSM codex, there is no reason to take them. 10 pt AC shoots farther and is much more versatile. They are too powerful at 5 points, but too weak at 10 points. I want to put them in the special weapon slot with a salvo 2/3, 24 inch range, and 5 point cost, instead of the heavy weapon slot, where they flounder.

The worst part about 40k is that my models don't hug me back. 
   
Made in us
Lurking Gaunt




My experience doesn't reflect yours, but the heavy bolter wrecks in my area. Enough AP to cause a threat to everything not a 3+ army and enough STR to guarantee wounds on those same models. Every time I see them deployed, their range doesn't warrant the need to move. If you're hoping to make the heavy bolter mobile, I will cry even more.

From a guy that loses armies to two marines mowing down everything with those six shots.
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

I love Astartes heavy weapons and can't choose between a Havoc squad having 4 Heavy Bolters or 4 Autocannons. (I have a 3-lascannon-and-a-missile-launcher one already)

I am leaning towards Autocannon due to the epic Anvil Industry alternatives and game stats, but something making HB's more threatening could shift the dilemma in their favour.

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Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Southern California, USA

I would either give Heavy Bolters pinning or Salvo 3/5. That way they can be the excellent anti infantry weapons they are meant to be.

Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
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Made in za
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I would either give Heavy Bolters pinning or Salvo 3/5. That way they can be the excellent anti infantry weapons they are meant to be.

Probably the latter.

Pinning doesn't do that much.

Trust me, I've tried.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






if you expect heavy bolters to do something amazing then you're forgetting they're just a slightly improved version of an average infantry gun. I've found that taking a devastator squad with 4 heavy bolters is actually quite effective. the heavy bolter is downplayed so much that people will often ignore them entirely, then I'll crack open a waveserpent, out plops a scoring unit and dakka dakka, the scoring unit's gone.

They're also quite effective on attack bikes, I find. you can get rear armour on AV10 and that works, you can worm around cover and root out the weak links in his army, and all the while he's preoccupied with the guns that can kill his tanks. suddenly he's left with all tanks and no troops, and I win the game on objectives.

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Made in za
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

 some bloke wrote:
if you expect heavy bolters to do something amazing then you're forgetting they're just a slightly improved version of an average infantry gun. I've found that taking a devastator squad with 4 heavy bolters is actually quite effective. the heavy bolter is downplayed so much that people will often ignore them entirely, then I'll crack open a waveserpent, out plops a scoring unit and dakka dakka, the scoring unit's gone.

They're also quite effective on attack bikes, I find. you can get rear armour on AV10 and that works, you can worm around cover and root out the weak links in his army, and all the while he's preoccupied with the guns that can kill his tanks. suddenly he's left with all tanks and no troops, and I win the game on objectives.

They're "slightly improved" bolters in the same sense that a DShK 12.7mm HMG is a "slightly improved" infantry small arm.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/26 15:55:54


 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in au
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





Brisbane, Australia

 some bloke wrote:
if you expect heavy bolters to do something amazing then you're forgetting they're just a slightly improved version of an average infantry gun. I've found that taking a devastator squad with 4 heavy bolters is actually quite effective. the heavy bolter is downplayed so much that people will often ignore them entirely, then I'll crack open a waveserpent, out plops a scoring unit and dakka dakka, the scoring unit's gone.

They're also quite effective on attack bikes, I find. you can get rear armour on AV10 and that works, you can worm around cover and root out the weak links in his army, and all the while he's preoccupied with the guns that can kill his tanks. suddenly he's left with all tanks and no troops, and I win the game on objectives.


What you mean is, my opponent was stupid enough to present his rear armour to me.

Sure, 4 heavy bolters will do 3 hull points to a serpent's rear armour, but that doesn't make your 180 point take worthwhile.



 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot




 koooaei wrote:
Heavy flamers are called heavy but are assault.

Blastmasters look heavy and unwieldy but can fire 2 s5 ap4 assault shots.

Weapon type depends more on game ballance than looks. Fluffwise you can justify almost anything.

Because guardsmen walking around firing heavy bolters is stupid. Harker can do it because he is a giant with a weight lift physique, a regular puny Cadian? I doubt it. Make them heavy 4, they should be heavy weapons they are bigger than heavy machine guns, they are more like automatic grenade launchers. If you want a further bump than maybe sternguard could be able to take them with special ammunition.
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






 Kain wrote:
 TheCustomLime wrote:
I would either give Heavy Bolters pinning or Salvo 3/5. That way they can be the excellent anti infantry weapons they are meant to be.

Probably the latter.

Pinning doesn't do that much.

Trust me, I've tried.


Actually, pinning is quite a disturbance I'd you have many sources spread around, as you can force lots of tests.
And that's just what tactical marines are. Lots of sources spread around.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in us
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





I like the salvo 3/5 idea so far.


Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
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Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Southern California, USA

What you could do is have the pinning "Stack" a la Bolt Action. Each time a unit gets hit by a unit with a Heavy Bolter than they receive a "Suppression" token. One unit may only deal one suppression token unless you buy a special upgrade. At the end of the shoot phase you count up all of the suppression tokens and then take a pinning minus leader equal to the amount of suppression tokens the unit has to a minimum of 5.

Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!  
   
 
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