Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

OK. Can someone point me in the right direction?

Fateweaver has two heads, each knows Tzeentch powers. One head knows 2 disciplines and the other head knows 2 others.

If I want Fateweaver to roll on the daemonolgy chart, what is the correct way to generate powers? (i.e. what powers does he give up in order to do so).

dfoes the faq give fateweaver permission to change out powers? if not then he cant

That is where I was unsure. As I read it, he could not swap out. But that just didn't seem to make sense.

He has general permission to roll on Daemonolgy, however his special rule (Two Heads of Fate, or whatever it is called), was not changed. As such, that is a more specific rule.

As far as I am aware he cannot as he is one of the "specific" units in the book similar to how Belakor does have access to Daemonology but cannot roll on it.

Similar to Greyknights as well rolling on Sanctic powers.

The order goes

Select Fateweaver
He knows All Tzeentch
The rules then tell you to roll on those disciplines

Now all of his powers are used up because he has to roll on those charts there's no "time" given where he can choose Daemonology.

That is how I am reading it too.

A "normal" daemon psyker can choose to roll on their patron chart or a certain discipline (i.e. biomancy, divination, etc). The FAQ just gives you the option to add daemonolgy as a discipline to choose from.

With Fateweaver, I am not seeing that. Everything is clearly defined with no options to choose, hence no chance to roll for powers. Is there anyone out there reading it differently? If so, please let me know how you would rule it.

Thanks,

Anyone reading it any other way would be wrong, since in the BRB it clearly states with the exception of nids, any psyker can use deamonology, UNLESS they have specific powers listed... Faties is very pspecific as we would come to expect from a special charater and therefor is immune to deamonology

The FAQ says:

"Any model with the Psyker or Brotherhood of Sorcerers special rule may generate powers from the Daemonology discipline..."

Fateweaver does not have the Psyker special rule. He has "Two Heads of Fate". He doesn't get Daemonology.

Angelic wrote:
The FAQ says:

"Any model with the Psyker or Brotherhood of Sorcerers special rule may generate powers from the Daemonology discipline..."

Fateweaver does not have the Psyker special rule. He has "Two Heads of Fate". He doesn't get Daemonology.

And the Two heads of Fate rule says he has two heads, each of which is a level 4 psyker.

While I think you are right that Fateweaver cannot generate daemonology, I don't think this is the rule that establishes that.

I don't have my book with me at the moment.

I know that each head knows all of Tzeentch. Does each head know ALL of the other stated disciplines, or does it roll to generate powers. If it rolls to generate powers, it should be able to roll on the Daemonology table also. If it know ALL powers from the other disciplines, it wouldn't be generating powers at all, so while it would have access to the Daemonology discipline, it would never be able to generate powers.

Each head knows all of Tzeentch. One head knows all of two disciplines (I believe its pyromancy and divination) the other knows all of two other disciplines. (telepathy and telekinesis maybe?)

Either way, you can only use one head per turn and the powers associated with that head. But you never roll to generate, you just have all of them. Because of this, I cannot see how you would be able to generate daemonolgy powers.

 Green is Best! wrote:
Each head knows all of Tzeentch. One head knows all of two disciplines (I believe its pyromancy and divination) the other knows all of two other disciplines. (telepathy and telekinesis maybe?)

Either way, you can only use one head per turn and the powers associated with that head. But you never roll to generate, you just have all of them. Because of this, I cannot see how you would be able to generate daemonolgy powers.

This is not true. Both heads know all of Tzeentch (you got that correct). One head knows one spell from Pyromancy and one from Divination; the other head knows one spell from Telepathy and one from Biomancy. You DO generate powers at the start of the game for these four disciplines.
However, the trees are set, just like any other Psyker. Since he's not given the option for Malefic, he can't take it.

That is what I get for not having the codex in front of me.

The BRB gives Fateweaver permission to generate powers from the Malefic discipline. His powers are only fixed in terms of the Tzeentch discipline. For the other disciplines he has to generate powers so he now gets the option to generate from Malefic instead of any of the other four listed in the codex. You just have to keep a track of which head knows which powers.

In contrast, as an example Be'lakor knows only fixed powers (all of Telepathy discipline) and isn't generating powers before the start, so cannot elect to instead generate from the Malefic discipline.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
The BRB gives Fateweaver permission to generate powers from the Malefic discipline. His powers are only fixed in terms of the Tzeentch discipline. For the other disciplines he has to generate powers so he now gets the option to generate from Malefic instead of any of the other four listed in the codex. You just have to keep a track of which head knows which powers.

In contrast, as an example Be'lakor knows only fixed powers (all of Telepathy discipline) and isn't generating powers before the start, so cannot elect to instead generate from the Malefic discipline.

Except the Two Heads of Fate special rule specifically requires him to generate 1 power on the four listed disciplines. If you generate powers from Daemonology you break that rule.

Having reviewed Kairos' entry again I believe this to be a fair point. As the requirement to generate powers from certain disciplines is defined as part of a Special Rule for Fateweaver this will most likely take precedence over the BRB allowance for Psykers to generate from Malefic.

"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic
powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always
start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random
psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him.'

The book never says "special rule" it says "specific listed powers" fateweaver does not have specific listed powers, he has a special rule that lets him generate powers in a specific way. Each head is a psyker that knows two disciplines and the unit has the daemon special rule, shouldn't each head also know malefic?

Each head does have access to Malefic. The problem is the special rule stipulates where each head rolls for powers, and the FAQ does not change this.

 Happyjew wrote:
The problem is the special rule stipulates where each head rolls for powers, and the FAQ does not change this.

I'm not seeing how the FAQ doesn't change this. A normal(ish) psyker with access to one table would be changed by the FAQ to instead be able to roll on Daemonology. In what principle way is this different? The only difference is that the rule which specifies it is more complicated. The nature of the specification is identical.

One possible interpretation is that you just add 'or Malefic/Santic' to all psykers who are allowed to generate spells from particular disciplines.
Then each head can generate 'one spell from Pyromancy (or Malefic)', 'one spell from Biomancy (or Malefic)'. etc. Each head of Fateweaver will thus know all 4 spells from Change and up to 2 spells from Malefic.'

Not necessarily saying this is right, but I think that interpretation would be at least consistent with the rules regarding knowing particular powers/disciplines.

Trasvi wrote:
One possible interpretation is that you just add 'or Malefic/Santic' to all psykers who are allowed to generate spells from particular disciplines.
Then each head can generate 'one spell from Pyromancy (or Malefic)', 'one spell from Biomancy (or Malefic)'. etc. Each head of Fateweaver will thus know all 4 spells from Change and up to 2 spells from Malefic.'

Not necessarily saying this is right, but I think that interpretation would be at least consistent with the rules regarding knowing particular powers/disciplines.

That would mean that a Grey Knight Dreadknight, who knows Banishment and Hammerhand in its unit entry, could instead roll on Sanctic and generate powers that are not those two.
And no one wants to go down that rabbit hole.

Pyrian wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
The problem is the special rule stipulates where each head rolls for powers, and the FAQ does not change this.

I'm not seeing how the FAQ doesn't change this. A normal(ish) psyker with access to one table would be changed by the FAQ to instead be able to roll on Daemonology. In what principle way is this different? The only difference is that the rule which specifies it is more complicated. The nature of the specification is identical.

Exactly my thoughts

Here some examples:

6th ed:

Belakor - has specific powers(All telepathy) no access to other powers and thus can't roll on anything else
Herald of tzeentch - no specific powers thus access to Tzeentch and Divination to roll
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch - access to Tzeentch, Biomacy etc. to roll
Kairos - specific: all Tzeentch powers Plus 2 lvl4 heads which can roll on A and B plus C and D disciplines

7th ed + FAQ

Belakor - has specific powers(All telepathy) and access to daemonology but can't roll on it
Herald of tzeentch - no specific powers thus access to Tzeentch and Divination and Daemonology to roll
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch - access to Tzeentch, Biomacy etc. + Daemonology to roll
Kairos - specific: all Tzeentch powers plus 2 lvl4 heads which can roll on A and B and daemonology plus C and D and daemonology disciplines

They only unclear question is how many powers form daemonology he can roll for

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
One possible interpretation is that you just add 'or Malefic/Santic' to all psykers who are allowed to generate spells from particular disciplines.
Then each head can generate 'one spell from Pyromancy (or Malefic)', 'one spell from Biomancy (or Malefic)'. etc. Each head of Fateweaver will thus know all 4 spells from Change and up to 2 spells from Malefic.'

Not necessarily saying this is right, but I think that interpretation would be at least consistent with the rules regarding knowing particular powers/disciplines.

That would mean that a Grey Knight Dreadknight, who knows Banishment and Hammerhand in its unit entry, could instead roll on Sanctic and generate powers that are not those two.
And no one wants to go down that rabbit hole.

No, it wouldn't.
If you *know* X powers, you have those powers, you can't swap them, the end.
If you can roll for powers, you can roll on the disciplines listed PLUS daemonology (santic and/or malefic).
Fatweaver would (potentially) have the option to swap his roll on Pyromancy for a roll on Malefic. That is a different situation than a GK Dreadknight swapping a spell that he knows for a roll on a table.
That particular part would be no different to Pink Horrors being able to roll on Change or Malefic, which is allowed.

(Sorry to dredge this thread up again, but the debate popped up on the front page in a different thread, and this is only 2 weeks old)

Another question I raise with fate is he focused? It's giving him powers from each of the disiplines. Which does he also get the primaris from each? I know for daemons and chaos that it always gives you the primaris of your god and, for example prince of tzeentch rolls telepathy, they also get flickering fire, and it still counts as focused. Does Fate also count as focused since he's given those powers.

If you try to claim that Fateweaver is focused for Biomancy, then ask yourself whether he knows any powers outside Biomancy.
If you try to claim that Fateweaver is focused for Divination, then ask yourself whether he knows any powers outside Divination.
You get the idea.

Chaos Focus is wasted on him since his entry specifies that he already knows the Tzeentch Primaris.

randomguy8891 wrote:

Pyrian wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
The problem is the special rule stipulates where each head rolls for powers, and the FAQ does not change this.

I'm not seeing how the FAQ doesn't change this. A normal(ish) psyker with access to one table would be changed by the FAQ to instead be able to roll on Daemonology. In what principle way is this different? The only difference is that the rule which specifies it is more complicated. The nature of the specification is identical.

Exactly my thoughts

Here some examples:

6th ed:

Belakor - has specific powers(All telepathy) no access to other powers and thus can't roll on anything else
Herald of tzeentch - no specific powers thus access to Tzeentch and Divination to roll
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch - access to Tzeentch, Biomacy etc. to roll
Kairos - specific: all Tzeentch powers Plus 2 lvl4 heads which can roll on A and B plus C and D disciplines

7th ed + FAQ

Belakor - has specific powers(All telepathy) and access to daemonology but can't roll on it
Herald of tzeentch - no specific powers thus access to Tzeentch and Divination and Daemonology to roll
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch - access to Tzeentch, Biomacy etc. + Daemonology to roll
Kairos - specific: all Tzeentch powers plus 2 lvl4 heads which can roll on A and B and daemonology plus C and D and daemonology disciplines

They only unclear question is how many powers form daemonology he can roll for

Kairos can't just roll on A and B, he specifically HAS to roll 1 from A and 1 from B. That he how he rolls powers. Adding demonology doesn't matter for the same reason it doesn't matter for belakor, Kairos's rules tell him how he generates powers and simply having access to demonology doesn't change that.

I say he would be focused, otherwise you can't ever be focused as chaos at all since you always have to take the focused power. The way were playing it either no chaos is focused because they automatically get a power from a different discipline (barring them taking all powers in said discipline), or we play it how everyone normally does and it allows you to be focused if you take all from say daemonology and still get your primaris. Most people say since it's forcing you to take it that you ignore it for terms of focus. I do not see in the book where it says that getting a power from another discipline doesn't break my focus.

The wording on focus is slightly ambiguous for most marked chaos psykers, whether Chaos Focus is *in addition to* or *instead of* Psychic Focus.

Tor Kairos it is pretty clear that he does not get Psychic focus for any discipline except change - where he gets the primaris power by default anyway. This is because he flouts the rules for normal Psychic Focus by having 4 spells from Change PLUS one each from two other disciplines.


As to Kairos's heads potentially rolling on Daemonology instead of pyromancy/biomancy/etc, I'm going to change my answer to no. His rules are worded sufficiently differently to other psykers that we should treat him as an exception to the general rules until told otherwise.

For reference, Kairos' rule is: "In addition, the right head also randomly generates one power each from the Pyromancy and Divination disciplines; the left head also randomly generates one power each from the Telepathy and Biomancy disciplines."
Compare to other psykers: "A Herald of Tzeentch generates his powers from the Divination and Change disciplines".

Specifying the number of spells (one each) and the problems to reconcile adding Daemonology to that list as well, make me think RAW is no daemonology.

icefire78 wrote:
I say he would be focused

Seriously? How?

I do not see in the book where it says that getting a power from another discipline doesn't break my focus.

If you generate all powers from the same Discipline you gain focus.
Fateweaver generates his powers from five different disciplines! He's probably the least qualified to be focused of any of the Psykers in the game.

From a RAW standpoint, this matter is very clear:

The Two Heads of Fate: Each of Kairos Fateweaver's Heads is a Psyker (Mastery Level 4). Both heads know all of the powers from the Change discipline. In addition, the right head also randomly generates one power each from the Pyromancy and Divination disciplines; the left head also randomly generates one power each from the Telepathy and Biomancy disciplines. At the start of each of his turns, declare which head Kairos Fateweaver will use that turn. Until the start of his next turn, he may only use the psychic powers known to that head. Note that as Kairos Fateweaver can only use one head at a time, he only generates the Warp Charge points for a single Mastery Level 4 Psyker, not two.

Psyker: Kairos is a Psyker, albeit a very unusual one - see The Two Heads of Fate special rule, above.

He does generate Psychic abilities as per a normal psyker, but from SPECIFIC disciplines.

Even though he has access to the Daemonology Discipline, he CANNOT generate abilities from it as he is specifically restricted to the disciplines in his special rule.


EDIT: As he generates Psychic abilities from multiple disciplines, he doesn't benefit from Psychic Focus.You must all of your powers from the same discipline to gain the Primaris Power.