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So I've been hearing a lot about how nasty chariots are now, but I think I've found an easy way to deal with them.

firstly, I've not seen where people are getting the idea that the riders save can be taken against attacks on the chariot, didn't see anything suggesting that in the chariot rules. (but so many people say it can so I'll assume I've just missed it)

and secondly, chariots are open-topped. so my plan is simple.

Burnas.

I'll drop 15 templates on a CCB, and the chariot rules state all the hits are allocated to the chariot, where they'll do nothing. then the "No Escape!" rule comes into play and the rider takes 15D6 S4 hits, and probably dies, taking the chariot with him. against any other chariot, this is almost guaranteed (usually T3 daemons with 5++'s) an average of 52.5 hits on the rider should do the trick. (this averages 3 wounds on a T5 lord with a 2+ save. could be more, could be less. it'll deal 23 wounds to a T3 5++ daemon, that'll do it!)

so did I just find the trick to killing chariots?

The Chariot absolutely does not get to take the Riders Save. There are some tenuous RAW arguments, but Rider and the Chariot have different profiles, though they are one modes and don't benefited from the others Wargear unless specifically allowed.

The Flamer idea is interesting, but you have to get the Chariot to count as a transport which is difficult and doubtfully RAW.


The easiest way to take care of chariots is charge them with something that can hurt the chariot. Harder to do against CCBs.

S10 Shooting works really well as it's got a good chance to nuke a cCB or ID The Lord. Wraithknights themselves are a hard hard counter to them. Only MSS save them sometimes. Unfortunately,nether isn't much s10 Shooting to go around. Massed S6/7 Rending can do the trick as well, Lords have only 3 T5 2+/3++ Wounds at best, and the Chariot can only take one Pen before it's in trouble. Just take 1.

And fully loaded CCBs run 300pts.

Now, what we really need is for the Necron FAQ to specify that the rider does indeed lose IC to remove that terrible CCBs joining units crap which again like the Chariot gaining the Riders save is tenuous RAW at best.

This would work if the Chariot was a transport vehicle. Unfortunately it is not; it is a nightmarish crossbreed of vehicle and infantry that apparently gains the best bits of both. It is most definitely not a transport however and so "No Escape" never comes into play.

I think we need to be realistic about what the problem is; Chariots are hardly going to be difficult to kill because most chariots are AV10-11 with an unarmoured T3-4 driver.
The problem is very specifically the Catacomb, because it is a Jinking AV13 vehicle that may-or-may-not also have a 3++, ridden by a T5/2++/3++ dude who removes solo characters from a fight and has a 50% chance to ressurrect himself upon dying.

I think that the amount of firepower needed to kill one would be far better served against the squishier bits of his army. The only shooting that means anything is S10 and it will never be available in enough quantity to actually threaten him.

Stick to melee and punt out 3 AV11 Hullpoints, or 9 Hullpoints if you play the Phase Shifter that way.

well, there is some argument that the rider is an embarked unit.

no escape only states if it hits a vehicle that has a unit embarked on it, not that it has to be a transport vehicle.

Chariots state that riders cannot disembark, which implies that they are embarked.

please please please let the FAQ make this work!

Ugh I really wish theyd just change the rules so it was a toughness value. Chariot rules are such a mess right now.

 some bloke wrote:
well, there is some argument that the rider is an embarked unit.

no escape only states if it hits a vehicle that has a unit embarked on it, not that it has to be a transport vehicle.

Chariots state that riders cannot disembark, which implies that they are embarked.

please please please let the FAQ make this work!

Chariots are not transports. Riders aren't embarked in it, they are the same model as the chariot

No Escape has no baring on the CCB. It's easy RAW

 CrownAxe wrote:

 some bloke wrote:
well, there is some argument that the rider is an embarked unit.

no escape only states if it hits a vehicle that has a unit embarked on it, not that it has to be a transport vehicle.

Chariots state that riders cannot disembark, which implies that they are embarked.

please please please let the FAQ make this work!

Chariots are not transports. Riders aren't embarked in it, they are the same model as the chariot

No Escape has no baring on the CCB. It's easy RAW

"no escape" doesn't mention transports, it mentions an embarked model. and as "riders" appear to be embarked units that "may not disembark" (which must mean they were embarked to start with) it seems they should be effected.

 some bloke wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 some bloke wrote:
well, there is some argument that the rider is an embarked unit.

no escape only states if it hits a vehicle that has a unit embarked on it, not that it has to be a transport vehicle.

Chariots state that riders cannot disembark, which implies that they are embarked.

please please please let the FAQ make this work!

Chariots are not transports. Riders aren't embarked in it, they are the same model as the chariot

No Escape has no baring on the CCB. It's easy RAW

"no escape" doesn't mention transports, it mentions an embarked model. and as "riders" appear to be embarked units that "may not disembark" (which must mean they were embarked to start with) it seems they should be effected.

No where does he say he's embarked. They just say he can't disembark because he can't leave.

the chariot and the rider are a single model. If it were embarked then the chariot would also be embarked on itself (which is impossible)

Even if this worked, it's a terrible solution. There is no way you are ever going to get that many burnas near a CCB. It's far to fast.

Of you play I.G. use the presicion shot order and allocate all wounds to the rider, generally after being shinid in the eyes with a flashlight uncountable times the rider will give up on life and simply die of depression(accurate description of how lasguns kill things).

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
Of you play I.G. use the presicion shot order and allocate all wounds to the rider, generally after being shinid in the eyes with a flashlight uncountable times the rider will give up on life and simply die of depression(accurate description of how lasguns kill things).

Chariot rules dictate the Chariot owner assigns all shooting results to either the rider or the chariot, not the one shooting.

Which is why he talks about Precision Shots

But I like this thread! If people are already planning on including bad tactics just to deal with an "okay" model than it has done its job.

Kangodo wrote:
Which is why he talks about Precision Shots

But I like this thread! If people are already planning on including bad tactics just to deal with an "okay" model than it has done its job.

Which do not apply. Precision shots allow allocation against model of choice, but Chariot rules dictate that chariot and rider are treated as a single model.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Which do not apply. Precision shots allow allocation against model of choice, but Chariot rules dictate that chariot and rider are treated as a single model.

Are we really going to discuss this when the BRB literally says "If the Chariot model is hit by a Precision Shot, that hit is allocated by the firer, not by the owning player." in the same alinea?

Kangodo wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Which do not apply. Precision shots allow allocation against model of choice, but Chariot rules dictate that chariot and rider are treated as a single model.

Are we really going to discuss this when the BRB literally says "If the Chariot model is hit by a Precision Shot, that hit is allocated by the firer, not by the owning player." in the same alinea?

I am not going to discuss it further because this is not a YMDC thread. I'll leave this with a reminder that GW is not known for being particularly good at writing clear rules.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Which do not apply. Precision shots allow allocation against model of choice, but Chariot rules dictate that chariot and rider are treated as a single model.

Are we really going to discuss this when the BRB literally says "If the Chariot model is hit by a Precision Shot, that hit is allocated by the firer, not by the owning player." in the same alinea?

I am not going to discuss it further because this is not a YMDC thread. I'll leave this with a reminder that GW is not known for being particularly good at writing clear rules.

Except it's explicitly clear. Precision Shots are allocated by the firer, not the controller.

No, it's a thread in Tactics! And someone used the tactic to use Precision Shots.
To which you replied that Precision Shots do not work, even though it literally says that Precision Shots do work.

If you think that, even though the BRB literally mentions it, something doesn't work like that then you are free to start a thread in YMDC and users will laugh and decide it within three posts.
But please do not ruin a Tactics-thread by claiming that perfectly legal tactics - though bad ones - are illegal.

@The Home Nuggeteer
If I were you I would calculate how many shots you would need to kill it.
It has T5, a 2+, multiple wounds and is basically "Hard To Hit".

Kangodo wrote:
No, it's a thread in Tactics! And someone used the tactic to use Precision Shots.
To which you replied that Precision Shots do not work, even though it literally says that Precision Shots do work.

If you think that, even though the BRB literally mentions it, something doesn't work like that then you are free to start a thread in YMDC and users will laugh and decide it within three posts.
But please do not ruin a Tactics-thread by claiming that perfectly legal tactics - though bad ones - are illegal.

@The Home Nuggeteer
If I were you I would calculate how many shots you would need to kill it.
It has T5, a 2+, multiple wounds and is basically "Hard To Hit".

I don't intend to start a thread in YMDC. I also don't intend to ridicule other members of the forum and would as you to show the same courtesy. As it so happens, people make errors in judgement with these rules because they are badly formatted and written. The wording for precisions shots dictates it doesn't work. The entry for allocation against chariots dictates it does not work. The exception listed under chariots dictates that it does. You'll pardon me for having seen two different points in the book saying that it doesn't work before seeing the one that says it does.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
No, it's a thread in Tactics! And someone used the tactic to use Precision Shots.
To which you replied that Precision Shots do not work, even though it literally says that Precision Shots do work.

If you think that, even though the BRB literally mentions it, something doesn't work like that then you are free to start a thread in YMDC and users will laugh and decide it within three posts.
But please do not ruin a Tactics-thread by claiming that perfectly legal tactics - though bad ones - are illegal.

@The Home Nuggeteer
If I were you I would calculate how many shots you would need to kill it.
It has T5, a 2+, multiple wounds and is basically "Hard To Hit".

I don't intend to start a thread in YMDC. I also don't intend to ridicule other members of the forum and would as you to show the same courtesy. As it so happens, people make errors in judgement with these rules because they are badly formatted and written. The wording for precisions shots dictates it doesn't work. The entry for allocation against chariots dictates it does not work. The exception listed under chariots dictates that it does. You'll pardon me for having seen two different points in the book saying that it doesn't work before seeing the one that says it does.

You at misunderstanding, getting something wrong isn't a problem, insisting others are wrong after being given the direct rules quote is an entirely different matter....

 Zagman wrote:

You at misunderstanding, getting something wrong isn't a problem, insisting others are wrong after being given the direct rules quote is an entirely different matter....

You mean the direct quote, given after my two posts insisting people were wrong?

The CCB does not want to get into CC with anything that can penetrate AV 13 in CC. That is it's Achilles heel.

Actually, in CC the attacking player can split his attacks between the chariot or rider, so the CCB doesn't want to get into assault with anything that can either outfight or swamp the rider.

Assault it. With necron characters being initiative 2, you can very easily pop the barge before the Lord even gets to strike.

The trick is catching up to it, the damn thing moves so fast. As a Chaos player I've had success catching it with my Raptors+jump pack lord unit and with maulerfiends.

Problem is that the chariot is immune to most standard attacks since you strike the front armor. Krak is out, and he can challenge out the guy with melta bombs.

I think the best bet is to just throw a cheap unit at it every turn, if you are marines actually charge him so he is locked on his turn. at which point he is just eating throw away units and is not going to make his points back.

If you assault it, its literally the same as fighting the overlord on foot. The attacker just throws all his attacks at the rider and not the chariot. This is specifically why the khorne chariot is a pile of garbage.

Chariot rules should just be like walker rules but they move like the vehicle of thier type and take ws bs str a and i from the rider. Instead theyre a horribly convoluded mess.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

You at misunderstanding, getting something wrong isn't a problem, insisting others are wrong after being given the direct rules quote is an entirely different matter....

You mean the direct quote, given after my two posts insisting people were wrong?

Nope, I mean the one after the direct quote where you said you didn't want t discuss it because it wasn't YMDC. Basically the post where you were given a direct quote and ignored it.

That one.

 Zagman wrote:

Nope, I mean the one after the direct quote where you said you didn't want t discuss it because it wasn't YMDC. Basically the post where you were given a direct quote and ignored it.

That one.

That's not ignoring it, that's adhering to forum rules. That being, not discussing rules interpretations in a tactics thread. There being a forum dedicated to just that. And just like that post, in this one, I'll say that I'm done discussing it. And if you want to continue, feel free to message me privately. I made statements based on information I saw. I was then proven to be wrong, and accepted it. I moved on four posts ago. I suggest you do too.

Now that the--
"Nuh-unh!"
"Unh-huh!"
-- session is finished, can we get back to discussing tactics?

• don't bother shooting at it unless it's A) S10 and/or AP2/1 or B) precision shots.
• get into combat with it ASAP, but preferably not with single model units, otherwise you're going to be slapping yourself to death.
• if you don't think you can kill it, tie it up with chaff to limit the thing's effect on the game, go after the squishy things in the mean time.

 Leth wrote:
Problem is that the chariot is immune to most standard attacks since you strike the front armor. Krak is out, and he can challenge out the guy with melta bombs.

I think the best bet is to just throw a cheap unit at it every turn, if you are marines actually charge him so he is locked on his turn. at which point he is just eating throw away units and is not going to make his points back.

As far as challenges, the assaulter gets priority in choosing who challenges who. I'd just feed my champion to the Destroyer Lord while my P.Fist Lord casually crushes the barge.

Once you actually catch the damn thing, it's not too hard to take out.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Problem is that the chariot is immune to most standard attacks since you strike the front armor. Krak is out, and he can challenge out the guy with melta bombs.

I think the best bet is to just throw a cheap unit at it every turn, if you are marines actually charge him so he is locked on his turn. at which point he is just eating throw away units and is not going to make his points back.

As far as challenges, the assaulter gets priority in choosing who challenges who. I'd just feed my champion to the Destroyer Lord while my P.Fist Lord casually crushes the barge.

Once you actually catch the damn thing, it's not too hard to take out.

Yep, but that requires that you have two characters in the unit.

Also your HQ will still need to get a 5 or a 6 to put a hull point on and then get through the 3+ invul. Its always on front armor in the assault so unless its shield is down then its gonna be 13.

That is where the problem is.