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 BoomWolf wrote:
In his rules, he spesifically has a rule saying the owning player allocates any shot he makes.

His Deadshot rule says he allocates WOUNDs. Please point me to where it says he allocates hits.

 BoomWolf wrote:
In his rules, he spesifically has a rule saying the owning player allocates any shot he makes.

Wounds != Hits

Since the hit would be allocated to the chariot and not the rider (if the opponent was smart anyways) there would be no wound to allocate in the first place which would render Deadshot useless.

Just faced two yesterday and man they are rough. Automatically getting three sweep attacks on top of everything else just makes them even more nasty. They can plink off a slightly lowered unit and then charge another one. Str 10 ap 2 or plasma in the back is really your best bet, anything else is going to be rough.

Also Templates and Blasts are automatically allocated to the barge, so if you have a high strength blast weapon and you can get that pen, that might be a way to get through it. Once its armor drops to 11 it is a whole new ball game.

d6 str 6 hammers on top of 3 str 7 attacks will chew up a small squad, possibly leaving 1-2 alive so he is in combat on your turn.

Only real option at that point is to tarpit in CC, or try and get some force weapon attacks through(although it is super annoying when he makes 6 3++ saves in a row against instant death before he just gets up again. Also I see that blobs can have melta bombs, so if he gets stuck in a blob and then surrounded you can make it so he cant get back up.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Vindicare Assassin. Shield breaker to strip the invul, and then it's easy pickings.

-Matt

I don't believe this would work, as the wording is wounds in the GK codex, so you could just have it hit the vehicle, where no wounds would ever occur.

Deadshot: Wounds caused by the Vindicare's shooting attacks are always allocated by the vindicare's controlling player.
Shield Breaker: When a wound from this round is allocated to a model, that model loses any invulnerable saves granted by items of wargear immediately, and for the rest of the battle. Remaining saves (if any) can then be taken.

Since the Barge players are claiming that both gain the invul save from the overlords wargear as it says "The model", then I'm claiming that a shield breaker takes it away from both also on the phase "that model".

Chariot owner makes you shoot at the chariot so you roll armor penetration and don't cause any wounds. Since you didn't deal any wounds you don't get to allocate it and you don't remove the 3++ invul.

Why are any of you intentionally stopping a unit in a single file line near a CCB to get hit by sweep attacks? They aren't fast enough to utilize those unless opponents voluntarily submit to them.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Why are any of you intentionally stopping a unit in a single file line near a CCB to get hit by sweep attacks? They aren't fast enough to utilize those unless opponents voluntarily submit to them.

Because they just have to pass over one model to get three attacks......

The best way to deal with a CCB is to tar pit the guy. 3 attacks, usually hitting on 4's, with no reroll takes a long time to chew through most things.

 Leth wrote:

Because they just have to pass over one model to get three attacks......

In order for the CCB to fly over the smallest base, the enemy had to end their own turn within 1" to ~6.5" away from the CCB.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Leth wrote:

Because they just have to pass over one model to get three attacks......

In order for the CCB to fly over the smallest base, the enemy had to end their own turn within 1" to ~6.5" away from the CCB.

The CCB is not required to completely pass over a model, a la "leapfrog". It needs only to simply move over part of a model in the course of its movement. So, any unit with a single model within 11" of a CCB can get Sweep Attacked.

The 12 move is quite limiting. Sure you only have to pass over 1 model, however due to the opponents ability to make a small blob out of his squad, and being unable to place a model within 1 of an enemy, means that against a smart opponent you won't be making sweep attacks unless he makes a mistake or is unlucky with his dice. It has greater use against small elite squads, as they are less able to prevent the movement.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
The 12 move is quite limiting. Sure you only have to pass over 1 model, however due to the opponents ability to make a small blob out of his squad, and being unable to place a model within 1 of an enemy, means that against a smart opponent you won't be making sweep attacks unless he makes a mistake or is unlucky with his dice. It has greater use against small elite squads, as they are less able to prevent the movement.

Indeed, against a player who knows what is coming sweeping attacks are of more theoretical nature.
On the other hand, in the end game such a situation might be possible.

Sweep Attacks mostly serve to increase the CCB's area denial, which IMO is more important in 7th than ever. For example, say there's an ObjSec Wave Serpent holding an objective. On my turn, I turbo-boost my CCB over near that same objective. Of course the Wave Serpent can simply move away 12" to save itself, but they'll have to give up the objective to do it. Alternatively, they can keep holding the objective and get Swept then assaulted on my turn. Whether the Sweep happens or not, that's a win-win for the Necrons,

Sweeps might not be guaranteed in a lot of cases, but if the prospect of 0-3 S7 hits scares your opponent so much that they'll never get within 12" of a CCB, then they've likely already ceded board control. And that's much more valuable than a couple S7 hits here and there.

More fully On Topic: How to deal with a CCB? As others have said, in close combat. They'll take a couple turns to get through a 5-man Tactical Squad, so any unit with large numbers will be an inescapable tarpit for the CCB. If that unit has power fists or grenades, they'll likely just kill the barge outright.

 whigwam wrote:
Sweep Attacks mostly serve to increase the CCB's area denial, which IMO is more important in 7th than ever. For example, say there's an ObjSec Wave Serpent holding an objective. On my turn, I turbo-boost my CCB over near that same objective. Of course the Wave Serpent can simply move away 12" to save itself, but they'll have to give up the objective to do it. Alternatively, they can keep holding the objective and get Swept then assaulted on my turn. Whether the Sweep happens or not, that's a win-win for the Necrons,

Sweeps might not be guaranteed in a lot of cases, but if the prospect of 0-3 S7 hits scares your opponent so much that they'll never get within 12" of a CCB, then they've likely already ceded board control. And that's much more valuable than a couple S7 hits here and there.

More fully On Topic: How to deal with a CCB? As others have said, in close combat. They'll take a couple turns to get through a 5-man Tactical Squad, so any unit with large numbers will be an inescapable tarpit for the CCB. If that unit has power fists or grenades, they'll likely just kill the barge outright.

Hm? A regular 5-man squad will die in 1 or, at the most, 2 turns.

 whigwam wrote:
Sweep Attacks mostly serve to increase the CCB's area denial, which IMO is more important in 7th than ever. For example, say there's an ObjSec Wave Serpent holding an objective. On my turn, I turbo-boost my CCB over near that same objective. Of course the Wave Serpent can simply move away 12" to save itself, but they'll have to give up the objective to do it. Alternatively, they can keep holding the objective and get Swept then assaulted on my turn. Whether the Sweep happens or not, that's a win-win for the Necrons,

Sweeps might not be guaranteed in a lot of cases, but if the prospect of 0-3 S7 hits scares your opponent so much that they'll never get within 12" of a CCB, then they've likely already ceded board control. And that's much more valuable than a couple S7 hits here and there.

More fully On Topic: How to deal with a CCB? As others have said, in close combat. They'll take a couple turns to get through a 5-man Tactical Squad, so any unit with large numbers will be an inescapable tarpit for the CCB. If that unit has power fists or grenades, they'll likely just kill the barge outright.

Whigwam has the right of it. Area Denial is pretty damn important in this edition, and it's something the CCB does very well.

Between shooting, and average HOW you are generally looking at 1-2 dead marines. More if you roll better than average on the CCB, between that and 1-2 hits/wounds a 5 man tac squad should not last more than a full game turn. This is assuming you get he charge off of course.

I agree though, Tarpits are the best way to handle it.

Sigvatr wrote:Hm? A regular 5-man squad will die in 1 or, at the most, 2 turns.

On average, D6 S6 HoW will kill ~1 MEQ. 4 Attacks on the charge will kill 1.666 (let's be generous and call it 2). That makes 3 dead MEQ's. So, yeah, like I said: two turns.

And I meant player turns, not game turns, if that was unclear.

 whigwam wrote:

Sigvatr wrote:Hm? A regular 5-man squad will die in 1 or, at the most, 2 turns.

On average, D6 S6 HoW will kill ~1 MEQ. 4 Attacks on the charge will kill 1.666 (let's be generous and call it 2). That makes 3 dead MEQ's. So, yeah, like I said: two turns.

And I meant player turns, not game turns, if that was unclear.

are you factoring in shooting and Sweep attacks?
If the CCB is packing a Gauss Cannon, that's probably 2 dead marines right there. If the controller managed to drive it over even one solitary marine before firing, that's probably another two dead at least. With the HoW and 4 normal assault attacks (and let's not forget MSS), I'd be pretty amazed if any members of this 5 man Tactical squad are left standing by the time the Necron player finishes his turn...

 skoffs wrote:

 whigwam wrote:

Sigvatr wrote:Hm? A regular 5-man squad will die in 1 or, at the most, 2 turns.

On average, D6 S6 HoW will kill ~1 MEQ. 4 Attacks on the charge will kill 1.666 (let's be generous and call it 2). That makes 3 dead MEQ's. So, yeah, like I said: two turns.

And I meant player turns, not game turns, if that was unclear.

are you factoring in shooting and Sweep attacks?
If the CCB is packing a Gauss Cannon, that's probably 2 dead marines right there. If the controller managed to drive it over even one solitary marine before firing, that's probably another two dead at least. With the HoW and 4 normal assault attacks (and let's not forget MSS), I'd be pretty amazed if any members of this 5 man Tactical squad are left standing by the time the Necron player finishes his turn...

You are being very optimistic in your calculations. A Gauss Cannon averages .888 wounds (.6 if the Marines have cover). Sweep Attacks average 1.25 wounds. So, OK, let's add those in. With everything the CCB can possibly put into a MEQ unit in a single turn, you've now killed an average 5 MEQ's, and just barely. Wonderful. But that's not what I'm getting at.

The point isn't "How many Space Marines can a CCB kill under the very most favorable scenario?" It's that a CCB has very low damage output against infantry models. Say a CCB Shoots, Sweeps, then charges into a 50-man Guard Blob. And let's say it rolls off the charts for that charge and somehow kills 10 Guardsmen. Great job, CCB. But now you're stuck in with 40 guys, killing a max 3 (likely less) a turn, and you're never escaping. That's my point.

Geez, if the CCB player was stupid enough to charge a Guard blob, he deserves to lose that game.

But yes, I get it. I was just trying to point out that expecting a 5 man squad to hold up a Command Barge on its own turn wouldn't be so realistic... Now if those same marines charged the CCB on THEIR turn, on the other hand, yeah, they're gonna likely accomplish their goal for a couple of turns.

In the case of the Necron player, it's about avoiding traps and choosing the best target.
In the case of the opponent, it's about keeping your vulnerable stuff away from it and finding the best way to get that Barge stuck, and therefore out of the game.

Chariots.

Vehicles have no save profile, so saying the chariot gets a save because the model embarked has a save is arguable, just as arguable as saying the model embarked would lose its save as vehicles do not have a save characteristic. As the model has a dual profile and is treated as one, but when you fire at it you allocate hits, the hits are allocated to a profile. either the riders profile or the vehicles profile. the vehicle does not have a save profile so it may not use the riders save. Given that the previous edition didn't extend the invulnerable save to the chariot, and the current edition even though it states to treat it as the same model, when you allocate hits you use the vehicles armor value, not the riders toughness if you hit the vehicle showing that despite they are treated as one model the profile of one does not equal the profile of the other. Additionally the model embarked, ie the rider, may not fire the vehicles guns during overwatch, this shows that the chariot and rider are obviously not the same model as a model may fire its weapons during overwatch. Unless someone can show that RAW it says a phase shifter extends to the embarked vehicle, ie chariot/ghost ark the phase shifter save would not affect the chariot.

additionally it stats that any characteristic modifier that apply to a chariot apply to both the rider and the chariot, it does not say the opposite that a characteristic modifier that applies to the rider affects both the rider and the chariot.

I realise some people may think this should be in YMDC and not stated here but commenting on the tactics to take out a chariot, if you are going to state that the chariot gets a 3++ because the rider has a item that gives the rider a 3++ without any rules to back it up, is a very gray area.

I think its more valid to post tactics about taking out a chariot without discussing the 3++ as that is people grasping at straws to try and get that rule to extend to the chariot profile from the rider profile.



The rider of the chariot is embarked, so flamers will affect it as its an open topped vehicle. The fact that the brb specifically says the model may not disemark, means the model is embarked as only embarked models may disembark.

However the chariot rules are specific in that blast weapons/templates are always resolved against the chariot, so you cant flame the rider even though its open topped.

if the chariot model is hit by a precision shot the firer can allocate the hits.


That said the key to taking down a chariot is to either engage them quickly with fast moving elements to mitigate their swep attacks and deny hammer of wrath, or to shoot them with high strength low ap weapons.