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So, I had a thought. A lot of the complaints about Tau are related to Markerlight spam making everything basically AP3 ignores cover BS5 or so.

How about if we reduced Markerlights so that instead of being Range 36" Heavy Weapons, they were Range 12" Assault 1? Promotes a far more mobile, but also far riskier battle strategy, and breaks up the gunline. Of course, Skyrays would have to have their Networked 'lights switched up to still have longer range, but Skyrays aren't exactly broken enough to be spammed in any case.

Uhh. . . Where do Markerlights make things AP 3? 'Cause I want some of that action.


Heavy 1 Markerlights is the weakness of Markerlights. That and virtually all of the dedicated marker units are fairly fragile and clustered in the Fast Attack slot. This makes the marker units static, easy to kill and few in number.

Markerlights don't make things AP3, but most of the guns they're used to aim already are.

All of the markerlight units being in fast attack isn't really a weakness though. I mean, what else are you going to take? Sunsharks?

Heavy 1 isn't really a disadvantage because of their ability to fire at extreme stand-off ranges.

Units using markerlights are fragile. They're either t3 5+ save (pathfinders), t4, 4+ save (marker drones), or av10/10/10 2hp skimmer (tetras). Those are the primary source of markerlights for most Tau players. If they're just pathfinders, a single flamer template and they scatter to the winds. If they're drones attached to a commander for bs5, just pour fire into them like you would to kill any old MEQ. The only tricky one is tetras, and just about anything will wreck those. If your opponent has markerlights past turn 2, you're putting bullets in the wrong spot.

Funny thing is markerlights used to have a lot more options in the previous edition. I would still like the ability to -1 ld a pinning test for each marker spent, or even ignore night fighting for things w/o blacksun filters, as night fighting is just a universal stealth now. Right now markerlights can only be used for two things, which is increasing ballistic skill and ignoring cover. Maybe the 'fix' to markerlights is adding additional things to do with them that compete with +1BS or ignore cover?

36 inches is such an extreme stand off range for a heavy weapon. Why at that range I should be able to avoid retaliation from Missile Launchers and Lascannons.

No, well I should at least be able to avoid Heavy Bolters and Plasma Cannons at that range.

Huh, no again.

Well at least Sniper rifles can't . . . wait, huh, they can too.

At least they still out range Multi-Meltas.

The change would absolutely cripple pathfinders and make more people take drone commanders if they plan on using marker lights or buff commanders if not. This would put pathfinders too close to enemy units to survive and even drones would have issues with having to move back 2d6" just to avoid being caught in assault as well.

I'd be for it if guide, prescience, and misfortune also received negatives like rolling a single one causing a perils of the warp with a -4 modifier. But with the suggestion there is just no way that markers would be even remotely usable at that point.

Sure they are. Well. I'll see about proxying a list this afternoon and watch how it goes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Having tested it out (admittedly with a non-optimised list) against a Legiones Astartes word bearer army led by Kor Phaeron... making Markerlights range 12 Assault 1 weapons doesn't cripple them, but it does force you to reconsider how you use your pathfinders. Running them as a skirmish screen in front of a mobile line of fire warriors with stealth suit support works excellently, especially using Darkstrider to let them fall back out of assault range.

I would have to hear more details on this. How did you manage to keep a squad of pathfinders so close to enemy units along with an expensive HQ and not get the unit shot to bits?

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I would have to hear more details on this. How did you manage to keep a squad of pathfinders so close to enemy units along with an expensive HQ and not get the unit shot to bits?

This.

A unit of pathfinders can be vapourised by pretty much any unit in the game thanks to T3, 5+ save and small units.

Relatively dense terrain and having three squads of them.

My list (1750 odd)

Detachment 1
Shadowsun
(3 drones)
6 Stealth Suits
(2 fusion blasters)
6 Fire Warriors
6 Fire Warriors
10 Pathfinders
10 Pathfinders
4 Pathfinders
(3 Rail Rifles)
3 Broadsides
(2 drones, ATS, Override)

2nd Detachment
Darkstrider
6 Stealth Suits
(2 Fusion Blasters)
7 Fire Warriors
7 Fire Warriors
10 Pathfinders
4 Pathfinders
(3 Rail Rifles)
4 Pathfinders
(3 Rail Rifles)

Facing off against a Heresy list that was something like,
Kor Phaeron
- Terminator Command Squad
- Land Raider Phobos
10 Tactical Marines (autocannon)
10 Tactical Marines (autocannon)
10 Gal Vorbek (or whatever the super-possessed are called)
10 Ashen Circle

Eh, it was last week, I can't remember the rest of his army.

Anyway, I kept the pressure on and gave him too many different Pathfinders to aim at, skirted around a lot, and.. well, yes, they dissolved as soon as he unleashed Fury of the Legion, but until then they did well enough using cover saves.

I'd have to give this a try myself. Your list had 30+ marker lights and mostly volume of fire. This is also going against an army that was actively moving in closer. Staying at range and luring out pathfinders to cause an army wide effect by taking them down seems like the very obvious response.

I thought Pathfinder squads maxed out at 8. Are you counting drones?

Jefffar wrote:
I thought Pathfinder squads maxed out at 8. Are you counting drones?

8 max was the old book. In the new one they can take up to 10 Pathfinders and then drones on top of that.

Here's what I'd do.
1) every marker light fires before normal shooting in the squad, and can target a different unit than the rest of the normal shooting.
2) Marker lights become assualt 30" guns.
3) Marker light hits can do one of the following: Give units firing on the target +1 BS, give the target -1 cover, remove the bonus stealth from night fire, fire a seeker missile at BS5 at the target. No option may be selected twice on the same target.
That would cap BS to +1, and cap cover to -1.

I dislike that step-1 fighting tau is always kill all the marker lights. I'd like to see the impact of the lights dimmed to where I need to make a decision between killing the lights, and killing the guys with the lights.
Likewise, making the lights assault should fit the fluff of highly mobile firewarriors better; but with the trade off of reduced effect for multiple marker lights.

Are those fixes to markerlights or ways to make sure nobody takes markerlights?

In all seriousness capping it at BS4 almost armywide is a huge nerf and capping it at -1 cover makes it completely pointless. That makes it significantly worse than in the 4th ed codex where nobody took markerlights during 5th and early 6th.

With that fix there is no way you'd ever see more than squads of 4 pathfinders or 2 drones with controller, since any extra marker lights are completely wasted. Seekers aren't even that popular, and when taken it's on a skyray which generally will shoot at BS5 due to it's own marker.

Leaving them with insane range and improving their weapon type isn't going to encourage maneuver warfare, its just going to make people lazy with deployment. The idea is to encourage people to take risks with their marker squads, not prop them up further.

So, how does the Skyray do with the proposed rules, now that it has to get within 12 to use its markers, but if it moves it has to snap shot every weapon but one of the Markers?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Leaving them with insane range and improving their weapon type isn't going to encourage maneuver warfare

You're not looking at the problem. It's a support unit. It shouldn't necessarily be on the front line. If you want to encourage maneuverability, then make pulse carbines more viable on Firewarriors. Give them a transport that's worth keeping them in and moving up. Making markerlights useless does not stop gunline builds. You need to make the mobile build more viable. Which mobile builds are very viable, with the exception of our tanks which do suffer slightly.

Jefffar wrote:So, how does the Skyray do with the proposed rules, now that it has to get within 12 to use its markers, but if it moves it has to snap shot every weapon but one of the Markers?

I did say that an exception would have to be made for Skyrays. :p

Savageconvoy wrote:You're not looking at the problem. It's a support unit. It shouldn't necessarily be on the front line. If you want to encourage maneuverability, then make pulse carbines more viable on Firewarriors. Give them a transport that's worth keeping them in and moving up. Making markerlights useless does not stop gunline builds. You need to make the mobile build more viable. Which mobile builds are very viable, with the exception of our tanks which do suffer slightly.

Pathfinders are supposed to be on the front line. Actually, they're supposed to be ahead of the front lines. That's why they have Scout. The fluffy Pathfinder's life is dangerous, daring and short, because they have light armour and are in more danger than other army elements because of their forward deployment.

Being deployed ahead of the army to scout doesn't mean they have to be right in the front line. 12" range puts them at the very front of the advancement, putting the softest and juciest target right in the perfect range to get slaughtered.

If you want them to die faster, make them take Mob Rule style hits every phase.

 Furyou Miko wrote:



Pathfinders are supposed to be on the front line. Actually, they're supposed to be ahead of the front lines. That's why they have Scout. The fluffy Pathfinder's life is dangerous, daring and short, because they have light armour and are in more danger than other army elements because of their forward deployment.

Pathfinders are, just like pathfinders in real life, forward observation scouts.

They locate the target and guide in the rest of the force, possibly harassing the enemy vanguard to slow their advance in order to buy time for the main force to prepare. That does not mean that once the battle begins they have to be closer than all the other elements of the army as they could disengage and fall back to lure the enemy into a trap.

Think of the actual tabletop battle as being when the rest of the Tau force has caught up with the pathfinders. The pathfinders fall back to take on the role of marking targets for the force and maybe providing sniper fire from Rail Rifles or crippling light armour with Ion Rifles. Maybe they also push forwards to strike at soft targets or attack heavier armour with EMP grenades.

How does a laser pointer have a shorter range than a lasgun, which is comparable in killing ability. I can blind a pilot with a high powered laser pointer from a long distance away if i could buy the required laser pointer as they are illegal now. Its fine where it is, in fact if fluff is to be strictly obeyed laser pointers should have a really hefty range.

Perhaps upping the cost of the effects markerlights give would be better, or if you want mobile warfare out of tau and are heck bent on crazy markerlight range nerfs 18 inches is more resonable, or give it rapid fire, give tgem an inventive to get up close. Make marker effects cost more and make markers 18 inches rapid fire. If you insist on less range

Less effective range because unlike the laser gun, you have to hold the markerlight on the target. Much harder to do than simply point and shooting from half a click away.

No, that's why its a Heavy Weapon.

Markerlights are essentially a version of this that can be mounted on a rifle for easy of carry. They still need to be held still to do their job right.

I disagree the closer you are to the enemy the harder it is to concentrate on pointing it at him as he may be yelling screaming cackling or getting ready to charge you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Less effective range because unlike the laser gun, you have to hold the markerlight on the target. Much harder to do than simply point and shooting from half a click away.

wait i dont have to hold a lasgun on target? Then why do i have to roll to hit rolls with my guardsmen?

Not as long as with a Markerlight.

Las gun only needs to be on target when the shot is taken. Markerlight has to stay on target until the unit using it to guide their attack has hit their target.

The simple solution would be to cap the number of markerlight counters a given unit could use at one, I'd think.

Maybe Twin-Linked instead of a BS boost. Better for most units but not able to really crank it up to obscene chances to hit.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Less effective range because unlike the laser gun, you have to hold the markerlight on the target. Much harder to do than simply point and shooting from half a click away.

I'd argue that it's easier to keep a target painted with a continuous beam than to shoot a single shot and hit that same target when at long range.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Less effective range because unlike the laser gun, you have to hold the markerlight on the target. Much harder to do than simply point and shooting from half a click away.

I'd argue that it's easier to keep a target painted with a continuous beam than to shoot a single shot and hit that same target when at long range.

I'd agree, as long as the laser beam is held as steady as possible, ideally it should be stationary. This is why Markerlights are heavy weapons.