Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It's fallen a bit since this was published in 2009, but is still at an appalling level:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/06/25/idUSLP41181

According to the WHO, almost 6% of deaths globally are attributed to alcohol:

http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/facts/alcohol/en/

An article from the Huffington Post:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/11/alcohol-related-deaths-_n_821900.html

My question is with death rates like this, how come governments don't make alcohol as hard to obtain as guns or we get the level of media outrage that we get against guns or even aids?

Taxes.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Taxes.

I would say that, and the fact that most of the people against guns like drinking.

Yes, rather than think of ways to solve the problem, let's make our question be one of trying to make a political stand on it. Cause that's helping people.

 curran12 wrote:
Yes, rather than think of ways to solve the problem, let's make our question be one of trying to make a political stand on it. Cause that's helping people.

You have to understand the problem before you can solve it. It's just interesting to me the people against guns because"guns kill", are more than likely to be drinkers who share alcohol out with friends.o

Relapse wrote:
It's fallen a bit since this was published in 2009, but is still at an appalling level:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/06/25/idUSLP41181

According to the WHO, almost 6% of deaths globally are attributed to alcohol:

http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/facts/alcohol/en/

An article from the Huffington Post:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/11/alcohol-related-deaths-_n_821900.html

My question is with death rates like this, how come governments don't make alcohol as hard to obtain as guns or we get the level of media outrage that we get against guns or even aids?

What are you going to do? Prohibit the sale of booze? We've tried that here in the states and it was a flop.

Do that in Russia, and you'll have a revolution on your hands.

 kronk wrote:

Relapse wrote:
It's fallen a bit since this was published in 2009, but is still at an appalling level:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/06/25/idUSLP41181

According to the WHO, almost 6% of deaths globally are attributed to alcohol:

http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/facts/alcohol/en/

An article from the Huffington Post:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/11/alcohol-related-deaths-_n_821900.html

My question is with death rates like this, how come governments don't make alcohol as hard to obtain as guns or we get the level of media outrage that we get against guns or even aids?

What are you going to do? Prohibit the sale of booze? We've tried that here in the states and it was a flop.

Do that in Russia, and you'll have a revolution on your hands.

No point in even trying that. I am just interested in why people who support an industry that kills so many people a year for the sake of recreation are so hot against guns

I'd be more violent if someone tried to take my bourbon than if someone tried to take my gun. I'd be most violent if someone tried to take my Warhound Titan.

 kronk wrote:
I'd be more violent if someone tried to take my bourbon than if someone tried to take my gun. I'd be most violent if someone tried to take my Warhound Titan.

What about the women?

Relapse wrote:
No point in even trying that. I am just interested in why people who support an industry that kills so many people a year for the sake of recreation are so hot against guns

The same reasons that have been explained to you every time you trot out this tired strawman.

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

 kronk wrote:
I'd be more violent if someone tried to take my bourbon than if someone tried to take my gun. I'd be most violent if someone tried to take my Warhound Titan.

What about the women?

Good point!

They might be sad, too, if someone took my Warhound Titan!

Relapse wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Yes, rather than think of ways to solve the problem, let's make our question be one of trying to make a political stand on it. Cause that's helping people.

You have to understand the problem before you can solve it. It's just interesting to me the people against guns because"guns kill", are more than likely to be drinkers who share alcohol out with friends.o

It's you pushing an idea, call it what you want, but don't insult my intelligence.

If this was about "understanding the problem", it would not lead with some kind of strike against those against gun control. I am tentatively in favor of gun control, and even I can smell the BS of this whole line of thought. Take the strawman elsewhere.

Relapse wrote:
My question is with death rates like this, how come governments don't make alcohol as hard to obtain as guns or we get the level of media outrage that we get against guns or even aids?

The last Russian tsar that tried to limit alcohol consumption of his people was almost killed in the uprising that immediately followed the new laws. The Soviet government also tried to prohibit the sale of alcohol, but people simply started to make their own, which actually increased the death rate because of all the bad alcohol.
Russians love their vodka way too much, they drink it like other people drink beer (even more actually). Beer was only first classified as an alcoholic beverage a few years ago. Before that, it was always classified as a soft drink. Russians also drink a lot of beer. It tastes like lemonade

This huge love for alcohol is something the Russians have always had. It has never really been that problematic though. That only changed with the '90s.
The Fall of the Soviet Union brought widespread chaos, conflict and ruin, the entire Russian society collapsed. There suddenly was massive poverty, lack of everything and criminal gangs ruled everything all the way up to the Kremlin and essential infrastructure was neglected. Russia pretty much became a 3rd world country in a matter of months. Faced with this horrible and hopeless situation, many people turned to excessive drinking in order to forget their problems.

As big as Russia's alcohol problem was in 2009, it was much, much worse in 1992. Now Putin has been in charge since 2000, and since then, he has been rebuilding Russia. The alcohol problem, while still present, has already diminished quite a lot since 2009 and even more since 2000. Putin has already been trying to take measures against it by raising prices and introducing stricter legislation, but it still remains persistent. I have no doubt however that it will mostly disappear again in the future as Russia continues to grow. Putin is the man responsible for putting a halt to Russia's ruination, keeping Russia from falling apart, wiping out the criminal gangs, rebuilding the economy and military and drastically improving the standard of living. I am pretty sure he will also be able to take on the vodka. This is also the reason why Putin is so immensely popular in Russia, he has given the Russian people a future again. This is something people in the West do not always realise, often they just see a scary authoritarian KGB man.

 curran12 wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Yes, rather than think of ways to solve the problem, let's make our question be one of trying to make a political stand on it. Cause that's helping people.

You have to understand the problem before you can solve it. It's just interesting to me the people against guns because"guns kill", are more than likely to be drinkers who share alcohol out with friends.o

It's you pushing an idea, call it what you want, but don't insult my intelligence.

If this was about "understanding the problem", it would not lead with some kind of strike against those against gun control. I am tentatively in favor of gun control, and even I can smell the BS of this whole line of thought. Take the strawman elsewhere.

Deny the hypocracy of the gun control advocates who use and encourage the use of alcohol if you wish, but there it is.

I own weapons and drink in moderation

 Kanluwen wrote:

Relapse wrote:
No point in even trying that. I am just interested in why people who support an industry that kills so many people a year for the sake of recreation are so hot against guns

The same reasons that have been explained to you every time you trot out this tired strawman.

It's no strawman when it's linked to that many deaths.

I'm in an odd place today so I'll preface this by saying that I in no way feel strongly about what I'm about to say.



What's Putin's address so I can send him a few cases of vodka?

 agnosto wrote:
I'm in an odd place today so I'll preface this by saying that I in no way feel strongly about what I'm about to say.



What's Putin's address so I can send him a few cases of vodka?

23, Ilyinka Street,
Moscow, 103132, Russia

Careful. He might return the favor and send you Worker Class 9 Vodka

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
I'm in an odd place today so I'll preface this by saying that I in no way feel strongly about what I'm about to say.



What's Putin's address so I can send him a few cases of vodka?

23, Ilyinka Street,
Moscow, 103132, Russia

I wonder if I'd get a thank-you note...

Maybe even a autographed picture of him riding a bear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jihadin wrote:
Careful. He might return the favor and send you Worker Class 9 Vodka

Can't be worse than soju.

Russia has far more horrifying substance abuse issues than alchohol. Desomorphine is the stuff of nightmares.

@relapse- anti-gun folks are eventually going to turn to booze- but they have learned the lessons of history. When Prohibition took place in the US without dissolving the right to bear arms, there was a brief period of peace as the country slept off their last hangover. Then the folks with guns started making booze, and using their guns to settle any silly arguments.

Now, the Teetotallers are playing the long con, and are engaged in removing guns so that Prohibition can rise again, without the mobs.

 agnosto wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
I'm in an odd place today so I'll preface this by saying that I in no way feel strongly about what I'm about to say.



What's Putin's address so I can send him a few cases of vodka?

23, Ilyinka Street,
Moscow, 103132, Russia

I wonder if I'd get a thank-you note...

Maybe even a autographed picture of him riding a bear.


Can't be worse than soju.

That picture better be shirtless. what am I saying? I know it will be shirtless.
Also Soju is quite awesome.

Relapse wrote:

My question is with death rates like this, how come governments don't make alcohol as hard to obtain as guns or we get the level of media outrage that we get against guns or even aids?

I know that in some rural areas of the Midwest, where the only liquor stores are county owned, it is significantly easier to buy a gun than to buy alcohol.

As to why there is less outrage: Alcohol consumption is an accepted part of life in many, many countries. And trying to ban it, or even significantly restrict it, would not go over well.

 dogma wrote:

Relapse wrote:

My question is with death rates like this, how come governments don't make alcohol as hard to obtain as guns or we get the level of media outrage that we get against guns or even aids?

I know that in some rural areas of the Midwest, where the only liquor stores are county owned, it is significantly easier to buy a gun than to buy alcohol.

As to why there is less outrage: Alcohol consumption is an accepted part of life in many, many countries. And trying to ban it, or even significantly restrict it, would not go over well.

I think you pretty much hit it on the head.

*waits for a thread about gun control advocates being evil and owning killer cars*

If you want to honestly talk about an issue that is great, but don't keep on trying to conflate two different topics entirely in order to bolster your position on the other issue...

You can still point out that saying guns are very bad because they kill tons of people is a silly argument. Simply because many many more people die from other more mundane things which hardly anyone bats an eyelash at.

Guns are simply not a problem if Alcohol, vehicular accidents, etc aren't given the same scrutiny.


Its as silly as someone having a fear of sharks when you are far more likely to get mauled by a dog.

However, guns are entierly unrequired by society. Remove guns magically this second and Lmost no one will be the worse for it. In fact a lot of people who would have otherwise gone on to get shot will live.

Remove cars and western civilisation will come to a hault. We need only look at thibgs like the fuel crisis in the uk to see what happens when even a small portion of the workforce is unable to drive.

Alcohol is dangerous to the individual when taken to extreems or combined wirh other things. It can have an impact on others too... however direct harm from alcohol (liver disease etc) makes up a very small proportion of both overall deaths/harm and ovrtall proportion of users in most western nations. Controlling alcohol damage is vety much on the agenda here in the uk; minimum prices pet unit, restricted sale conditions, increased penalties for misuse, etc... all are being emplyed or considered to help limit the impact of alcohol consumptuon.

Now, consider what the word "control" brings about when used within mile of the word "gun"...

 SilverMK2 wrote:
However, guns are entierly unrequired by society. Remove guns magically this second and Lmost no one will be the worse for it. In fact a lot of people who would have otherwise gone on to get shot will live.

Remove cars and western civilisation will come to a hault. We need only look at thibgs like the fuel crisis in the uk to see what happens when even a small portion of the workforce is unable to drive.

Alcohol is dangerous to the individual when taken to extreems or combined wirh other things. It can have an impact on others too... however direct harm from alcohol (liver disease etc) makes up a very small proportion of both overall deaths/harm and ovrtall proportion of users in most western nations. Controlling alcohol damage is vety much on the agenda here in the uk; minimum prices pet unit, restricted sale conditions, increased penalties for misuse, etc... all are being emplyed or considered to help limit the impact of alcohol consumptuon.

Now, consider what the word "control" brings about when used within mile of the word "gun"...

I don't accept your premise when you speak of proportion of users. If there were a medicine or other item that caused the mayhem alcohol does, people would be up in arms. Remove alcohol magically and no one would be the worse for it. They would, in fact be better if it happened.

I am more against alcohol than I am against guns, amusingly.

A lot of the alcohol problems stem from the extreme depression levels shared by countries who are within the artic circle. Suicide rates are very high in these countries, the cold winters and lack of natural light really mess with people's minds. Sweden likewise has difficulties with depression, alcohol, and suicides, but Russia is king due to their economic conditions and governmental situations making things even worse.

My family was originally from Sweden and everyone on my dad's side has had serious depression issues, but fortunately they've largely managed to stay away from drinking although it's far more common for people to pick up the bottle. I always have a very hard time with winter, even though we tend to still get a decent amount of light living in the midwest.

My cousin attended college in Russia back in the late 80's and one of the things he'd commented on was how much people drank and how often people would turn up dead from suicide. Everything from self hangings to simply walking off into the cold and freezing to death. Depending where you are in Russia it can be a very bleak place to live before you factor in the negative effect that winter has on people.