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Hey all,

after reading a bit about them, and it being suggested that I use swooping hawks. I'm having a little trouble figuring out how exactly they are best used. I haven't tried them out yet, just trying to theory craft.

its clear that you need 6, so you can pie plate. and this is pretty cheap, at less than 100points.
Adding an exarch with a sunrifle seems recommended, but that gets expensive(considering his are the only 'decent' shots') on a min squad doesn't seem worthwhile and doesn't seem right unless its a maxed out squad, so you have decent supporting fire power.

The other use besides the thrown grenade pack are the other grenades, haywire seem like pretty decent anti tank and should be able to knock out a tank.

The precision deepstriking allows these two things to be set up fairly easy. or alternatively and possibly more importantly can be used to take an unmanned objective.

My questions are;

what sized squad?
what set up/equipment get used?
Are they used as a one shot wonder/suicide unit?
Slight rules clarification, is it 'deep strike - throw - shoot, next turn leave table, rinse/repeat?'
am I missing something from this unit?

Thanks

I like 6 with the Exarch w/ Sun Rifle, they are a real annoyance for your enemies as they are good at taking out back field objective scorers and always remember they come stock with Haywire Grenade, can move 12 and assault with them giving them a large threat radius to any enemy vehicle.

Other then that, you get what you pay for. Don't expose them to excess fire or they die, but they are a good tool kit with that Blind Gun, Haywire and the Grenade Pack theyare cheap and available enough to have a place in my army, especially considering everything can score and they don't scatter.

Also, NEVER DEEP STRIKE THEM. These guys do NOT want to start in reserve, like at all. They want to start on the board turn 1 then Sky Leap, which means they auto come on turn 2, rather then leaving that to the mercy of the reserve rolls. Also do not add an Autarch, they lose the ability to not scatter.

I use 6 with an Exarch and Sun Rifle. If you have spare points that you can't spend elsewhere you might want to get a few more so you can be shot at and still have a large blast.
Other than that it's pretty much what Alex said.

They're a toolbox unit. You'll want to buy an Exarch, and give him a Sunrifle. Start them on the table, and skyleap on the first turn. What you do next depends on what needs to be done.

They precision deep strike means that you can drop them right next to a piece of LOS block terrain, shoot, and then use battle focus to run behind the terrain. Drop them somewhere where they are in LOS of a single enemy infantry squad, hit them with a grenade pack pieplate, then follow up with lasblaster shots (Don't let that S3 fool you - they're assault 3 and have 24" of range, and so can be surprisingly effective). The Exarch's sunrifle will force them to take a blind test (If they're BS1, your hawks will be in good shape to survive the returning fire). Furthermore, you might want to look into giving him Marksman's Eye, as this lets you snipe enemy characters. Hit and Run also has some use, as it allows your hawks to escape from close combat (they're bad in CC, even if you blind your opponent).

Next turn, you can either skyleap, shoot some more, or... assault a vehicle. Hawks have haywire grenades, and so will absolutely wreck vehicles - and since they're jump infantry, they can easily threaten a large section of the board. Take advantage of this, and rampage through squadrons of Manticores or Wyverns.

If you play it right, you won't lose any of your hawks, and you can continue harassing the enemy's back line (or jumping back towards your friendlies to provide some fire support). But you're probably going to lose a few - once your squad has been reduced to a handful, you basically want to use them purely to assault vehicles, or as a endgame linebreaker/objective contester.

I would suggest just that - toss in 6 guys if you have a FA slot to spare (inb4 hurr durr FoC dont matter much in 7th)

Drop a cover ignoring AP4 pie plate the turn you arrive, and because they can precision deepstrike, you will never mishap with them. So you can use this to either place them all behind LoS blocking terrin, or if you find yourself a daring gentleman, you can place them just 2" outside and get a couple potshots off on an enemy squad and then battle focus back into cover, though you'll be in big trouble if you roll a 1 or 2.

Then make use of their strategic placement to race to an enemy tank next turn and hopefully blow it up with those haywires. If they are still alive after that...well...off to the sky once more and even a small blast dropped is better than the squad wiped out.

Take 6, don't take the exarch's weapon (save the points, boys not toys).

I tend to keep them in reserves and use them to hunt objective grabbing units. In a pinch they serve as nice vehicle hunters and really help protect Eldar against things like Imperial Knights.

Between pin-point deepstrike and battle focus you should be able to make good use of terrain in order to protect yourself.

I think 2 units of Hawks is ideal for almost any Eldar list due to their amazing versatility.

I take 6 naked, or 6 including a Surifle Exarch (usually only i've got a few points spare).

Sometimes I start them on the table, against many armies I will deep strike them.

I've had success in two recent games deploying them hidden on my deployment line, then jumping forward to eat an aggresive tank/walker etc. In a meta with superheavies, they are fantastic at hullpointing things down.

Send them against scoring units. Guardsmen, Gretchin, Kroot/Firewarriors. They're not so good at killing T4 3+ save models. On paper, the lasblaster is as effective as a stormbolter. Avoid combat like the plague.

Also, they've fantasic at scoring, now that they are scoring. Great for picking up Maelstrom objectives. Just deepstrike them on it, blow up some infantry, then Skyleap next turn. Just try to avoid getting shot when you can.

They're terrible against bikers with only S3 to hurt them.

Try to play them conservatively until you really need them. These guys are much more valuable on turns 5-7 than they are on turn 1/2.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Also, NEVER DEEP STRIKE THEM. These guys do NOT want to start in reserve, like at all. They want to start on the board turn 1 then Sky Leap, which means they auto come on turn 2, rather then leaving that to the mercy of the reserve rolls.

Goatseer wrote:
Slight rules clarification, is it 'deep strike - throw - shoot, next turn leave table, rinse/repeat?'

Thanks

Be aware that if you start them on the table you can't then deep strike them later if following RAW.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Also, NEVER DEEP STRIKE THEM. These guys do NOT want to start in reserve, like at all. They want to start on the board turn 1 then Sky Leap, which means they auto come on turn 2, rather then leaving that to the mercy of the reserve rolls.

Goatseer wrote:
Slight rules clarification, is it 'deep strike - throw - shoot, next turn leave table, rinse/repeat?'

Thanks

Be aware that if you start them on the table you can't then deep strike them later if following RAW.

Erm, why exactly would that be?

Because the Deep Strike rules explicitly state that in order to deep strike the unit must start the game in deep strike reserve.

In that instance, Daemon summoning would not work at all, as the unit cannot be placed in reserve to be able to deep strike, and conjured units must deep strike.

Aside from that...I don't have my codex on me at the moment, but I believe that the wording for Skyleap makes mention of Deep Striking. If it does, it's fair game, as Codex > BRB.

Belly wrote:
In that instance, Daemon summoning would not work at all, as the unit cannot be placed in reserve to be able to deep strike, and conjured units must deep strike.

Aside from that...I don't have my codex on me at the moment, but I believe that the wording for Skyleap makes mention of Deep Striking. If it does, it's fair game, as Codex > BRB.

The rules for conjured daemon units state that they are treated as arriving from reserves for all rules purposes.

Also the Skyleap rule makes no mention of Deep Strike at all.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Belly wrote:
In that instance, Daemon summoning would not work at all, as the unit cannot be placed in reserve to be able to deep strike, and conjured units must deep strike.

Aside from that...I don't have my codex on me at the moment, but I believe that the wording for Skyleap makes mention of Deep Striking. If it does, it's fair game, as Codex > BRB.

The rules for conjured daemon units state that they are treated as arriving from reserves for all rules purposes.

Also the Skyleap rule makes no mention of Deep Strike at all.

If the skyleap rule doesnt mention the word deep strike at all, how is it affected by this:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Because the Deep Strike rules explicitly state that in order to deep strike the unit must start the game in deep strike reserve.

 Sir Arun wrote:
If the skyleap rule doesnt mention the word deep strike at all, how is it affected by this:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Because the Deep Strike rules explicitly state that in order to deep strike the unit must start the game in deep strike reserve.

It isn't. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

The fact is that if you skyleap off the table on Turn 1, you can't return on Turn 2 by deep strike as you didn't start the game in deep strike reserve. This is unambiguously stated in the deep strike rules. Nothing to do with the skyleap rule.

I'm gonna say the Codex rules for sky leap trump the rules for deep strike. Fluff wise it's too cowardly for the hawks to leave the battlefield and not return. But ignoring that, what everyone has said about using them sounds great I might have to finally try some hawks out myself.

 Barrywise wrote:
I'm gonna say the Codex rules for sky leap trump the rules for deep strike. Fluff wise it's too cowardly for the hawks to leave the battlefield and not return. But ignoring that, what everyone has said about using them sounds great I might have to finally try some hawks out myself.

Have you actually read the skyleap rule? It gives no special permissions regarding swooping hawks deep strike capabilities.

And I'm in no way claiming that they can't return to the battlefield. In the scenario of them having left the table by skyleap on Turn 1 there is nothing preventing them from coming back on in Turn 2 via their own table edge from ongoing reserves.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Barrywise wrote:
I'm gonna say the Codex rules for sky leap trump the rules for deep strike. Fluff wise it's too cowardly for the hawks to leave the battlefield and not return. But ignoring that, what everyone has said about using them sounds great I might have to finally try some hawks out myself.

Have you actually read the skyleap rule? It gives no special permissions regarding swooping hawks deep strike capabilities.

And I'm in no way claiming that they can't return to the battlefield. In the scenario of them having left the table by skyleap on Turn 1 there is nothing preventing them from coming back on in Turn 2 via their own table edge from ongoing reserves.

So essentially they'd have to start in reserves, and then if using skyleap during the game (turn 3 for example) they could deep strike (when returning on turn 4) because they started the game in reserve. RAW he's right, though it is quite silly.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Barrywise wrote:
I'm gonna say the Codex rules for sky leap trump the rules for deep strike. Fluff wise it's too cowardly for the hawks to leave the battlefield and not return. But ignoring that, what everyone has said about using them sounds great I might have to finally try some hawks out myself.

Have you actually read the skyleap rule? It gives no special permissions regarding swooping hawks deep strike capabilities.

And I'm in no way claiming that they can't return to the battlefield. In the scenario of them having left the table by skyleap on Turn 1 there is nothing preventing them from coming back on in Turn 2 via their own table edge from ongoing reserves.

I understand your line of thinking, but this interpretation totally breaks how Hawks work, and how they have always worked.

Be aware that if you start them on the table you can't then deep strike them later if following RAW.

Yeah this is a REALLY silly argument.

Hawks are great, there isn't much else to add that others haven't already said. Personally I prefer squads of 8 just to add a few more bodies and weight of fire, sometimes I find the 6 man squads can put down some wounds but not enough to really cripple a squad.

If you arent taking the sunrifle, always swap them out for warp spiders. Taking the sunrifle gives them a dual purpose of being able to deal with a unit that the rest of your army cant currently be bothered with. A blinded unit is effectively incapacitated. Swooping hawks serve to be an excellent distraction unit that can harass larger units and become a 'must deal with' target very quickly. Because of their precision deepstrike you can really make them a pain to kill. They really arent there for the alpha strike warp spiders are, more to harass deathstars and MCs or pick off vehicles that get too close.

The position that I have set out isn't a "line of thinking", it's the RAW. If you can cite permission for the hawks to deep strike even if they are not placed in deep strike reserves at the start of the gamedI'd be happy to concede. You can't however base an argument against the RAW by essentially stating "this is the way I've always played it so it must be right."

It's not even silly to consider that deep striking the hawks isn't legal if your unit skyleaped in Turn 1. Otherwise you're essentially breaking the rules to ensure a guaranteed deep strike with no scatter on Turn 2 along with an ignores cover large blast attack with no LoS requirement in addition to a normal shooting attack. All from a unit costing 96 points base. This seems infinitely more silly to me.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
The position that I have set out isn't a "line of thinking", it's the RAW. If you can cite permission for the hawks to deep strike even if they are not placed in deep strike reserves at the start of the gamedI'd be happy to concede. You can't however base an argument against the RAW by essentially stating "this is the way I've always played it so it must be right."

It's not even silly to consider that deep striking the hawks isn't legal if your unit skyleaped in Turn 1. Otherwise you're essentially breaking the rules to ensure a guaranteed deep strike with no scatter on Turn 2 along with an ignores cover large blast attack with no LoS requirement in addition to a normal shooting attack. All from a unit costing 96 points base. This seems infinitely more silly to me.

No. Again this is a really silly argument, and the most annoying and useless kind of rules lawyering. (they're also placed in ongoing reserve as per the skyleap rule, which you can deepstrike in from)

Additionally: While the no scatter deepstike, blast drop, and shooting is what makes the unit good, its still a 6 man unit of t3 guys with 4+ saves (at 96 pts) which can be wiped by any real return fire, and is far from OP.

 zephoid wrote:
If you arent taking the sunrifle, always swap them out for warp spiders. Taking the sunrifle gives them a dual purpose of being able to deal with a unit that the rest of your army cant currently be bothered with. A blinded unit is effectively incapacitated. Swooping hawks serve to be an excellent distraction unit that can harass larger units and become a 'must deal with' target very quickly. Because of their precision deepstrike you can really make them a pain to kill. They really arent there for the alpha strike warp spiders are, more to harass deathstars and MCs or pick off vehicles that get too close.

I also agree the sunrifle is boss, but hawks and spiders do two very different things. Very right that hawks "deal with a unit the rest of your army can't be bothered with." Usually this is a horde of gribbles, some stupid camping heavy support, random weapon team #23, etc. Blind is just another bite at the apple to drop in and render said unit ineffective. Between a large blast(always take six) and mass lasblaster dakka+a plasma grenade if you are close enough should put a dent in even the toughest squads. If you don't manage to gun them down, you get a chance to blind them. Next turn you can either horde control or rush the heaviest tank you can find. With fleet and wings, you have a potential 2' charge, and a haywire grenade throw if you are close enough in the shooting phase.

Spiders are also fantastic, but they serve a totally different role. Spiders are wasted on hordes of boys and other general crap. They are made for smaller elite units, light armor, walkers, MC's etc. The only things they can't do is kill hordes or handle Av14, the two things hawks are tailor made to do.

Both units are fantastic tools, but made for different jobs.

I dont think you have that right. Spiders have the same number of shots at a much higher str than hawks. They will rip apart boys as well as heavier units. Their 12" range is offset by their assault move jump. The purpose of Hawks is blind+infinite range large blast. Their shooting is equivalent to lasguns, which barely do any damage. If you arent taking the sunrifle, you are missing out on a big reason to be taking hawks and therefore are better with warp spiders.

The position that I have set out isn't a "line of thinking", it's the RAW. If you can cite permission for the hawks to deep strike even if they are not placed in deep strike reserves at the start of the gamedI'd be happy to concede. You can't however base an argument against the RAW by essentially stating "this is the way I've always played it so it must be right."

It's not even silly to consider that deep striking the hawks isn't legal if your unit skyleaped in Turn 1. Otherwise you're essentially breaking the rules to ensure a guaranteed deep strike with no scatter on Turn 2 along with an ignores cover large blast attack with no LoS requirement in addition to a normal shooting attack. All from a unit costing 96 points base. This seems infinitely more silly to me.

This is why I play Warhammer 40,000 less and less. Skyleap was intended in sixth edition to allow multiple deep-strikes with Swooping Hawks (just as it was intended with the 4th edition codex) and this rules change was almost assuredly an oversight. Congratulations on finding a way to make one already under-performing Eldar unit less viable. All the more reason to take more Warp Spiders and Wave Serpents.

What happens when you take a 5 man squad and attach Baharroth? Will they use large blast or small blast or 2 small blasts? (i assume Baharroth has the grenade pack too, dont have the codex on me right now)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zephoid wrote:
I dont think you have that right. Spiders have the same number of shots at a much higher str than hawks. They will rip apart boys as well as heavier units. Their 12" range is offset by their assault move jump. The purpose of Hawks is blind+infinite range large blast. Their shooting is equivalent to lasguns, which barely do any damage. If you arent taking the sunrifle, you are missing out on a big reason to be taking hawks and therefore are better with warp spiders.

Wrong. Spiders have 33% less shots than hawks, though I agree that because of the higher strength, they'll end up causing the same amount of casualties among boyz as the same number of swooping hawks firing at them would.

That being said, I think Hawks do not need an Exarch because most infantry will be able to pass blind tests (except Crons , Boyz and FWs) and I think we need to keep the Hawks' costs down - adding in an Exarch + Sunrifle throws that 96 point cost out the window and your squad is still very vulnerable (T3, 4+ sv.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
question: is the grenade pack affected by nightfighting rules?

Colgado wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
The position that I have set out isn't a "line of thinking", it's the RAW. If you can cite permission for the hawks to deep strike even if they are not placed in deep strike reserves at the start of the gamedI'd be happy to concede. You can't however base an argument against the RAW by essentially stating "this is the way I've always played it so it must be right."

It's not even silly to consider that deep striking the hawks isn't legal if your unit skyleaped in Turn 1. Otherwise you're essentially breaking the rules to ensure a guaranteed deep strike with no scatter on Turn 2 along with an ignores cover large blast attack with no LoS requirement in addition to a normal shooting attack. All from a unit costing 96 points base. This seems infinitely more silly to me.

No. Again this is a really silly argument, and the most annoying and useless kind of rules lawyering.

No. Again this is a structured argument backed up by clearly citing the relevant rules to support the fact that the Swooping Hawks cannot Deep Strike onto the board if they are not placed in Deep Strike Reserve at the start of the game. Your counter argument consists of saying my argument is silly. It's an easy option to make accusations of rules lawyering when you don't like the implications of the RAW and have nothing to support your own stance.

To reiterate, the Deep Strike rules explicitly state that in order to deep strike the unit must start the game in Deep Strike Reserve (emphasis mine). The Swooping Hawks have no special rules giving exceptions to this or permission to Deep Strike any differently than in accordance with the RAW. The Skyleap rule does not even mention Deep Striking and so the Codex > Rulebook argument is non-existent. You therefore cannot start your Swooping Hawks on the table, Skyleap off in Turn 1 and then Deep Strike in Turn 2 as by doing so you are breaking the Deep Strike rules.

Colgado wrote:
(they're also placed in ongoing reserve as per the skyleap rule, which you can deepstrike in from)

You are correct in that by Skyleaping off the board they are placed in Ongoing Reserves, but you have in fact completely invented the part where you claim they can then Deep Strike in from Ongoing Reserves. The Ongoing Reserves rules state that the units always re-enter play at the start of their controlling players following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves. Normal rules for Reserves explicitly state that when the unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling players table edge (emphasis mine). There is therefore no permission given or implied in the Ongoing Reserves rules for the Swooping Hawks to Deep Strike after Skyleaping off the table. Deep Striking isn't even mentioned in these rules. Again, Swooping Hawks have no special rules exempting them from the normal rules for Reserves or permission to re-enter in any other way than from their own table edge.

In summary, if you want to use the grenade pack attack, your only option is to place the unit in Deep Strike Reserves and roll for the unit to come in from Reserves as usual. If you make a successful Reserves roll you can then Deep Strike them and use the grenade pack as they come in. This is also the only time the unit can use the grenade pack, as if you choose to Skyleap them later in the game they are placed in Ongoing Reserves, from which the unit must re-enter via the table edge (emphasis mine). There is no option to Deep Strike again instead as the Reserves rules explcitly state how they must re-enter play.

 Sir Arun wrote:
What happens when you take a 5 man squad and attach Baharroth? Will they use large blast or small blast or 2 small blasts? (i assume Baharroth has the grenade pack too, dont have the codex on me right now)

Baharroth does have a grenade pack, so he meets the requirements.

That being said, I think Hawks do not need an Exarch because most infantry will be able to pass blind tests (except Crons , Boyz and FWs) and I think we need to keep the Hawks' costs down - adding in an Exarch + Sunrifle throws that 96 point cost out the window and your squad is still very vulnerable (T3, 4+ sv.)

"boys before toys", though I like taking the sunrfile just because it's a cool trick.

question: is the grenade pack affected by nightfighting rules?

It ignores cover, so no. But it doesn't matter, since night fighting is only on turn 1.

Anecdotal evidence but if you take a look at high profile players who take them, they rarely bother with the exarch and sun rifle combo. It adds points to a unit that is plenty good without the extra investment.

Interesting catch on skyleap, and non-reserves.
It looks like you don't have to start in deep strike reserve, just any reserve will do.

So, if a flyer starts in reserve and zooms off the table, it looks like it's legal to have it re-enter via deep strike (if it's got the deep strike rule). Same goes for FMC.

-Matt