Are geeks/nerds their own worst enemy?

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**Ahtman**

Sauce

In a debate on the nature of geek culture at its present juncture published earlier this week, my friend Frederick deBoer wrote what I think is a succinct and important summary of one of the more dismaying trends in cultural conversation today: the inability of people who love what is now the dominant culture to recognize that their interests have gone from marginal to hegemonic.

“My fear is not merely that the geeks will never come to acknowledge their triumph, as comfortable as they are in their self-professed victimhood,” deBoer argued. “I fear too that we have come to so thoroughly associate fandom with grievance that the two are now inextricable. That, I suspect, is the long-term consequence of the rise of the geeks: that we no longer know how to enjoy art without enjoying it against others.”

If being angry at someone who likes something else has become so inextricably bound up in our own pleasure in things that we love, it would go a long way toward explaining why debates about previously nerdy cultural objects and pastimes have become so heated — even at a moment when there are more of these objects being produced at a higher level of professionalism and consumed by larger audiences than ever before.

The numbers are undeniable. In television, the number of scripted shows on cable alone has risen 1,000 percent in the last 15 years, and that figure does not even account for the rise of aggressive new players like Netflix and Amazon. When a graph charting the growth in the number of video games released each year was circulated in 2010, the curve was so dramatic that Kotaku’s Luke Plunkett wrote that it made him feel overwhelmed. Superhero movies have also seen a steady climb in the market share they command.

Nobody is asking that Marvel and DC stop making movies and television shows about male superheroes until we have enough Black Panther, She-Hulk, Ms. Marvel and Wonder Woman movies to constitute parity or proportional representation. Instead, the request is that, in a market where the appetite for superhero movies seems to be infinite, a few of these non-white, non-male characters get some of the slots in an ever-expanding roster that may stretch as far out as 2028.

Explicitly feminist video game critics, like Anita Sarkeesian, and producers of alternative video games like Zoe Quinn, are not actually calling for video games that involve violent, exploitative or indifferent behavior towards woman to be yanked off the market. Instead, they are suggesting that the market still has room to expand, and that some of that expansion might come from a different sort of offering, be it more playable female characters in franchises like “Assassin’s Creed” or more choose-your-own adventure and casual gaming options with new perspectives.

And the boom in television means that there is more vastly more content out there than any critic can consume, much less any viewer who also has a job and a personal life. If we want to glut ourselves on our television genre of choice, we can watch our fill and still have there be plenty of room in the programming schedule for innovative offerings like Netflix’s prison drama “Orange Is the New Black” to be breakout hits. Tony Soprano and his ilk do not have to die so Poussey and Taystee can live.

Maybe this is a period of adjustment, and flag-flying geeks and nerds will emerge from this upheaval in a better place. Maybe people will see that the video game industry can survive both expansion and criticism. Maybe “Game of Thrones” fans will recognize that the show’s essence will survive even with fewer naked, threatened women on screen. Maybe the bomb threats will stop.

The essence of confidence is the ability to handle critiques and the existence of challengers with grace and security in your own position. If what deBoer is describing is a permanent state, though, then a certain subset of angry geeks will prove themselves to be exactly what the once-dominant culture said they were all along: myopic and insecure. The hysterical reactions to criticism and challenge do far more damage to the proposition that geek culture contains rich forms, stories and communities worth taking seriously than any critic ever could.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Interesting read, thank you for that Ahtman.

**VorpalBunny74**

Ahtman wrote:
Maybe “Game of Thrones” fans will recognize that the show’s essence will survive even with fewer naked, threatened women on screen.

Wait, what? Who suggested this?

**hotsauceman1**

Interesting, Geeks do tend to be their own worst enemies.

**Ensis Ferrae**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Interesting, Geeks do tend to be their own worst enemies.

Agreed... I've overheard some nerdy arguments where two people who are, ostensibly fans of the same thing have gotten to the insult phase, and one said to the other "you're not really a Batman fan, you didn't start with [THIS] run of his story" I really don't remember which it was, but I was in a shop, and the guy making the accusation was pointing at a particular "classic" Batman book.

I mean seriously. In that one instance, I instantly felt that hipsters were, in many ways "better" than us, simply because they *only* resort to "you probably haven't heard of it"... I mean, seriously. IF I were a Batman fan (I'm not... Marvel all day) how the feth could anyone say "you're not REALLY at Batman fan, because you don't own Detective Comics #27!!" as if reading EVERY comic of a particular character is the only way to *show* that you are really a fan of them.

**Vash108**

My thoughts where always about some nerds complaining about lack of women and then trying to run them off when they do come around.

**Yonan**

Ahtman wrote:
Explicitly feminist video game critics, like Anita Sarkeesian, and producers of alternative video games like Zoe Quinn, are not actually calling for video games that involve violent, exploitative or indifferent behavior towards woman to be yanked off the market. Instead, they are suggesting that the market still has room to expand, and that some of that expansion might come from a different sort of offering, be it more playable female characters in franchises like “Assassin’s Creed” or more choose-your-own adventure and casual gaming options with new perspectives.

Having not watched much of their material, all I've seen from them is that their material is poorly sourced and not a good argument for feminists. When their arguments are so bad as to be blatantly false and require extensive twisting to give the message they want to present I don't think they're worth listening to.

Few people care if more games are made that cater to more audiences - some people complained at the addition of gay relationships in Mass Effect, but it was mostly non-gamers iirc, more religious or conservatives that decried it as the "gay agenda". It's been proven that gamers (ie. geeks) are some of the most inclusive people that really don't care about race/gender/etc for the most part.

I really don't think that the feminists you listed just want more games made that cater to them - they want "blatantly misogynistic" things like killing strippers to not be part of games, for example.

So no, I think our worst enemies are those that try to control our hobbies based on outside agendas but no desire to be part of the hobby.

**d-usa**

So nerds are just like any other subgroup?

Sports fan get mad if you like other teams. They get even more mad if you *gasp* like other sports! And woe to those that didn't follow Team X since 1994 and just started to follow in 2004 because they are bandwagon fans!

**Sining**

As geek I don't really feel we're our own worst enemies. I'm not even sure geeks argue more than any other subgroup. I'm also not sure why we need to convince people that geek culture contains rich form/stories/etc whatsoever.

**LordofHats**

Is there any human being who isn't their own worst enemy?

Think about it

**Bromsy**

LordofHats wrote:
Is there any human being who isn't their own worst enemy?

Think about it

I did. And wow.

**H.B.M.C.**

“My fear is not merely that the geeks will never come to acknowledge their triumph, as comfortable as they are in their self-professed victimhood,” deBoer argued.

And speaking of kettles...

Nobody is asking that Marvel and DC stop making movies and television shows about male superheroes until we have enough Black Panther, She-Hulk, Ms. Marvel and Wonder Woman movies to constitute parity or proportional representation. Instead, the request is that, in a market where the appetite for superhero movies seems to be infinite, a few of these non-white, non-male characters get some of the slots in an ever-expanding roster that may stretch as far out as 2028.

Umm... what? The most common requests for movies that Marvel is getting are for Black Panther and Captain Marvel movies.

Explicitly feminist video game critics, like Anita Sarkeesian, and producers of alternative video games like Zoe Quinn

Oh here we go...

Explicitly feminist video game critics, like Anita Sarkeesian, and producers of alternative video games like Zoe Quinn..., are not actually calling for video games that involve violent, exploitative or indifferent behavior towards woman to be yanked off the market. Instead, they are suggesting that the market still has room to expand, and that some of that expansion might come from a different sort of offering, be it more playable female characters in franchises like “Assassin’s Creed” or more choose-your-own adventure and casual gaming options with new perspectives.

Way to completely miss the point, and to put two things together (Anita and Zoe) that have nothing to do with one another. They're right about Zoe Quinn. She's not calling for games to be yanked off the market. Anita on the other hand is a censor, and wants to have the things she disagrees with removed.

Maybe “Game of Thrones” fans will recognize that the show’s essence will survive even with fewer naked, threatened women on screen. Maybe the bomb threats will stop.

As above, who's saying this? And "threatened women" in Game of Thrones. Game of Thrones is full of incredibly powerful and forceful women. This writer is an idiot.

**Sigvatr**

Yeah, all those victimized, powerless women in GoT. Brienne, Arya, the old Tyrell, Daenarys, Anora...the hell.

**VorpalBunny74**

I can't think of anyone in GoT who ISN'T threatened. George R. R. Martin plays for keeps!

**Yonan**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
As above, who's saying this? And "threatened women" in Game of Thrones. Game of Thrones is full of incredibly powerful and forceful women. This writer is an idiot.

Yep GoT has a huge attraction to both genders for a lot of reasons. As you say, there are a lot of really powerful women, both mentally and then physically and "lesser" women aren't treated any worse than "lesser" men.

Also, criticising it for female nudity is amusing when South Park did this song covering the abundance of naked males too.

---

Is the Internet Safe for women by the American Enterprise Institute went up today. Once again using actual data in their arguments which is always nice.

**sarpedons-right-hand**

Humans, by our nature, fear things that we don't understand. It can take the form of 'fight or flight', but more commonly takes the form of a good old fashioned argument. As mentioned earlier, sports fans get tribal as do nerds/geeks about quite a few things. 'Batman sucks! Superman is where it's at!', that sort of thing.
What makes me smile is that almost everyone has an 'inner nerd', wether its Football, Video Games, Table top and Role play Games, TV, Movies, Cartoons, Cars, Trains, the list is endless. The people I really feel sorry for are the people with no real interests or hobbies to speak of.
The people that laugh at us because of our 'nerdy' hobbies are often the ones with no significant interest in their own lives and so have nothing better to do...

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Yonan wrote:
It's been proven that gamers (ie. geeks) are some of the most inclusive people that really don't care about race/gender/etc for the most part.

Spoiler:

I do not agree with the idea that gamers and geeks are the same thing, but I do not think either group is especially inclusive.

**Peregrine**

TBH I think gamers probably are more inclusive than average, but it has way more to do with the population that gamers are drawn from than anything about gaming itself. Gamers tend to be on the young end of the scale, and younger generations are more inclusive than older generations. For example, contrast gaming with one of my other hobbies, flying airplanes. That's a hobby that is dominated by older people, most of them fairly well off financially, and leans pretty strongly libertarian/conservative. But if those two groups magically switched hobbies I don't think you'd see any change in their beliefs as a result.

**Yonan**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Yonan wrote:
It's been proven that gamers (ie. geeks) are some of the most inclusive people that really don't care about race/gender/etc for the most part.

Spoiler:

I do not agree with the idea that gamers and geeks are the same thing, but I do not think either group is especially inclusive.

Apparently you missed #notyourshield where a large variety of non-white males refused to let themselves be scape goats for ridiculous arguments. First googled article on the topic if you wanted to look into it. These are people of all walks and they're welcomed with open arms in gaming. Or read through the #notyourshield tweets.

Can you point to any examples of minorities being ridiculed on dakka for their taking part in our hobby? I've never seen it. That said, I've been here a little longer than you, perhaps those who have been here a lot longer could chime in.

Emma Watsons recent speech at the UN was amazing tbh. Feminism that I'd happily stand beside - I highly recommend watching that video.

**Peregrine**

Yonan wrote:
Apparently you missed #notyourshield where a large variety of non-white males refused to let themselves be scape goats for ridiculous arguments.

But that doesn't actually prove anything. Nobody is suggesting that every single non-white-male person who attempts to enter the hobby is immediately abused and forced out. Even in a fairly unwelcoming hobby there will still be people who manage to fit in and have good experiences. So the fact that there are some people saying "I didn't have any problems" doesn't negate the opposite stories from people saying "I had problems".

Can you point to any examples of minorities being ridiculed on dakka for their taking part in our hobby? I've never seen it.

Of course not, because this is a heavily-moderated forum where such behavior would result in bans and deleted posts.

**whembly**

d-usa wrote:
So nerds are just like any other subgroup?

Sports fan get mad if you like other teams. They get even more mad if you *gasp* like other sports! And woe to those that didn't follow Team X since 1994 and just started to follow in 2004 because they are bandwagon fans!

Yeup.

Oh... don't forget about the Fantasy Leagues.

**DarkNecro**

Yonan wrote:

Emma Watsons recent speech at the UN was amazing tbh. Feminism that I'd happily stand beside - I highly recommend watching that video.

That was a good speech especially because it mentioned that feminism is about helping all genders (more than two ) to become equal

**Yonan**

Yes, everyone being equal is a great goal to strive for. You cannot pick and choose, and attempting to only deal with one part of the problem is not only going to alienate others, it's not going to work. Looking at gender roles as a whole is going to be far more productive than vilifying one gender that has many problems of it's own. While I was always open minded about this sort of thing, being exposed to a lot more of it (especially trans) lately has being eye opening for me and I really hope the situation can improve for everyone. Radicals of all types don't help the situation, in this case specifically Anita I think really sets back the feminist cause in video games because yeah, there is some good discussion to be had there when it's reasonable, rational nad based on solid evidence.

**Mr. Burning**

feminism has always really been about inclusivity and helping all genders.

Unfortunately the message sometimes gets scrambled and the reception is often filtered.

OT Get a group of any three people and you can guarantee that one will be made the 'outsider'.

Geekdom is no different in that respect to any other named group.

People are imperfect - thank goodness.

**Vermis**

"Geeks are too comfortable in their victimhood, but there are plenty of new tv dramas on tv, and Black Panther needs a movie, so gaming feminism for all."

Purple monkey dishwasher.

**Goliath**

Yonan wrote:
Can you point to any examples of minorities being ridiculed on dakka for their taking part in our hobby? I've never seen it. That said, I've been here a little longer than you, perhaps those who have been here a lot longer could chime in.

Emma Watsons recent speech at the UN was amazing tbh. Feminism that I'd happily stand beside - I highly recommend watching that video.

You know what I find amusing about the internet's acceptance of Watson's speech on feminism? A couple of weeks ago, those same people that are now supporting her were really upset that nude photos of her hadn't been leaked with the rest of them. But now, because it suits the argument, it's all about respect and treating people decently and 'yay feminism'. (Obviously I'm not suggesting that everyone is like this, or even a majority is, but it is occurring in places like reddit)

Anyhow, I don't have any examples of minorities being ridiculed, but I do have an example of someone wishing that the Sony Hack a few years ago led to large scale credit card fraud and that PS3 gamers had their money stolen because they deserve it due to consoles causing dodgy PC ports, which I'd say is pretty hateful and possibly worse than if it were just minorities, because it's hating *everyone*, whereas if he were hating minorities he'd just be written off as a racist. That same poster is now busy popping into the VG forum thread on women in games to insist that nothing is wrong, and so why should we do anything? Yay, Vitriol!

**H.B.M.C.**

Those same people huh?

**Yonan**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Those same people huh?

Exactly what I was going to say.

Maybe they're referring to the 4chan "emma talks about feminism, we post her nudes". 4chan however has been cleaned out by moot and is now "anti-gamergate" with gamergate threads completely banned as Moot tries to rebrand 4chan as edgy but safe populated by mods from his new group of friends... I'm sure you can guess the type of people they are.

**Steve steveson**

The big problem that this fails to address, though, is that many "geeks" and "nerds" have suffered and been bullied both for who they are and what they do. Oddly enough a group that has a large number of people who have suffered from bullying and social exclusion tend to fear these same things and feel victimized when people attack them.

Also:

Maybe “Game of Thrones” fans will recognize that the show’s essence will survive even with fewer naked, threatened women on screen

That shows the essence of what upsets people. Someone has not read the source book and wants to change the world it is based on for an ideal. You go telling people what they should and should not do without knowing the vision behind it, of course they will be upset. Especially when your view (as shown by others here) is biased in ignoring everything that dose not fit.

**ZebioLizard2**

Isn't this one of those articles that came out in Gamergate's wake to try and divide people?