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“When the Allfather sired His pups,’ said the priest, ‘He gave each one of them a different wyrd. Each one has a different life to make. One to be the heir to the Emperor’s throne. One to fortify the defences of the Imperium. One to guard the hearth. One to watch the distant perimeter. One to command the armies. One to control intelligences. You see, skjald? You see how simple it is?’
Hawser tried to make his nodded reply obvious through the vibration shaking him.
‘So what is the Wolf King’s wyrd, Heoroth Longfang?’ he asked. ‘What life did the Allfather choose for him?’
‘Executioner,’ replied the old Wolf.”

Excerpt From: Dan Abnett. “Prospero Burns.” iBooks.

So, the Emperor bred himself some sons. Twenty, in fact. And there is a great deal in the Horus Heresy series to indicate that these sons were all part of a master plan to conquer the galaxy and then rule it afterwards. Of course, not all the sons would necessarily survive. Now, of course events transpired such that the 20 sons were stolen away and spread throughout the galaxy, where their various experiences shaped and molded their character and mentality. Some of these experiences were especially harmful--Mortarion and Angron and Curze spring to mind--while others were raised in loving homes, treated as sons, such as Guilliman and Vulkan.

But what was their intended purpose? What role were they supposed to play in the galactic scheme that never materialized? If we could reduce each Primarch to one function or one aspect of the Emperor's character, as Dan Abnett (or the old Wolf in the story) did above, what would it be?

Here's my attempt at getting a start by identifying the five other Primarchs described above:

1st Legion: Lion el'Jonson Purpose: Command the armies Aspect of the Emperor's Character: Strategic ability
2nd Legion
3rd Legion
4th Legion
5th Legion: Jaghatai Khan Purpose: To watch the distant perimeter. Aspect of the Emperor's Character: Quiet vigilance
6th Legion: Leman Russ Purpose: The Emperor's executioner Aspect of the Emperor's Character: Wrath
7th Legion: Rogal Dorn Purpose: Fortify the defenses of the Imperium Aspect of the Emperor's Character: Architecture?
8th Legion
9th Legion
10th Legion
11th Legion
12th Legion
13th Legion
14th Legion
15th Legion
16th Legion
17th Legion
18th Legion: Vulkan Purpose: Fortify the Hearth. Aspect of the Emperor's Character: Eternal life, courage
19th Legion
20th Legion: Alpharius/Omegon Purpose: Gather intelligence Aspect of the Emperor's Character: Secrecy

So, what do you think? Do you agree with my choices for the five listed in the book extract?

As a different question, are there mirror images, especially in the "traitor vs loyalist" sense? (e.g. Alpharius and Corax? Or Perturabo and Dorn? Angron and Russ? Vulkan and Mortarion?) In other words, did the Emperor build in redundancy--in case one was killed?

What about the two Lost Legions? Could an "Aspect of the Emperor's character" be "Cowardice?" or "Mercy?" Is that why they were removed?

I believe that Magnus was ment to sit on the golden throne, psychic power and all... But I cant find the source right now.

Horus's character was (I think) charisma/natural leadership, Corax's role was infiltration/stealth (whereas Alpharius/Omegon is infiltration/disguise)...
Another curious thing (found in Horus Rising) is a memory of the Warmaster remembering when the Emperor said he made each primarch for each zodiac sign (they apparently go from 12 to 20 in the next 38k years )...
And it's said zodiac and character are related... so... Horus - sagittarius (said in the book), Alpharius/Omegon - gemini(duplicity, the "confusion camouflage/I am Alpharius thing), El'jonson - lion (lions have a strategic way of hunting)... I'd speculate a new sign: Russ - wolf (ok it was easy :p)
It would be interesting to chart the primarch with each possible roles, characters/quirks, signs and drawbacks (i.e. Horus-hubris, Lorgar-zealotry...)

Before anyone goes down the road of making Corax out to be stealthy like the Alpha Legion. Lorgar has a revelation in First Heretic that Corax was certainly the Emperor's Wrath made flesh. You could make a point for some duality in that with Kurze, though the Night Haunter seems a bit more vengeful than the Raven.

3rd Legion - Fulgrim - Art and Perfection
13th Legion - Guiliman - Administration and Ruling

Those 2 are pretty clear which aspect they represent.

It's heavily hinted that post-crusade, Magnus was essentially going to be locked into the Golden Throne.

It's in A Thousand Sons.

We don't and will never know what purpose Angron might have been designed for, because whatever he might have been, the butcher's nails comprehensively screwed it up. The main character traits you see (other than lobotomy-machine induced anger) is that he's both extremely loyal to the people he gives a damn about* and extremely honest.

* And no, that doesn't and never did include the Emperor.



The whole Zodiac thing is an issue because (obviously) a classic zodiac has 12 signs. .

The ones you know...:

Aries
Taurus
Gemini
Cancer
Leo - If can't get this one.....
Virgo
Libra
Scorpius
Sagittarius - Horus, by his own admission
Capricornus
Aquarius
Pisces

However, the full list of astrological signs is Twenty-One. Which....(if you count a specific one twice) is a lot more useful

...And the ones you maybe didn't:
Ophiuchus (A warrior wrestling a serpent)
Corvus
Crater (The Cup)
Hydra
Orion
Pegasus
Scutum (The Shield)
Sextans (The Sextant)


That looks a much more interesting list. Instantly, the signs of Corvus and Hydra jump off the list at you, but Orion the Hunter, and Pegasus the swift steed suggest ideas too.

Angron represents his anger, but he did get a load of implants that helped send him man if I'm not mistaken, so we don't really know how angry he was supposed to be.

Magnus represents his psychic ability.

Never been sure how Lorgar fits in to this sort of theory. Perhaps it represents his vanity, which the Emperor was able to keep it check when it was his own, but not now that its manifest in another.

to me this is both a mix of purpose and what they represented. i think it's to hard to single out an issue or purpose to one legion. each legion seemed to be a mixture of things

Kurze- justice, although his obvious mental health issues steered him the other way it seems the night lords were the imperiums justice, the ones to do the dirty work and deliver the imperiums justice

gulliman- civilisation, adminastration seems to be his thing which is in a way the heart of civilisation

Mortarion- endurance, what i mean by this is something to rally around , a true bulkwark against the dark

Angron-martial pride

Lorgar-spiritualism/soul- he seemed to embody loyalty and and the spiritual heart of the imperium (although misguided)

alpharius/omegon- inteligence

As a different question, are there mirror images, especially in the "traitor vs loyalist" sense? (e.g. Alpharius and Corax? Or Perturabo and Dorn? Angron and Russ? Vulkan and Mortarion?) In other words, did the Emperor build in redundancy--in case one was killed?

Interesting that there does seem to be some redundancies, though I'm wondering if that's just more a product of the IRL 40K design when they were just throwing the HH together and deciding each side needed "balance" so they had similar Primarchs for each side.

That's probably what makes matching all this up so difficult: the Primarchs were originally not meant to fill particular roles or embody much of anything other than "Legendary Homeric Heroes" in the 40K setting, now they're trying to shoehorn them into fluff they weren't really designed well to fill.

Anyway, that shouldn't stop us from trying!

In some ways I'd say you're right Coldstream, there is an element of that, but I think even from the start the characters were designed to fit different roles and represent different ideals. Perhaps not as definitively as we'd like to think, and perhaps not as direct aspects of the Emperor's personality.

Lion El'Johnson: Embodies the Emperor's strategy and mind for war, intended as a leader of the armies.

II: ?

Fulgrim: Embodies the aspect of the Emperor as an inspirational role model and perfect being, meant to lead humans in their transcendance above basic instincts (art and culture, things said to seperate us from animals).

Perturabo: Embodies the Emperor as a builder, architect of human civilisation and the Imperium, designed to build the homes and theatres and cities the common folk would live in.

Jaghati Khan: Embodies the wisdom of the Emperor, the honour and bonds of martial code for humanity to follow. Xmost likely designed to be a wise elder that gives advice and spiritual guidance.

Leman Russ: Embodies the Emperor as fighting for the underdog (no pun intended), protecting from the other, unjust tyrannies in history and brotherhood and bonding in battle. Russ was supposed to be the man on the ground, but his role was also altered by his upbringing with animals into one of a leader, an Alpha Wolf. One of the pack but forever apart by duty. He was a soldier but one that leads.

Rogal Dorn: architect, defence minister, paragon of nobility. He embodies the Emperor as the truth, someone to admire and look up to.

Kurze: Embodies the Emperor as a bringer of justice, and was likely intended to be some sort of legal system leader. Obviously his unbringing warped that significantly.

Sanguinius: Embodies the Emperor as a noble and righteous being and leader and the only one that should lead humanity, both by his spirit and his coincidential mutation. His role was one as Paragon too, but also a reminder of how far removed the Emperor is from everyone.

Ferrus Manus: Embodies the Emperor as a creator (of various cultures and religions, the Imperium, not the universe), but also his unstoppable drive to save humanity. He was likely designed to take bridge the gap between the Mechanicum and the Imperium and head the Mechanicum eventually, placing it in the Emperor'a control, which it had avoided until now.

XI: ?

Angron: Embodies the Emperor's fury and weaknesses as a non-divine being. Hard to say his design because of the Nails just changing everything into "Hurr, Angry!"

Guilliman: Embodies the Emperor as a governor, as a philospher and his goal of building a lasting Empire. His role was likely one for governance and economy after the Crusade.

Mortarion: Embodies the Emperor's resilience and intolerance to false rulers/tyrants. He was probably a General.

Magnus: Embodies his psychic powers and was intended to keep the Webway stable so the Emperor could hold back Chaos and maybe destroy it.

Horus: Embodies the Emperor's charisma and connection with the common soldier, intended as a Regent and successor.

Lorgar: Embodies the Emperor physically and somewhat psychically, representing the Emperor's attempts to set up religions to suck Chaos' power and also man's need to worship. He was likely intended as head of the Atheist and religious policy stuff.

Vulkan: Embodies the Emperor's common humanity and immortality. Intended as an ambassador to the men and women living in the Imperium and also as a symbol of the human race's refusal to surrender or die.

Corax: Embodies the Emperor as a freer of slaves and oppression, and also of his time spent hidden among the race over Millennia.

Alpharius and Omegon: Represents his duality as both leader and mortal, and also the darker side of him that will do anything to achieve his goals, even wait 10,000 years for his plans. Probably intended to be the modern Inquisition but more moderate.

 Deadshot wrote:
Lion El'Johnson: Embodies the Emperor's strategy and mind for war, intended as a leader of the armies.

II: ?

Fulgrim: Embodies the aspect of the Emperor as an inspirational role model and perfect being, meant to lead humans in their transcendance above basic instincts (art and culture, things said to seperate us from animals).

Perturabo: Embodies the Emperor as a builder, architect of human civilisation and the Imperium, designed to build the homes and theatres and cities the common folk would live in.

Jaghati Khan: Embodies the wisdom of the Emperor, the honour and bonds of martial code for humanity to follow. Xmost likely designed to be a wise elder that gives advice and spiritual guidance.

Leman Russ: Embodies the Emperor as fighting for the underdog (no pun intended), protecting from the other, unjust tyrannies in history and brotherhood and bonding in battle. Russ was supposed to be the man on the ground, but his role was also altered by his upbringing with animals into one of a leader, an Alpha Wolf. One of the pack but forever apart by duty. He was a soldier but one that leads.

Rogal Dorn: architect, defence minister, paragon of nobility. He embodies the Emperor as the truth, someone to admire and look up to.

Kurze: Embodies the Emperor as a bringer of justice, and was likely intended to be some sort of legal system leader. Obviously his unbringing warped that significantly.

Sanguinius: Embodies the Emperor as a noble and righteous being and leader and the only one that should lead humanity, both by his spirit and his coincidential mutation. His role was one as Paragon too, but also a reminder of how far removed the Emperor is from everyone.

Ferrus Manus: Embodies the Emperor as a creator (of various cultures and religions, the Imperium, not the universe), but also his unstoppable drive to save humanity. He was likely designed to take bridge the gap between the Mechanicum and the Imperium and head the Mechanicum eventually, placing it in the Emperor'a control, which it had avoided until now.

XI: ?

Angron: Embodies the Emperor's fury and weaknesses as a non-divine being. Hard to say his design because of the Nails just changing everything into "Hurr, Angry!"

Guilliman: Embodies the Emperor as a governor, as a philospher and his goal of building a lasting Empire. His role was likely one for governance and economy after the Crusade.

Mortarion: Embodies the Emperor's resilience and intolerance to false rulers/tyrants. He was probably a General.

Magnus: Embodies his psychic powers and was intended to keep the Webway stable so the Emperor could hold back Chaos and maybe destroy it.

Horus: Embodies the Emperor's charisma and connection with the common soldier, intended as a Regent and successor.

Lorgar: Embodies the Emperor physically and somewhat psychically, representing the Emperor's attempts to set up religions to suck Chaos' power and also man's need to worship. He was likely intended as head of the Atheist and religious policy stuff.

Vulkan: Embodies the Emperor's common humanity and immortality. Intended as an ambassador to the men and women living in the Imperium and also as a symbol of the human race's refusal to surrender or die.

Corax: Embodies the Emperor as a freer of slaves and oppression, and also of his time spent hidden among the race over Millennia.

Alpharius and Omegon: Represents his duality as both leader and mortal, and also the darker side of him that will do anything to achieve his goals, even wait 10,000 years for his plans. Probably intended to be the modern Inquisition but more moderate.

Interesting. I wonder if we could posit that Primarch II or XI were meant to embody The Emperor's Empathy, the ability to understand the emotions and desires of his sons and followers. However....this empathy/emotional intelligence was removed/missing from the Emperor and his sons (illustrated by the destruction of the corresponding Primarch).

This might explain why the Emperor seemed so oblivious to the desires of the Primarchs like Lorgar, Angron, Perturabo, etc...and why so many of his decisions just seemed mind-bogglingly stupid. He just couldn't understand the situation on an emotional level any more.

 Coldstream wrote:

As a different question, are there mirror images, especially in the "traitor vs loyalist" sense? (e.g. Alpharius and Corax? Or Perturabo and Dorn? Angron and Russ? Vulkan and Mortarion?) In other words, did the Emperor build in redundancy--in case one was killed?

Interesting that there does seem to be some redundancies, though I'm wondering if that's just more a product of the IRL 40K design when they were just throwing the HH together and deciding each side needed "balance" so they had similar Primarchs for each side.

That's probably what makes matching all this up so difficult: the Primarchs were originally not meant to fill particular roles or embody much of anything other than "Legendary Homeric Heroes" in the 40K setting, now they're trying to shoehorn them into fluff they weren't really designed well to fill.

Anyway, that shouldn't stop us from trying!

^ This.

What we're trying to do (and what GW is trying to do) is force characters that we already know rather a lot about into new roles and designs, all created by a team of authors rather than a small group of designers hashing out a unified vision. So there's going to be a lot of inconsistencies, overlap and "well, not quite..." when it comes to something like this.

Awesome discussion from my viewpoint--thanks to all of you for putting in the time and thought (and typing, @deadshot!). I totally agree that the original game background did not include the level of detailed character development that is being built in the HH novels (or on this thread) and I am sure that the various authors are making it up as they go. However, I have seen a clear effort (e.g. in "Angel Exterminatus") to create the "dual nature" contrast in some of the "Traitor" Primarchs such as Perturabo. It is in that book that we discover his ability to build, and not only to destroy. We see a similar strain with The Khan in "Scars" when he is forced to choose between his loyalty to the Emperor and his loyalty to Horus. What pleases me is the choice that is presented to these Primarchs (Magnus still evidently had not made up his mind when he materialized and "spoke" with Lorgar before the Shadow War began), and the expansion of the discussion of why they chose as they did.

I really like some of the ideas suggested here, especially the "Ferrus Manus as link to the Mechanicum." Thanks also for the reminder of the signs of the Zodiac, @Kerrathyr, and the expanded 21-sign version, @locarno. That is awesome, and really sparks the imagination. In one of the books, Ferrus Manus has fallen down inside some chasm, and he sees statues with different zodiac-like faces (none on 2 statues, of course...) and these hearken to Greek mythology somewhat--Medusa head, etc. So, I am sure the original background was inspired by these legends to at least some degree, even if it is jumbled together.

I also like @Coldstream's suggestion that empathy (or COMMUNICATION--I think the Emperor's main failing is not being honest and clear with his sons, especially Horus, but also Magnus, obviously) is the trait that was expunged from the 2nd and 11th legions. I certainly think that the inscrutability (and seeming cold indifference) of some of the Emperor's actions resulted in the marginalization and discouragement of many of the "Traitors" such as Lorgar, Mortarion, and Angron.

I"m fairly confident that "fortify the hearth" is just wolf-speak for Terra and the Imperial Palace.

The primarchs were created entirely without the intention of creating space marines. The Emperor only came up with Space Marines after the primarchs had been lost. I think this means you have to be careful when using the legions as clues.

Just like Guilliman would have administered an effective empire with or without space marines and Magnus would have sat on the Golden Throne with or without the Thousand Sons, all the primarchs were supposed to be responsible for segments of society, not separate military forces.

I think Corax was an advocate for the oppressed, like a labor leader. Ofc, some credit Mortarion with some of this role.

Sanguinius and Kurze were complementary seers, one of them with visions of the best future and one with visions of the worst.

Certainly Alpharius controlled huge intelligence networks without marines being necessary.

pelicaniforce wrote:
I"m fairly confident that "fortify the hearth" is just wolf-speak for Terra and the Imperial Palace.

The primarchs were created entirely without the intention of creating space marines. The Emperor only came up with Space Marines after the primarchs had been lost. I think this means you have to be careful when using the legions as clues.

Just like Guilliman would have administered an effective empire with or without space marines and Magnus would have sat on the Golden Throne with or without the Thousand Sons, all the primarchs were supposed to be responsible for segments of society, not separate military forces.

I think Corax was an advocate for the oppressed, like a labor leader. Ofc, some credit Mortarion with some of this role.

Sanguinius and Kurze were complementary seers, one of them with visions of the best future and one with visions of the worst.

Certainly Alpharius controlled huge intelligence networks without marines being necessary.

Nice! I hadn't thought of the "Seer" aspect at all. Sanguinius is less developed as a character than Kurze at the moment, so I hope to learn more about him (especially as a BA player) and his visions.

You don't think the Primarchs were supposed to LEAD Legions, though? I mean, they are all super geniuses, all gigantic and physically powerful, all incredibly tough. They're warrior gods, right? So surely all of them were supposed to lead armies in re-conquering the galaxy, a necessary prerequisite for ruling it.

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:

I also like @Coldstream's suggestion that empathy (or COMMUNICATION--I think the Emperor's main failing is not being honest and clear with his sons, especially Horus, but also Magnus, obviously) is the trait that was expunged from the 2nd and 11th legions. I certainly think that the inscrutability (and seeming cold indifference) of some of the Emperor's actions resulted in the marginalization and discouragement of many of the "Traitors" such as Lorgar, Mortarion, and Angron.

Wasn't it only the Nurgle influenced corruption of the Death Guard that turned Mortarion to Chaos, not his own direct choice. I always understood it that he was a victim of circumstance, like Magnus, though I might have to go back and read up there?

Instead of Magnus just representing the Emperor's psychic powers, I prefer to think that he embodies both the hubris and self sacrificial parts of the Emperor. Magnus is willing to do anything to save his sons from the flesh change and eventually wants to sacrifice his own world, arguably the only place he has ever been accepted and all those he loves, including himself, to prevent his father and brothers from suffering more. Alas he has the Emperor's hubris, his pride. He acts much like the Emperor, making decisions based solely on his own intuition and fails to understand the human component even within himself, ultimately fighting back against the Space Wolves instead of seeing his noble vision through to the end.

I like to think has others do that the II and XI legions had to do with empathy, and perhaps a flip side of apathy resulting in brutality. One Primarch was all too aware of the terrible cost of the Imperium and fought against it, the other simply did not care about others and was a cold hearted soldier. Lacking righteous anger or even a lust for battle, he coldly committed atrocities that the Emperor could not ignore. Hmm, sounds like a good idea to explore in a Dark Heresy Ordos Chronos campaign...

 Inca wrote:


Wasn't it only the Nurgle influenced corruption of the Death Guard that turned Mortarion to Chaos, not his own direct choice. I always understood it that he was a victim of circumstance, like Magnus, though I might have to go back and read up there?

Mortarion had already thrown his lot in with Horus and was on his way to the Siege of Terra when he and the Death Guard were trapped in the Warp and fully fell to Nurgle. You can argue whether Mortarion was already turned to Chaos by his treason of the Emperor (and maybe didn't even know it yet) or not but I'd say Mortarion made a clear choice which side he wanted to back...and it wasn't the Emperor.

I like Deadshot's list.

I've often wondered if Angron was supposed to embody the camaraderie between soldiers and friends, which the nails had all but destroyed. You can see glimmers of this in how he viewed (and was viewed) by his fellow gladiators, and the times he feasted and celebrated with the World Eaters during his novel.

Once the galaxy was brought to heel I think the primarchs were intended to form a Senate from which the IoM would be ruled so big E could challenge chaos. Each balancing the others opinions. Instead you got the High Lords of Terra.

NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Once the galaxy was brought to heel I think the primarchs were intended to form a Senate from which the IoM would be ruled so big E could challenge chaos. Each balancing the others opinions. Instead you got the High Lords of Terra.

With that taken in light of IRL politicians, the characters like Angron and Curze suddenly make way more sense.

pantheralegionnaire wrote:

pelicaniforce wrote:
The primarchs were created entirely without the intention of creating space marines. The Emperor only came up with Space Marines after the primarchs had been lost. I think this means you have to be careful when using the legions as clues.

Just like Guilliman would have administered an effective empire with or without space marines and Magnus would have sat on the Golden Throne with or without the Thousand Sons, all the primarchs were supposed to be responsible for segments of society, not separate military forces.

I think Corax was an advocate for the oppressed, like a labor leader. Ofc, some credit Mortarion with some of this role.

Sanguinius and Kurze were complementary seers, one of them with visions of the best future and one with visions of the worst.

Certainly Alpharius controlled huge intelligence networks without marines being necessary.

Nice! I hadn't thought of the "Seer" aspect at all. Sanguinius is less developed as a character than Kurze at the moment, so I hope to learn more about him (especially as a BA player) and his visions.

You don't think the Primarchs were supposed to LEAD Legions, though? I mean, they are all super geniuses, all gigantic and physically powerful, all incredibly tough. They're warrior gods, right? So surely all of them were supposed to lead armies in re-conquering the galaxy, a necessary prerequisite for ruling it.

No I don't think so. How much more effective would the Imperium's intelligence be if Alpharius had grown up on Terra and led the whole Imperium's intelligence service, instead of having his own legion? Take that as an example, or Dorn and Perturabo building fortresses. When the led legions, there was very little way for the legions' skills to leak out and permeate all of the society. If they had all grown up on Terra, everyone would have been led by the primarchs and everyone would have learned from them, not just the legions. If Perturabo had been in charge of security and fortification, if Guilliman had been in charge of education and civil planning, if Lorgar had been in charge of propaganda? Did Magnus need a legion so that he would be able to sit on the throne?

No, when the Emperor created the primarchs he didn't have a plan to create legions for them. It says in The Lost and the Damned: "The Emperor had lost the Primarchs... The Primarchs could not be recreated and even if this were possible there was not time to do it... The Emperor evolved another plan. Using genetic material which had been imprinted from the Primarchs... some of their qualities could be reproduced as discrete biological organs. By implanting these organs into a young growing body... the first Space Marine Chapters were founded. "

Coldstream wrote:

 Inca wrote:


Wasn't it only the Nurgle influenced corruption of the Death Guard that turned Mortarion to Chaos, not his own direct choice. I always understood it that he was a victim of circumstance, like Magnus, though I might have to go back and read up there?

Mortarion had already thrown his lot in with Horus and was on his way to the Siege of Terra when he and the Death Guard were trapped in the Warp and fully fell to Nurgle. You can argue whether Mortarion was already turned to Chaos by his treason of the Emperor (and maybe didn't even know it yet) or not but I'd say Mortarion made a clear choice which side he wanted to back...and it wasn't the Emperor.

So Mortarion was already a traitor against the Emperor before he "turned" to Chaos. The part where you suggest Mortarion was already turned to Chaos and didn't even know it yet could mean that there doesn't have to a specific time for turning to Chaos.

I think it possible that some of the primarchs were always going to turn to chaos. A lot of people say that the Night Lords never turned to Chaos, or that they use Chaos but don't worship or obey it. In a lot of ways, they have not changed at all from when they were loyalists. When exactly did they become chaotic, with daemon princes and dark rituals? I think they always were, I think that the World Eaters didn't change at all when they found out about Khorne worship, and I think that while Magnus was supposedly forced into accepting Tzeentch, that his ideology was always Tzeentchian and he just didn't know or admit it.

pelicaniforce wrote:


So Mortarion was already a traitor against the Emperor before he "turned" to Chaos. The part where you suggest Mortarion was already turned to Chaos and didn't even know it yet could mean that there doesn't have to a specific time for turning to Chaos.

I think it possible that some of the primarchs were always going to turn to chaos. A lot of people say that the Night Lords never turned to Chaos, or that they use Chaos but don't worship or obey it. In a lot of ways, they have not changed at all from when they were loyalists. When exactly did they become chaotic, with daemon princes and dark rituals? I think they always were, I think that the World Eaters didn't change at all when they found out about Khorne worship, and I think that while Magnus was supposedly forced into accepting Tzeentch, that his ideology was always Tzeentchian and he just didn't know or admit it.

Personally, I think that turning to Chaos always has to involve a willing choice, and at some point, everyone has the free will to ultimately choose to side with Chaos or not. Granted, they may have been tempted and moving down the path towards full blown Chaos, knowingly in the cases of Erebus and Typhon, or unknowingly like Magnus. Even at the end, Magnus could have chosen not to side with Chaos and died with Tizca for example. Mortarion and the Death Guard chose to betray the Emperor, chose to listen to Typhon and eventually chose to try to end their suffering by allying with Nurgle (not that ending up a pus-filled Plague Marine is really any better in the end.)

You could say Angron really didn't have a choice thanks to the Butcher's Nails overriding what he would otherwise have been (like someone on PCP not being able to make rational choices), or Kurze who seemed more schizophrenic than anything may not have had the freedom others had to choose Chaos or not.

But it's having that freedom to choose the fall to Chaos that makes the choices of Horus and the other Primarchs and the entire Heresy so tragic.

And why Fulgrim's fluff is so, so disappointing...."This alien sword made me do it....and did I mention the painting?"

Honestly I never liked the idea of the "aspect of the Emperor" for the primarchs. It shouldn't be surprising that you will see certain traits of the Emperor in each of his "sons", but to label each of them with a specific and unique facet of the Emperor's personality/soul/whatever just seemed silly to me.

all the primarchs were twisted creations compared to the Big Es intentions, some more so then others IE guilleman vs angron

chaos messed with them all, sent them all flying apart, *CHANGING* them physically as well as from the experience of coming to age on the various worlds they live in.



how far each is from how the emperor intended is up for debate, but he didnt intend for a lot of things it would seem the plan didnt go nearly as expected.

 easysauce wrote:
all the primarchs were twisted creations compared to the Big Es intentions, some more so then others IE guilleman vs angron

chaos messed with them all, sent them all flying apart, *CHANGING* them physically as well as from the experience of coming to age on the various worlds they live in.



how far each is from how the emperor intended is up for debate, but he didnt intend for a lot of things it would seem the plan didnt go nearly as expected.

I totally concur. I mean, it is pretty obvious that the Primarchs are the key to the Emperor's plan, which is why they are scattered throughout the galaxy. I really like the vision of them all growing up on Terra, under the Emperor's guidance, and where their natural competition as brothers would be controlled. Clearly, the changes that took place had worse effects on some more than others. Similarly the manner in which they were "found" and "rescued" by the Emperor matters. Angron was pulled away from his tragic death in rebellion, and Mortarion was similarly denied the fulfillment of saving his planet's population. This frustration clearly plays into their later decisions to join in the rebellion. But certainly it was not the way "it was supposed to be" and it is disappointing that the Emperor did not do a better job of managing this failure.

It can't be a coincidence that so little of the Emperor's mind and perspective has been revealed thus far in the HH--he barely makes an appearance, and then only as a distant, disappointed, authoritarian figure for the most part. It's clear that he doesn't trust all the Primarchs enough to "let them in on" his plans (e.g. building the Golden Throne, accessing safer paths through space, CHAOS GODS...), and he never communicates sufficiently well. In "The Last Church" you get a decent (though disguised and hidden) look at him, and he makes appearances at the Council of Nikaea (where he's mostly a distant glowing entity, again not communicating clearly to anyone) and interacts with Magnus in "Thousand Sons"...but too late.

My initial frustration with the first books in the HH series was how they glossed over some of the choices to turn in rebellion, which is what is most compelling to me about the series. Mortarion (who has been discussed in this thread) was especially so. Basically, he seems to turn because he feels marginalized and ignored. Fluff in the Forge World HH books, and recent glimpses of him in "White Scars" has done a decent job of bulking this out. But there's still a lot hidden.

For that I am grateful the writers are taking time to explore the dual nature of these Primarchs, and I am sure we will eventually get a book (or books?) about the Emperor, but they are clearly leading us along, revealing only hints as they go. We all know the "basic story" but I am glad they are increasing the depth of the characters and exploring their nature. It's unnecessary for the game of Warhammer 40k, but it makes for a richer universe.

With the exception of Magnus, mortarion, vulkan and possibly russ, all of the other's flaws and strengths were a result of their upbringing, not genetics. and the argument could be made that their upbringings made them reflections of each other because the are in fact reflections of the best and worst of humanity. The fact that they fill different roles and whatnot could be seen in hind sight but probably were not intentional by the Emperor. However the fact that they wound up on worlds that would shape them into the perfect pieces for the heresy to unfold really points to the hand of Tzeench (read convoluted plans meant to look complicated to mask the inconsistencies brought on by subsequent generations retconning fluff to adapt to their own specific vision of the game)

 Inca wrote:
Angron represents his anger, but he did get a load of implants that helped send him man if I'm not mistaken, so we don't really know how angry he was supposed to be.

Magnus represents his psychic ability.

Never been sure how Lorgar fits in to this sort of theory. Perhaps it represents his vanity, which the Emperor was able to keep it check when it was his own, but not now that its manifest in another.

I'm happy Angron turned out the way he did, but it is interesting to ponder the Angron who might have been.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:

 Inca wrote:
Angron represents his anger, but he did get a load of implants that helped send him man if I'm not mistaken, so we don't really know how angry he was supposed to be.

Magnus represents his psychic ability.

Never been sure how Lorgar fits in to this sort of theory. Perhaps it represents his vanity, which the Emperor was able to keep it check when it was his own, but not now that its manifest in another.

I'm happy Angron turned out the way he did, but it is interesting to ponder the Angron who might have been.

I think Angron's purpose in the fluff as an allegory is to show what passion without a cause to believe in gets you. Feral rage and barbarism resulted because Angeron no longer felt he had anything to believe in when his entire world crashed down around him when the Emperor kidnapped him on the eve of his great spartician rebellian