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Let me start by saying I'm not talking about the bog standard bolter, which I think is fine just the way it is. Boltguns in the rule book are a range of weapons most of which haven't seen an update in five editions. There's been too much codex creep over the past decade not to update these weapons at all. Unit entries are falling by the way side, especially in this 'shootier' edition, because their guns are sub standard. The weapons in question:

Bolt Pistol - Fine
Bolter - Fine
Stormbolter - Needs a little love.
Hurricane Bolter - Needs some love.
Heavy Bolter - Needs a lot of love.
Avenger Mega Bolter (Dark Angels Codex) - You poor bastard...
Avenger Bolt Cannon - Amazing

Disclaimer: I'm a Dark Angels and Chaos player, I tend to switch back and forth between armies every few months. I recently pulled out my Dark Angels Codex. I have a personal affinity for boltguns and wish I could justify using more of them in my games.

Stormbolters: I and many others out there feel that terminators need a bit of a boost and I think one of their major problems is their standard ranged weapon. Terminators are expensive resulting in small squad sizes. When I look at a 250 point unit and think about how its going to preform in the shooting phase with 8-10 S4 AP5 shots, I cringe. Stormbolters need more shots, one would be nice, two would be amazing.

Hurricane Bolters: Crusaders, Ironclads, Stromravens, given the units that hurricane bolters are mounted to I really feel like they need a bit of a boost. Having a Landraider put out 6-12 twinlinked S4 AP5 shots is, meh. Give the weapon it's own stats. As a Dark Angels player, due to the standard of devastation, my crusader puts out 24 twinlinked shots at 24" which is awesome but honestly not overpowered. Each hurricane bolter should put out between 6-12 shots at a solid 24", 6 being ok and 12 being awesome, but lets look at a compromise; S4 AP5 Assault 8 24" Twin Linked.

Heavy Bolters: I love heavy bolters, especially the belt fed devastator ones they just look awesome. In game however their down right awful. Does anyone use Heavy Bolter; Dreads, Centurions, Devastators? I built two Forgeworld, Mortis Pattern Dreadnoughts (Not contemptors) just because they look so damn cool, but I never field them. A lot of people would like to see heavy bolters get salvo, I've seen suggestions of 2/3, 2/4, 3/5, I think 2/4 or 3/5 would be good. Strength 6 would make good fix and at the very least give it one more shot. I think an assault cannon'esk profile of S6 AP4 Heavy 4 36" would make for just about all the heavy bolters short comings.

Avenger Mega Bolter: (Dark Angels only Gripe...): S6 AP4 Heavy 5 48", what the hell. Not to be confused with the Avenger Bolt Cannon S7 AP3 Heavy 7 36". This is mounted on the Dark Angels 'fighter/interceptor' and is a direct swap for a twin-linked lascannon. Which would lead some one to believe it should be the power equivalent of a twin-linked lascannon. I'm not saying it should be an Avenger Bolt Cannon, as nice as that would be, but it needs to be further in that direction.

So in conclusion, my personal suggestions:
(Conservative)
Bolt Pistol - Remains the same.
Bolter - Remains the same.
Storm Bolter - S4 AP5 Assault 3 24"
Hurricane Bolter - S4 AP5 Assault 9 24" Twin-Linked
Heavy Bolter - S5 AP4 Salvo 2/4 36"
Avenger Mega Bolter - S6 AP3 Heavy 5 36"
Avenger Bolt Cannon - Remains the same.

(Wishful thinking, as if the above wasn't....)
Bolt Pistol - Remains the same.
Bolter - Remains the same.
Storm Bolter - S4 AP5 Assault 4 24"
Hurricane Bolter - S4 AP5 Assault 12 24" Twin-Linked
Heavy Bolter - S6 AP4 Heavy 4 36"
Avenger Mega Bolter - Just merge it with the damn Bolt Cannon....
Avenger Bolt Cannon - Remains the same.

The Avenger Mega Bolter is blatantly supposed to be an Avenger Bolt Cannon, and I can only assume that the AP4 on the Mega Bolter is a typo that nobody's caught yet... personally, I think the best solution is to just drop the Nephilim entirely and call it an alternate-pattern Avenger Strike Fighter built to be piloted by a Marine.

Storm Bolters... 5 points for an extra shot at long range is how I think of them. Which is... pointless. It wasn't even worth the points (or the loss of a flamer or melta) at 3 points. Making it Assault 3 might be worthwhile... or even Assault 4, Unreliable (roll the shots one at a time, if you roll a 1 on any of them, any dice not yet rolled are lost).

Hurricane Bolters... I don't like your fix. You're losing out on four shots at long range and not gaining anything. I fail to see how it's a fix. ^^;

I like the Heavy Bolter though.

Either you or I are missing something when it comes to the hurricane bolters, and it could totally be me...

Currently a hurricane bolter puts out 3 shots @ 24" and 6 shots @ 12".

I think it should simply be 9 shots at @ 24".

Its own unique profile, make the whole a bit more then the sum of its parts. The result would be a crusader putting out 18 shots @ 24". Going back to a crusader with a 'Dakka Banner', they put out 24 shots @ 24", which while awesome doesn't justify the cost of the 165 points (minimum) of occupants.

Ah, nope, the problem is me. Because Hurricanes always come in pairs, I was thinking 6 or 12.

I get ya, just have to account for those Ironclads, that no one ever takes with the hurricane bolter arm because everything said above.

I really want to know who looks at the entry and think, "Wow! 12 bolter shots, thats awesome!" When your talking about a 250 point tank.

Someone who was looking at its ability to deliver eight assault terminator straight into combat.

Just some input on Storm Bolters;
I've played a couple of games where they use this profile, and it seems good so far. Maybe 1 or 2 pts more expensive, but I'll leave that to the community to decide

R: 24", S4, AP5, Salvo 2/4.

It IS supposed to be 2 Boltguns strapped together, right?
Just my two cents though.

They are only bolt weapons at the end of the day, if bolt weapons become that epic then Tau pulse weapons would also have to get ridiculously powerful - burst cannons being heavy 6 now for example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, buffing storm bolters would make GKs even more cheesy (becoming Eldar level cheese).

Actually, given their effects, I did have this idea, to be applied to all bolt weapons:

Delayed Charge: Due to the fusing causing bolts to detonate inside the target, any wound inflicted by a Bolt weapon (except those firing special ammunition) inflicts 2 wounds instead of 1.

I do object to the idea of "only" bolt weapons though. Bolters are rare, special and holy artifacts. If you want 'only' a gun, you're looking as las and autoguns.

Storm bolters being heavy 4 or salvo 2/4 seems fair enough

Storm Bolters as heavy weapons? That's a complete reversal, the whole point of them is that they fire so many bullets you don't have to aim.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Actually, given their effects, I did have this idea, to be applied to all bolt weapons:

Delayed Charge: Due to the fusing causing bolts to detonate inside the target, any wound inflicted by a Bolt weapon (except those firing special ammunition) inflicts 2 wounds instead of 1.

I do object to the idea of "only" bolt weapons though. Bolters are rare, special and holy artifacts. If you want 'only' a gun, you're looking as las and autoguns.

And thus making any T4, 2 wound, 3+ save model (Crisis suits, Tyranid warriors) pretty much useless as now they get instakilled by bolter wounds 1/3 of the time.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Storm Bolters as heavy weapons? That's a complete reversal, the whole point of them is that they fire so many bullets you don't have to aim.

Also, aren't Storm Bolter's assault weapons? Isn't having the option to assault after firing them part of their point? Meaning, switching them to something like Salvo or Heavy would completely change how they're being used. At most, I'd say they deserve either an Assault2 + Twin-linked or Assault3 classification.

As for Heavy Bolters being S6, AP4, Salvo2/4; again I have to disagree. For starters, the name "Heavy Bolter" ought to tell you all you need to know about its weapon type. It should remain as a heavy weapon. Otherwise, it should be renamed "Salvo Bolter" or something. As for S6, that would be a touch too potent against armies like the Imperial Guard due to causing instant death to T3 and below. Given how common they are, I feel that the Heavy Bolter is fine how it currently is.

Moreover, if power creep is of concern, shouldn't the weakest weapons in the game (i.e. Autoguns, Laspistols, etc) be the ones be the first in need of a buff?

You say that, but Heavy Flamers are Assault weapons.

And Assault Cannons are Heavy weapons.

I'm going with the fluff with storm bolters and heavy 4, the person has to stop and brace to fight the recoil, in terminator arnoir this isn't an issue

I'd go salvo over heavy for stormbolters for general game purposes. If you really wanted to make them in line with the fluff you'ld have to say something like Heavy for S3 models and Salvo for S4 models.

If you really wanted them in line with the fluff, you'd have to say they were only usable by models with Power Armour, or failing that S4 or greater, lol.

Maybe salvo should just be boltgun weapon type:

Bolt Pistol - S4 AP5 12" Pistol
Bolter - S4 AP5 24" Salvo 1/2
Storm Bolter - S4 AP5 24" Salvo 2/4
Hurricane Bolter - S4 AP5 24" Salvo 6/12 (Remove Twin-linked)
Heavy Bolter - S5 AP4 36" Salvo 3/5
Avenger Mega Bolter - S6 AP3 36" Salvo 4/6

qu

It IS supposed to be 2 Boltguns strapped together, right?
Just my two cents though.

two lascannons strapped together are not salvo, two big shootas strapped together are not salvo. Two Chaos bolt guns strapped together are not salvo.

Formosa wrote:I'm going with the fluff with storm bolters and heavy 4, the person has to stop and brace to fight the recoil, in terminator arnoir this isn't an issue

My goal in his game is to field models including PA captain with storm bolter and dominions with storm bolters. Heavy 4 is not the worst from a narrative perspective because nothing is "weak," but fielding the models that I like in a competitive context is going to be really hard with heavy 4 Bolters.

How many points would you pay for a heavy 4 s4 gun on a pa captain? How many shots would a gun have to be before you paid any number of points at all for an s4 heavy weapon on your PA character?

Corny wrote:Maybe salvo should just be boltgun weapon type:

Bolter - S4 AP5 24" Salvo 1/2

Are you sure?
?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
If you really wanted them in line with the fluff, you'd have to say they were only usable by models with Power Armour, or failing that S4 or greater, lol.

Now this is kind of an idea.

Nope, totally not sure, just a spur of the moment idea. It would totally change/possibly ruin the battle field role of most bolter toting troops, but then again just brain storming. I actually still really like my original idea of:

Bolt Pistol - Remains the same.
Bolter - Remains the same.
Storm Bolter - S4 AP5 Assault 4 24"
Hurricane Bolter - S4 AP5 Assault 12 24" Twin-Linked
Heavy Bolter - S6 AP4 Heavy 4 36"
Avenger Mega Bolter - Just merge it with the damn Bolt Cannon....
Avenger Bolt Cannon - Remains the same.

Sorry but giving Heavy Bolters S6 would be terrible. You'd be insta-killing half the armies in the game. I will say that their 3 shots are a bit pathetic for a heavy machine gun. Heavy 4 might be more appropriate.

I think Storm Bolters are fine. Assault 2 makes them better than Bolters but not overpowered. Also anything they're shooting at is probably gonna get charged same turn by terminators which is pretty scary as is.

One thing I will say is the exploding bolter rounds has never been represented very well in game. You could say re-roll 1s to wound or something (re-roll all to wounds would be OP). This would represent the bolter round hitting its target and if the impact doesn't kill it, then exploding gives it another chance

pelicaniforce wrote:qu

It IS supposed to be 2 Boltguns strapped together, right?
Just my two cents though.

two lascannons strapped together are not salvo, two big shootas strapped together are not salvo. Two Chaos bolt guns strapped together are not salvo.

No, they're twin-linked lascannons and twin-linked big shootas, respectively.
Two Chaos boltguns? That's either a "Chaos" storm bolter or a twin-linked "Chaos" boltgun, which I believe they call Combi-bolters.

On topic:
I have to agree that S6 might be over kill.
Salvo could work for the HB.

If I was going to suggest just a rate of fire increase to heavy bolters I would want to bring them up to heavy 5.

As for storm bolters, chaos twin-linked bolters are suppose to be two bolters strapped together, storm bolters are suppose to be an updated design. I really feel they are woefully inadequate as a terminators standard armament. Maybe this just means they should lower the point cost of terminators, but I would rather see them become the terrifying battlefield presence their described as being. 8-10 S4 AP5 shots @ 24" doesn't scare much of anything.

In balance terms salvo seems like a great idea for storm bolters, it would be a big boost to terminators without breaking units like grey knights.

Bolt Pistol - Remains the same.
Bolter - Remains the same.
Storm Bolter - S4 AP5 Salvo 2/4 24"
Hurricane Bolter - S4 AP5 Assault 12 24"
Heavy Bolter - S5 AP4 Heavy 5 36"
Avenger Mega Bolter - Just merge it with the damn Bolt Cannon....
Avenger Bolt Cannon - Remains the same.

Chaos have Combi-Bolters (twin-linked boltguns) instead of Storm Bolters.

Kind of the prototype, really, and have (in a rather anime-ish twist) always been somewhat better than the storm bolter.

Maybe that's the answer, hah! Make Storm Bolters always twin-linked.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Chaos have Combi-Bolters (twin-linked boltguns) instead of Storm Bolters.

Kind of the prototype, really, and have (in a rather anime-ish twist) always been somewhat better than the storm bolter.

Maybe that's the answer, hah! Make Storm Bolters always twin-linked.

Ah.

I'm not too knowledgeable on my 40K fluff, I'm afraid.

So twin-linked boltguns?

"So that combi-bolter those Chaos guys have is pretty friggin' aw-"
*techmarine glare*
"awful! absolutely awful..."

Why not pull the storm rule from FFG rpg's?

Storm Bolter: S4 AP5 Assault 3, Storm.

Storm: each to hit roll of a '6' generates an additional S4AP5 wound in the wound pool.

Interesting idea, but I think twin-linking Stormbolters would be the better choice for long-term balance. It does have the upside of any BS3 model upgrading to it, to actually HIT with the twin-link, but at the same time making it so that the highest potential damage stays the same.

That "storm" rule is pretty balanced and it would make them better but not OP. Simply twin-linking them seems a bit pointless IMO as marines hit on a 3+ anyway, its not as if they're BS3 and they were designed for Astartes rather than regular humans.

I like the idea of changing up the storm bolter but i can see it raising all levels of shanagins with gk having massed access to it. Possibly make a new variant that only termis have access to?