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One other thing; just because CSM have something better than the Loyalist equivalent it doesn't make it poor design. Older things could be better than newer things, such as the AK47 is still used today, but not many armies use them but they are still powerful with large (I believe) calibre ammo.

I like how the combi-bolter is better.

SGTPozy wrote:
One other thing; just because CSM have something better than the Loyalist equivalent it doesn't make it poor design. Older things could be better than newer things, such as the AK47 is still used today, but not many armies use them but they are still powerful with large (I believe) calibre ammo.

I like how the combi-bolter is better.

7.62mm, if I remember correctly.

Most other comparable assault rifles use 5.56mm.

Though larger ammunition comes with the downside that it weighs more.

Corny wrote:
Bolter - S4 AP5 24" Salvo 1/2
Storm Bolter - S4 AP5 24" Salvo 2/4

First, I know that you have posted since this and aren't maintaining salvo on bolters. I do want to ask a question since you mentioned it. You might have noticed that salvo 1/2 bolters fire only once if you move, which is bad. Is there any reason you didn't consider salvo 2/2, or salvo 3/2?

Completely regardless of what kind of gun storm bolters are, they are twin-linked weapons. Twin-linked is really valuable for snap shots, like in overwatch or against flying creatures, and it is very useful if you somehow get Precision Shot. They can be salvo, they can be assault, they can be rapid fire, they can be heavy, but they still have to have the twin-linked rule.

Then on storm bolters, if they are on a Terminator or bike, then a salvo 2/4 storm bolter on a terminator is the same as a heavy 4 storm bolter on a terminator and the same as an assault 4 storm bolter on a terminator. So there is no reason from the terminators' standpoint for them to be salvo.

For non-TDA and non-bike models, aka models in power armor, scout armor, carapace armor, flak armor, any other armor, a salvo 2/4 storm bolter is effectively the exact same thing a bolter. Considering that storm bolters usually mean spending extra points, what you are doing is just penalizing people who want to put a storm bolter on their sergeant or their captain. There is no reason from non-terminators' standpoint for them to be salvo.

If you make Storm bolters salvo... well no more reason to have a PAGK model in existence.

That's why twin-linking would be a better idea, if they still need some love toss another shot on them after some testing.

 Quickjager wrote:
If you make Storm bolters salvo... well no more reason to have a PAGK model in existence.

That's why twin-linking would be a better idea, if they still need some love toss another shot on them after some testing.

We mathed this in the fixing Terminators thread. If a Storm Bolter was Assault 3 Tactical Marines would no longer be point-for-point tougher and shootier than Terminators.

I think bolters should get fleshbane on a 6 as well

 Quickjager wrote:
If you make Storm bolters salvo... well no more reason to have a PAGK model in existence.

That's why twin-linking would be a better idea, if they still need some love toss another shot on them after some testing.

Not everything revolves around Grey Knights and its not as if PAGKs are used often anyway.

• Bolters and bolt pistols are fine as they are.
• Storm bolters should definitely be Salvo 2/3 or 2/4. It would be good for Terminators.
• Perhaps Grey Knight storm bolters should not apply due to being their special wrist-mounted versions? At least they aren't S5 any more.
• Heavy bolters would be fine as Salvo, maybe 2/5 or 2/4? Salvo adequately represents the weapon being "set up", but they can still be fired on the move without snap-shots. This would give Tactical Squads an actual reason to take heavy bolters.

Really not sure what to do with Chaos combi-bolters, though. If Storm Bolters get a buff, they should too, but not too much. That, or they could just be made identical, but I'd prefer not.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
• Bolters and bolt pistols are fine as they are.
• Storm bolters should definitely be Salvo 2/3 or 2/4. It would be good for Terminators.
• Perhaps Grey Knight storm bolters should not apply due to being their special wrist-mounted versions? At least they aren't S5 any more.
• Heavy bolters would be fine as Salvo, maybe 2/5 or 2/4? Salvo adequately represents the weapon being "set up", but they can still be fired on the move without snap-shots. This would give Tactical Squads an actual reason to take heavy bolters.

Really not sure what to do with Chaos combi-bolters, though. If Storm Bolters get a buff, they should too, but not too much. That, or they could just be made identical, but I'd prefer not.

Storm bolters should probably be salvo 2/3 and heavy bolters 2/4 or 3/4. Probably the latter to distinguish themselves more from Storm bolters.

Grey Knights should definitely get their own lesser type.

As said earlier, combi-bolters are just two boltguns so I doubt they'd change.

I find that bolt guns are usually more dependant on who is firing them and at what, rather than anything.

Also, no one maximizes bolters, but I'll tell you what, an attack bike squad with anything more than a TL heavy Bolter is going to chew the face off anything. I run a squad of three and that puts out 9 shots, 3 TL bolt gun shots. Against Orks, this is a death sentence. That will even handle most of their vehicles, and even put the hurt on some other races transports. I think maybe in that setup, a boost to the weapons would be too much.

In other situations perhaps a boost would be more balanced, and I'm sure I can find more examples of where the humble bolt weaponry shines, but overall? I think maybe a points reduction for some units would be awesome. This would make them more appealing all around, but not break the game with what is suppose to be a medium type weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now you're thinking what the heck, most of these guns are free or only 5 or 10 points, but why is a Chapter Master paying 5 points for a gun he gets fro free with termie armour? That guy can probably just requisition one with a hand wave, lol!

Heavy bolsters should probably only be 5 points for tacs, that would see a resurgence of them there.

They were all over the place when they were 5 points for Sisters. Then again, they haven't seen a huge reduction in usage since they went back up to 10... though that might be because of PE or Rending.

It would be sweet to see other heavy bolsters in the SM codex gain the ability to buy the special ammo scouts can take for their heavy bolters! That would be hilarious.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

• Storm bolters should definitely be Salvo 2/3 or 2/4. It would be good for Terminators.

I'd like to know from you particularly how you can say this, when if you don't have Relentless this is virtually identical to a regular bolter.

I can see his line of thought, salvo special rules would make it so, Terminators would always get the higher amount of shots and still assault.

While Power armor marines would still be able to pull out their bolt pistols in order to shoot and assault.

But in that case why not just make it Assault 2 AND Salvo 4? It would be a direct buff by giving more options to the model. And you still get the higher RoF with the Terminators.

That is not a reason for mobile PA model to use a salvo 2/4 weapon when it has a bolter already.


Twin-linked salvo maybe is a reason to take one over a bolter, but that isn't in the post.

I understand what you're getting at, you want to keep the Storm Bolter an assault-oriented model's weapon, or at least keep the mobility.

In which case yea... assault 3 would be the option. MAYBE twin-linked.

pelicaniforce wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

• Storm bolters should definitely be Salvo 2/3 or 2/4. It would be good for Terminators.

I'd like to know from you particularly how you can say this, when if you don't have Relentless this is virtually identical to a regular bolter.

Because Terminators have Relentless?

I think that given it's an option for PA and Guard characters, and that it's a flamer-level upgrade for Sisters/Dominions/Celestians, a salvo 2/3 storm bolter could do with twin-linked, at the least.

 Quickjager wrote:
I understand what you're getting at, you want to keep the Storm Bolter an assault-oriented model's weapon, or at least keep the mobility.

In which case yea... assault 3 would be the option. MAYBE twin-linked.

Yeah mobility, not assault. I am very interested in using characters as shooting units, e.g. leading Sternguard. The very minimum would be twin-linked, with options on improved AP, extra shots, shred, etcetera.

This would give Tactical Squads an actual reason to take heavy bolters.

I question this, since the reason to upgrade weapons is that they have new abilities that bolt guns do not - high S to use against tanks, mid-strength to use on light vehicles, low AP to use against heavy infantry, templates to use against assault threats. When moving salvo 2/5 isn't much different than a bolter, isn't much better than five snap shots if it were heavy 5, and is still only moderately useful against some entire armies, unlike the other heavies.




Also, there are a lot of things that show that faster-firing guns in the fluff do not have more shots on the table. Any model that gets more than two shots with its small arms gets them from Guard orders, Fireblades, Fury of the Legion, or the the old-codex-style bladestorm exarch ability. None of those things have to do with having a better or faster firing gun. All of them have to do with skills. The only thing that you get with an extra-fast-firing gun is new-style bladestorm or rending assault cannons.



The extra barrel on a storm bolter gives it twin-linked. The improved firing mechanism can give it: a better fire mode than bolters (for example salvo 2/2), or it can give boost to the rounds like ap4 (which I could spit on, atm).

The only way that you can say that Terminators get more than a two-shot storm bolter is by making it the extra shots come from the Terminator armor.



TDA: +1 shots to bolt weapons

storm bolter: salvo 2/2, twin-linked

combi-bolter: rapid fire, twin linked

Result? Terminators have three shots, PAGK and Dominions have two shots.

I don't get it, why do you want to change it from assault 2 -> salvo 2/2 ?

That isn't a buff, that is a nerf, even when twin-linked. If any of the models move, you are forced to shoot at half range and can't assault - which is why you are moving closer. conversely if you are moving away you can't hit most likely. Salvo doesn't give you mobility, it locks you down.

It would ALMOST make bolters better than the upgrade, which is pretty hilarious.

Bad idea all around.

Except the TDA idea, that was out of the box and neat.

Well then I did what I want. I have no interest in salvo storm bolters.

You have to admit salvo 2/3 is just as bad, since you are always going to be moving.

Assault storm bolters are ridiculous. There is nothing right about them being as easy to shoot with as shotguns. They're not for kiting and they are not easier to shoot+charge with than thei half-size brothers. They are for dumping shots onto innocent shoota boyz.

What a the heck kind of space marine takes an extra-size weapon so he can walk further away from the enemy?

Now, if characters ever have precision shots again, you'll want the re-rolls.

My ideal is +1 shots on all power armors.

Well, I think Bolters are fine as is. If you wanted to buff them I'd just give them shred and call it a day.

You all remember that salvo halves the range too, right? Making bolters salvo would make them garbage (even more than they already are).

Give them an extra shot. The better way to fix tactical terminators would be to let them take 2 heavies per 5, or combi weapons.

Unfortunately, there's no way to give a Rapid Fire profile an extra shot.

Rapid Fire being shoot once at long range or twice at half range when stationary or once at half range while moving was the 3e way of doing it that took them two edition changes to fix properly (in 4th I believe you could could twice at half range while moving) and showed just how useless that profile is. Salvo is a good way of representing what they were trying to do with that original stat line, but that doesn't make Salvo 2/1 better than it was in 3rd!

Oh. Ooh.

Why not go back to 2e rules?

Storm Bolters get 2*1/2d6 shots rounding up, but if they roll a double 1, they don't get to shoot at all next turn (but still shoot twice)

Personally, I think the most logical way to have the Storm Bolter - seeing as it's essentially two Boltguns strapped together - in a way that's different from a Combi-bolter would be to give it the following profile:

Storm bolter: Range:24" S:4 AP:5 Type: Rapid fire/Heavy3


The rationale here being that the user could select fire to only use just one of the barrels, or to fire using both; resulting in a weapon with far more kick. Alternatively, if this is seen as far too much of a nerf, perhaps buff it this way:

Storm bolter: Range:24" S:4 AP:5 Type: Assault2/Heavy3

Making it TL salvo 2/2 males sense as it is a terminator weapon at the end of the day so it would improve terminators and as for storm bolters on PA guys... Does anyone take them? They're pointless for sternguard (as they cannot use their special ammo), GKs only take Dreadknights and sisters... GW doesn't care about them

Nobody takes them on Sisters after their first game.

Isn't it like a sub machine gun? Im sure what thats what it was like in the space marine game :p so wouldnt 18" assault 3 make sense?

I'd make Heavy Bolters Heavy 4

Storm Bolters get Twin-linked

Combi-bolters are fine as is maybe a point cheaper, but that's all.

Boltguns are fine as is since they're the starting gun on most PA units anyway.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Unfortunately, there's no way to give a Rapid Fire profile an extra shot

Sure there is. Volley Fire from the Fireblade, First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire from orders, and Storm of Fire from Ethereals all add an extra shot.

Yes, but none of those are on the profile.