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And except for Sisters on account of having the same BS and gun on a cheaper carrier... but when you do these things, you have to act as if you're pointing the guns at the same targets.

It's not fair to compare shootas against bolters if the shoota is shooting a marine and the bolter is shooting an ork.

You need to treat both weapons as if they're shooting at a Marine. Assuming shootas are still S4 AP- Assault 2, that then gives us...

If the range is <12"

14 BS2 S4 AP- Assault 2 against T4 Sv3+ = 1.556 wounds
7 BS4 S4 AP5 Rapid Fire against T4 Sv3+ = 1.556 wounds

If the range is >12"", that changes to

14 BS2 S4 AP- Assault 2 against T4 Sv3+ = 1.556 wounds
7 BS4 S4 AP5 Rapid Fire against T4 Sv3+ = 0.778 wounds

Which actually makes shoota boys better at killing Marines than the same points value of Marines. The Marines only become better when you're shooting at a unit with a 5+ save or worse:

14 BS2 S4 AP- Assault 2 against T4 Sv5+ = 3.111 wounds
7 BS4 S4 AP5 Rapid Fire against T4 Sv5+ = 4.667 wounds

 Furyou Miko wrote:
And except for Sisters on account of having the same BS and gun on a cheaper carrier... but when you do these things, you have to act as if you're pointing the guns at the same targets.

It's not fair to compare shootas against bolters if the shoota is shooting a marine and the bolter is shooting an ork.

You need to treat both weapons as if they're shooting at a Marine. Assuming shootas are still S4 AP- Assault 2, that then gives us...

If the range is <12"

14 BS2 S4 AP- Assault 2 against T4 Sv3+ = 1.556 wounds
7 BS4 S4 AP5 Rapid Fire against T4 Sv3+ = 1.556 wounds

If the range is >12"", that changes to

14 BS2 S4 AP- Assault 2 against T4 Sv3+ = 1.556 wounds
7 BS4 S4 AP5 Rapid Fire against T4 Sv3+ = 0.778 wounds

Which actually makes shoota boys better at killing Marines than the same points value of Marines. The Marines only become better when you're shooting at a unit with a 5+ save or worse:

14 BS2 S4 AP- Assault 2 against T4 Sv5+ = 3.111 wounds
7 BS4 S4 AP5 Rapid Fire against T4 Sv5+ = 4.667 wounds

Shoota boyz won't be better at killing Marines, because as they are shooting, the Marines will be firing back, blowing away much larger numbers of Orks.

Point values are based not only on how much damage a unit can dish out, but how much it can take, and so who will remain standing at the end of a combat. Which is I think pretty much always Tactical Marines mathematically, if we are discussing Troops choices specifically.

I'd stay Stormtrooper could match Marines on damage inflicted to one another

 Bobthehero wrote:
I'd stay Stormtrooper could match Marines on damage inflicted to one another

Funnily enough a Marine is about a third of one percent more effective at shooting a Stormtrooper. The Tempestus Scions have a 2ppm advantage but would get wrecked if the fight made it to melee.

Melee doesn't matter if we're compared bolt guns.

If my calculations or correct, they both do an equal amount of wounds to one another. 0.22222222222222222222222

 Bobthehero wrote:
Melee doesn't matter if we're compared bolt guns.

Doesn't it, though? It's definitely a part of the balancing of the models wielding the weapon. Marines are good not just because they have a good gun, but because they're more durable and better in melee than every other, or nearly every other, baseline infantry in the game.

Doesn't it, though? It's definitely a part of the balancing of the models wielding the weapon. Marines are good not just because they have a good gun, but because they're more durable and better in melee than every other, or nearly every other, baseline infantry in the game.

This. Definitely needs to be considered as a package; this is part of why the storm bolter is the way it is. It's not just an always double tapping bolter, it's a double tapping bolter that lets you run in and hit something afterwards

The storm bolter is the way it is because when they came up with that profile, TDA didn't have Relentless and rapid fire meant if you moved you got only one shot.

I guess the ability to assault is a reason that the storm bolter is good(?), but that isn't the reason it was given assault 2.

Shoota boyz won't be better at killing Marines, because as they are shooting, the Marines will be firing back, blowing away much larger numbers of Orks.

What number, specifically? If they can shoot, the Orks are in charge range and have every reason to try it.


No, any other person in this thread would say orks are better because if you had to choose a unit to perform one round of shooting at a target, the orks would almost always do the same or better than a tactical squad.

That, I didn't know.

DA beat tac marines because of 18" range, battle focus, and rending.

Martel732 wrote:
DA beat tac marines because of 18" range, battle focus, and rending.

I'm not sure that's as true as you think it is. It's different, and there are circumstances where it would certainly be better, but 18" is bordering on scary small range.

Yeah, 18" on a non-CC unit (which DA are passable but not built for) can be dangerous, especially if you are facing people with rapid fire weapons. The example I like to use is FWs with pulse carbines. It's a risky move, but (combined with pinning on the carbines) can be friutful. The way I work it out,

12 man fire team
2 shots each
24 shots
BS 3
12 hits
S 5
T 4
4/6 wound chance
8 wounds
4/6 save chance chance
5 1/3 saves
2 2/3 unsaved wounds

Around 3 dead marines is ideal.

Now comparing with rapid fire range on marines with bolters
IIRC, marines and FWs cost about the same (something like 7-8 points, I don't have my book with me) so were going with.
12 marines
24 shots
BS 4
16 hits
S4
T3
4/6 wound chance
10 2/3 wounds
3/6 save chance
about 5 1/3 saves
about 5 1/3 unsaved wounds
So about 5 dead firewarriors is ideal

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

IIRC, marines and FWs cost about the same (something like 7-8 points, I don't have my book with me) so were going with.

Marines cost 16 points.

14. Marines cost 14 points.

And people want to compare Dire Avengers ? ridiculous

What if the storm bolter has 1 to hit roll and a special rule that adds one more hit for each value above the minimal roll to hit. So at BS4 a 6 roll is 4 hits, 5 roll is 3, 4 roll is 2, and a 3 roll is 1. Snap shooting and overwatch get worse while regular shooting is better.

Heavy Bolters should be upped to Heavy 4 and/or have pinning.

What would happen if all bolters became Strength 5 AP4, and Heavy Bolters became Strength 6 AP 4?

That would mean that 4+ saves would be even less worth the price you pay for them

It's terrible idea, I am on my phone right now so I can't write more about why this is a very bad idea.

If the game were build off D10s instead of D6, we could make more meaningful distinctions between units. Then marines could have 4+ armor and terminators could remain 2+ and have 2+ mean something. You could also have 5+, 6+, 7+, 8+ armors.
Also, APs could range from 1-8 giving us better variety and ability to distinguish fine differences.

Martel732 wrote:
If the game were build off D10s instead of D6, we could make more meaningful distinctions between units. Then marines could have 4+ armor and terminators could remain 2+ and have 2+ mean something. You could also have 5+, 6+, 7+, 8+ armors.
Also, APs could range from 1-8 giving us better variety and ability to distinguish fine differences.

Coincidental you should say that, as I just wrote up some 1st draft of rules that use D10 for hit rolls, toughness and armour saves, with modifiers. I can post it up if you're interested.

 thegreatchimp wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If the game were build off D10s instead of D6, we could make more meaningful distinctions between units. Then marines could have 4+ armor and terminators could remain 2+ and have 2+ mean something. You could also have 5+, 6+, 7+, 8+ armors.
Also, APs could range from 1-8 giving us better variety and ability to distinguish fine differences.

Coincidental you should say that, as I just wrote up some 1st draft of rules that use D10 for hit rolls, toughness and armour saves, with modifiers. I can post it up if you're interested.

Sure, that'd be great. I'm pretty good at mathematical analysis.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
14. Marines cost 14 points.

Wow, big miscalculation on ,my part . I don't play any marine armies. So that makes it closer to 5 kills. Still not bad.

Edit" Would be about the same on DA IIRC.

Yeah, it ticked me off 'cause it now means I need 6 Marines to get a 'free' Sister at the same points value, instead of 3. Made Sisters a considerable less cheesy army.