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I have been looking through the CSM codex and have been wondering what is good in the codex and what is bad. I always have problems against something because i dont use something or i use units that arnt good so i was wondering what units are things that you would want to take because they are good and what units you would not take because they are bad and/or there are better things. I usually play against Turtle, Artillery, long range Anti-tank, and Knight armies.

Thanks,
Alex

I could give you a list of units that are good and bad, but that probably doesn't answer your question.

The best units in the Codex seem to be:

- Nurgle DP
- Bikers with Meltas
- Heldrakes
- Cultists
- Plague Marines

The worst units in the Codex seem to be:

- Possessed
- Helbrutes
- Khorne Berzerkers
- The cc Obliterator things
- Warpflame Gargoyle upgrades for anything

If you choose to use a supplement instead of the regular Codex, some of these units get better. With Crimson Slaughter, you get some special rules for possessed that can make them move like beasts, for instance.

Ok thanks, how would you use cultists? Ive only used them as a force to hold objectives or wait out of LOS for enemy infantry. I havent had the best results with Plague marines except for the fact that you can take 5 marines and 2 special weapons, so maybe put them in a rhino and get two plasma or 2 melta guns and drive around shooting stuff? or maybe 2 melta guns and a plasma pistol and drop them off to take care of a vehicle? In what numbers would you take bikes? I have had mixed results with hellbrutes unless you give him a lascannon and missle launcher but then you have better stuff for that. I still have to get a helldrake but when i do i proably will take him all the time. Are the regular chaos space marines any good or are they just a waste, even though they dont have fearless they still seem to stay on the board fairly well unless they get into CC.

I like 20-strong squads of mellee-oriented marines with infiltrate from Huron and Cypher formation.

Sorcs with spell familliars are great.

Lords are solid beatsticks for their point range.

Nurgle spawns.

Kharn together with 19 marines + escape hatch + invisibility if you happen to roll it = death to everything including superheavies. Kharn eats IK alive. He also works with a landraider but Landraiders have their own problems...cause they're vehicles that cost ~240 pts.

Maulerfiends are great for a mellee rush with spawns, bikes and landraiders.

Obliterators are solid support units. Not super-shooty but one of the best stuff you can get for this role without using forgeworld.

As for cultists - they have different uses.
You can run min squads as a foc filler.
Or you can run them as a part of Helcult formation. In this case, i'd take 1 maxsquad, 1 min. Max squad rushes forward to screen and tarpit as they're all fearless and can hold for quite some time with correct positioning. The second squad runs around the backlines scoring points and being fearless once again.
You can also run a max squad as an HQ delivery.

 koooaei wrote:



Kharn together with 19 marines + escape hatch + invisibility if you happen to roll it = death to everything including superheavies. Kharn eats IK alive. He also works with a landraider but Landraiders have their own problems...cause they're vehicles that cost ~240 pts.

can you go into further detail about this? whats an escape hatch?

Spawn are amazing, especially Nurgle spawn.

Nurgle Lords with PF/LC on a bike are pretty nice. Crimson Slaughter supplement offers Furious Charge and a 2+ armor save.

Sorcerers are amazing...Spell Familiars are the best 15 pts you can spend.

Maulerfiends are good antitank in a list that focuses on rushing the enemy with lots of Spawn or Bikers.

Khorne Lords with Axe of Blind Fury on Juggernauts are pretty ridiculous. 8-13 attacks at I5 S7 AP2 is ridiculous. Spawn or Bikers will help him get to his target / victim.

Havocs with autocannons are pretty cool. 115 points for 8 S7 AP4 shots at 48" range is really not bad at all. They lack durability but the damage output is very good...they often are underestimated and not targeted on T1 if you have lots of other threats.

 Alienoid wrote:

 koooaei wrote:



Kharn together with 19 marines + escape hatch + invisibility if you happen to roll it = death to everything including superheavies. Kharn eats IK alive. He also works with a landraider but Landraiders have their own problems...cause they're vehicles that cost ~240 pts.

can you go into further detail about this? whats an escape hatch?

Escape hatch is an upgrade for...some bunker or wall of martyrs - don't remember exactly. The building has transport capacity of 20 and the hatch is placed 12' awayfrom it and allows to disembark a unit out of it. So, you can get a 12+6' disembark move. Can also use Abaddon this way. But i personally like Kharn as he's great at beating Knights and invisible enemies which are hard for chaos to deal with.

 koooaei wrote:

 Alienoid wrote:

 koooaei wrote:



Kharn together with 19 marines + escape hatch + invisibility if you happen to roll it = death to everything including superheavies. Kharn eats IK alive. He also works with a landraider but Landraiders have their own problems...cause they're vehicles that cost ~240 pts.

can you go into further detail about this? whats an escape hatch?

Escape hatch is an upgrade for...some bunker or wall of martyrs - don't remember exactly. The building has transport capacity of 20 and the hatch is placed 12' awayfrom it and allows to disembark a unit out of it. So, you can get a 12+6' disembark move. Can also use Abaddon this way. But i personally like Kharn as he's great at beating Knights and invisible enemies which are hard for chaos to deal with.

Its the 'bunker' option but can also be taken with a bastion. With escape hatch a bunker comes to 80pts. AV 14 all round. Also with run move, it grants you an 18 +d6" move first turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd say hellbrutes with formations are good as is cypher with his infiltrating chosen. Both are data slates however.
Huron gives you some nice infiltrating options too.

 techsoldaten wrote:
I could give you a list of units that are good and bad, but that probably doesn't answer your question.

The best units in the Codex seem to be:

- Nurgle DP
- Bikers with Meltas
- Heldrakes
- Cultists
- Plague Marines

The worst units in the Codex seem to be:

- Possessed
- Helbrutes
- Khorne Berzerkers
- The cc Obliterator things
- Warpflame Gargoyle upgrades for anything

If you choose to use a supplement instead of the regular Codex, some of these units get better. With Crimson Slaughter, you get some special rules for possessed that can make them move like beasts, for instance.

Why are Helbrutes bad? Awesome fire support.

I have had mixed results with hellbrutes i can only seem to do good with them when they are kitted for range

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Spawn are amazing, especially Nurgle spawn.

Nurgle Lords with PF/LC on a bike are pretty nice. Crimson Slaughter supplement offers Furious Charge and a 2+ armor save.

Sorcerers are amazing...Spell Familiars are the best 15 pts you can spend.

Maulerfiends are good antitank in a list that focuses on rushing the enemy with lots of Spawn or Bikers.

Khorne Lords with Axe of Blind Fury on Juggernauts are pretty ridiculous. 8-13 attacks at I5 S7 AP2 is ridiculous. Spawn or Bikers will help him get to his target / victim.

Havocs with autocannons are pretty cool. 115 points for 8 S7 AP4 shots at 48" range is really not bad at all. They lack durability but the damage output is very good...they often are underestimated and not targeted on T1 if you have lots of other threats.

Khorne Lord with Axe of Blind Fury is only S6.

He's factoring in furious charge from the IoW I think.

Obliterators, nurgle bikers, cultists, spawn, unmarked sorcerers on bikes with spell familiars rolling all on telepathy.

ahriman psychic shrieking three times.

daemon summoning

Crimson slaughter divination oblits. Or daemon sorcerer for summoning

Plague marines are good at holding objectives.

I honestly wouldnt run much else.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
He's factoring in furious charge from the IoW I think.

On a juggernaut, it gives +1S

In my experiences as a CSM player:
Good Units:
I know a lot of people dismissed them after the FAQ, but Heldrakes w/ Baleflamer are still a great unit.
Fly them right, and they can still put out some pain, and AV12/12/10 with a 5++ and IWND can still be quite survivable now that people don't build specifically to combat them much anymore.

While the Typhus tax is high, Plague Zombies in large numbers can be brutal objective holders or tarpits.

Plague Marines w/ plasma guns
Cultists
Plague Marines on Bikes (T6!) w/ plasma guns
Demon Prince variants

Bad Units:
Defiler. Waaay too expensive for an AV12 unit and fairly mediocre in firepower/abilities. Much better to ally with CD and get a Soul Grinder.
Mutilators. The CC version of Obliterators. A dedicated cc unit...that has Slow and Purposeful. Eff that. Plus, the models look AWFUL.
Helbrutes. With the exception of the dataslate, these are just wasted points. All they do is die, and rarely earn their cost back. They don't get a delivery system like a drop pod, which means they're walking their asses across the field. Which means they die.

Serg Rush wrote:
Obliterators, nurgle bikers, cultists, spawn, unmarked sorcerers on bikes with spell familiars rolling all on telepathy.

ahriman psychic shrieking three times.

daemon summoning

Crimson slaughter divination oblits. Or daemon sorcerer for summoning

Plague marines are good at holding objectives.

I honestly wouldnt run much else.

Apparently, you're not the only one that thinks like that. It's the same list over and over again at my FLGS.

 Krargan wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
He's factoring in furious charge from the IoW I think.

On a juggernaut, it gives +1S

Jugg doesn't give +1 S. IoW could give FC but requires you use MoK raptors/bikes over spawn and in a large enough unit to make the icon worth it.

Don't forget to put warp talons in the 'bad' category.

One of my friends in my local weekly gaming group plays CSM/Demon Allies every single time. He's got top 10 in the last 2 GT's he's went to (LVO and Nova) and he runs the same list every. single. time. Haha. He plays with about 200 pts worth of units that changes. He likes swapping Maulerfiend with Hounds or whatever he feels like testing.

Always uses:
Nurgle Prince (allied Daemon)
Nurglings (allied troop, DS wherever, hard to kill, defensive grenades, stealth, and obsec)
Typhus with 2 squads of zombies.
Kharn (this is a preference, he mainly uses this to shut people up about "bad" models)
2x2 Oblits
1x3 Terminators
2 Heldrakes

The rest of his 1850 he swaps, but all those listed above (minus Kharn) is extremely annoying to play again and synergizes well when played correctly.

Heldrakes, post-nerfs, are still scary as hell. Zombies are ridiculously good at holding objectives and you can't assault them with Typhus and Kharn nearby. All the 2+ oblits/terms DSing wherever they are needed is annoying especially with 5++ that he always rolls. He's a good general but his dice rolls are godly. Haha. Always makes for a good game.

The general theme of bad units in the codex that I haven't seen said yet is that they all are overloaded with tons of both long and close range weapons and special upgrades that makes them so general and un-specialized that you can never use them to their full effectiveness.

Examples: Warp talons, Rubric Marines, Defilers, Chosen

i Like to run the defiler in friendly games because i like the model but ill proxy the defiler as a soul grinder the next game to see how it works. What would you give the soul grinder?

 changerofways wrote:
The general theme of bad units in the codex that I haven't seen said yet is that they all are overloaded with tons of both long and close range weapons and special upgrades that makes them so general and un-specialized that you can never use them to their full effectiveness.

Examples: Warp talons, Rubric Marines, Defilers, Chosen

Chosen are a great unit when you gear them properly. 5-plazma chosen with prefered enemy in a rhino probably with infiltrate. Or chosen with a hidden powerfist accompanying your indep in a landraider.

Noise Marines got a bit better and the Blastmaster is pretty good, S8 AP3 ignores cover, useful against a lot of stuff.

Lucius is a bit bash though.

Fabius can help but is a bit of a let down with only FNP at T4 and no Inv. A big squad of S5 I5 Fearless CC CSM with an IoE can do a fair bit of damage.

Like what has been said, Chosen, Possessed, Rubrics and Warp Talons are tonk.

Defilers, eh, not sure. Have had mixed with them. The problem is that they don't know what they want to be. A Soul Grinder is a better take.

I always see mutilators dismissed as awful, but have people actually given them a fair go before they make this statement?

Admittedly I've only found them useful them with VotLW and MoNurgle (as it is the only way I have used them). A T5 2W 2+5++ single model unit with deep strike and a pair of chain fists/lightning claws/etc for only 65 points makes a good back field distractor or reinforcement from my experience.

It's not like your missing out on any must take elites slots by taking one.

nareik wrote:
I always see mutilators dismissed as awful, but have people actually given them a fair go before they make this statement?

Admittedly I've only found them useful them with VotLW and MoNurgle (as it is the only way I have used them). A T5 2W 2+5++ single model unit with deep strike and a pair of chain fists/lightning claws/etc for only 65 points makes a good back field distractor or reinforcement from my experience.

It's not like your missing out on any must take elites slots by taking one.

My buddy was thinking about sticking a squad of 3 with Abaddon in a LR just to see what it could. Sounds pretty nasty in theory.

Read IA13 !

I love Warp Talons (3 Nurgle ones can easily kill 10 basic marines in melee), but they are sadly overcosted.

If you do want to use them, attach them to your Nurgle Lord that you're taking for the Plague Marines as troops, and charge them at your ennemy in an all-fast-assault army (Heldrake+Mace Prince+Maulerfiends+Troops in Rhinos).
Hopefully, this will panic your ennemy into shooting something else, and let them actually get their points back.

If not, I insist on the awesomeness of Nurgle DPs. Everything apart from Tau, Eldar with Warlocks and some IG builds can usually do nothing but roll over and die if you can play him properly.
Now admittedly it is a bit challenging, but when you get the hang of it he can survive long enough to get into melee and almost instantly kill whetever you point him at

 Pilau Rice wrote:

nareik wrote:
I always see mutilators dismissed as awful, but have people actually given them a fair go before they make this statement?

Admittedly I've only found them useful them with VotLW and MoNurgle (as it is the only way I have used them). A T5 2W 2+5++ single model unit with deep strike and a pair of chain fists/lightning claws/etc for only 65 points makes a good back field distractor or reinforcement from my experience.

It's not like your missing out on any must take elites slots by taking one.

My buddy was thinking about sticking a squad of 3 with Abaddon in a LR just to see what it could. Sounds pretty nasty in theory.

Nasty in theory... but I reckon Abaddon could work better in a Slaanesh bike squad with an Icon of Excess.

The advantage of Mutilators is they can have a decent combat punch for a 65 point single model unit. My forum experience suggests most people who decry mutilators are ones who've ran them maxed out, lead by a lord and transported in a land raider, didn't kill much and then decided they are rubbish. You want them to be so inoffensive they can port in, get largely ignored as you have more dangerous units, then happy slap a couple of cheap tanks or participate in some combo charges.

This is my personal take on the CSM codex (excluding named HQs), hope I remembered all

Good units:
Nurgle Spawn
Sorcerers on bikes with Spell Familiars
Obliterators
Bikes
Maulerfiends
Nurgle Lords on Bike

Decent units:
Juggerlords (would be good if they could join Nurgle spawn or combine the Axe of Blind Fury with a 2+ armour save)
Daemon Princes (would be good if they didn't have to generate a power from a chaos lore)
Chosen
Cultists
Plague Marines (would put them in good if they were a bit cheaper)
Heldrake (used to be awesome, it's still good but really easy to avoid for fast armies.)
Suicide Termies (3 men with combi-meltas)
Raptors (decent way to deliver 2 special weaps +a combi, but compete with better FA choices)
Noise Marines (Blastmasters are sweet, but these guys are slow)
Havocs (Versatile)

Okay-to-Meh-units
Vindicators
Predators
Warpsmiths
Dark Apostles
Land Raiders
Regular Chaos marines (no LD bonus? No drop pod? (don't count the 100p Dreadclaw) I'll pass in most cases)
Thousand Sons (Ap3 is neat, but these are too expensive and situational)
Berzerkers (Expensive, no decent delivery system, must pay to get a weak ap4)
Helbrute (usually they just die without having done anything, but I like the Mayhem pack)
Forgefiends (too expensive for what they do, your Autocannons won't kill much in 7th)

Awful units:
Defilers
Warp Talons
Mutilators

From the IA: 13 book (I'll just list what I personally like and consider good, excluding super-heavies)
Rapier batteries (laser destroyers and conversion beamer ones, especially the latter as you get laser destroyers cheaper by using Renegades)
Fire Raptors
Sicaran Battle Tanks
Hell Blades (outclassed by other things in the FA section, but I like them for accompanying my Fire Raptor)
Plague Hulks (what the Defiler should have been, AV13! And Shrouded!)
Blight Drones

Note that this is intended for modified Maelstrom play (like ETC, BAO, etc.), and thus the ability to quickly grab objectives is appreciated.

Demon Princes are by far the more competitive HQ choices, especially fully kitted out. However, if you are going to go with a demon prince I would recommend spending the extra points to take Be'lakor as an allied HQ. Be'lakor is not listed in the csm codex because he is technically a Demon unit, but you can find his rules on the internet pretty easily with Google. Be'lakor has all the pros of a demon prince and then some. He can use invisibility as a psychic power for instance, (i think) which is outrageous when used correctly.

Heldrakes are probably an auto-take in any csm list, but personally i do not like them. I think they're kind of boring to play with.

Really there are no specifically good or bad units, and it just narrows down to what you like to play with. The only thing I shy away from totally are warp talons, I don't think they're that useful.

Don't worry so much about whats more competitive though, as that can really ruin a casual game. For instance my list is composed of only the things i like to play with, regardless of how well they do. Cultists and Forgefiends with Hades Autocannons. Why? Becuase they're so freakin' cool!