Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Were just thinking, Was the creation of the primarchs a mistake? I mean, he created 20 super humans who seems to be the only ones who would ever come close to his power level, and did knowing that chaos exist and corrupts. It just seems such a bad idea.

The Space marines were needed according to me since humanity were so assailed by xenon and normal human would have a lot harder to reunite mankind. And maybe not succeed.

And while the primarchs are genius just having a space marine commander leading a expedition fleet seems enough. No risk of anyone commanding hundred of thousand of marines turning traitor but still good enough to conquer worlds. What do you think?

I don't think the Primarchs were a mistake. The guys trying to conquer the galaxy after all and who better to lead the armies than genius godlike soldiers.

If they'd stayed on terror and been raised and taught directly by the emperor his plan would have gone perfectly probably.

I think he trusted them too much though in giving them so much autonomy. But then also didn't trust them enough to tell them about the dangers of the warp and chaos which they ended up discovering out of their own curiosity.

But then again the emperor shouldn't have assumed chaos would have idly stood by while he created some of the most powerful individuals in the galaxy.

There's a lot of things to consider in this argument.

The thing that just continues to irk me is that it seems, that no on except his sons would ever have the power to challenge him. And that would mean to me, that if he hade decided against creating them, no one could have wounded him and destroy so much of the galaxy.

Well, if you follow that line of logic, then the great crusade and trying to take back the galaxy was a mistake, as it was nearly an impossible task. The primarchs are what the emperor thought would facilitate that goal. But he didn't know the chaos gods would stolen them.

The primarchs were fallible because they had human emotions and upbringings.

The Space Marines are far less concerned with the typical human failings, which is why they are so much more reliable.

The Legions fell because the Marines were more loyal to their Primarchs than to the Emperor. Hence why Guilliman broke them up into Chapters. It removes the Cult of Personality.

50% of the Legions fell. Something like 2% of Chapters have fallen according to the fluffmath.

So yeah, the Primarchs were a bad idea.

I think that hindsight is 20/20.

His sons couldn't really challenge him though, at least until one was charged with the powers of all four chaos gods and even then the emperor was holding back and even then it was his own compassion for his favoured son that allowed Horus to get a mortal wound in.

I don't think making the Primarchs was a mistake. He made a lot of mistakes in how he handled them though, which is where the problems started. That, and them being scattered. 'Letting' that happen was a pretty big mistake.

Creating the space marines was a mistake.

The Primarchs were made to build a golden age of humanity. The Primarchs were not supposed to have their own military power bases and lead armies or have political empire. The space marines were only created as an emergency plan when the primarchs were lost in the warp and the Emperor had to get them back. The primarchs were made without any intention of giving them space marines to command.

The primarchs would never make humanity great if they were commanding their own private armies for the Emperor, which were relatively small as people will post about sometimes. It was a galactic empire, one single person can never command everything. Leman Russ tried to explain that there was "one to command the armies, one to control intelligences, " etcetera, but that is a simplification. Imagine an army anywhere in the Imperium feeling any benefit from the genius of one primarch commanding the armies when he is months away by ship.

The primarchs had a way to create a great race in humanity. They weren't governments, they were living cultural reservoirs. The greatest innovations in all our history were created by people who would die after working for only a few dozen years. Every scientist or leader or thinker humanity has ever had had love affairs and personality faults, they all had to sleep, and most importantly it is hard for them to transmit their ideas, because everyone they could talk to also had alcoholism, childhood trauma, religious prejudices, or some other impediment to absorbing things from their peers. Even just ego, and a need to prove themselves or own their ideas means that the greatest humans will distort the legacies of their mentors.

This is why it is important that primarchs existed. They are supposed to learn from all the greatest humans in their respective fields and, and then use their immortality and their godlike status to make sure those ideas are used to their best purpose. Corax isn't a special forces commando, he is a labor leader. Everyone knows that Lorgar and Magnus weren't soldiers, and even Guilliman was supposed to be a civil engineer. The ultimate use was determined by Horus, the Emperor's heir. The Index Astartes criticizes Horus for exploiting the other legions and claiming their shared victories as his own, but that was the very point. Magnus was the ultimate psyker, Alpharius was the ultimate anarchist/spy/snowden, Corax the ultimate trade unionist, Horus was the ultimate leader.

Imagine if Ferrus Mannus were the head technologist of the Imperium, and Sanguinius were the head aerobics coach. You wouldn't need asexual, ultra-militarist space marines who are incapable of taking part of day to day life, because every little village in the Imperium would have a neighborhood watch with power armor and gauss blasters in their closets, leadership 9 and natural strength four.


Well, now the Imperium have space marines but not primarchs. The Imperium is actually alright sometimes, and the parts that are run by space marines are ok. However, it definitely is not the innovative paradise that the Emperor designed the primarchs to build.

I truly believe that making the Primarch's was a mistake. The Emperor knew of the chaos gods and did nothing to instruct the primarchs once he found them one by one...after being tossed to their own destinies by the very powers that the emperor wanted to protect his sons and the rest of humanity. Remember that the space marines were already made and followed those primarchs he became their own 'fathers.' Emperor knows what happened to two of his son's and what happened to those space marines who would have been their sons? Anyway--as one meme that I saw...The Horus Heresy--how could the Emperor not have forseen it!? And this is very true. The primarchs were post human...but still human. One wonders what would have happened if the Emperor would not have dealt with Aurelian Lorgar so strongly and humiliate him into delving into dark things. Nor being hard handed against Magnus the Red for trying to warn his father...a lot of what ifs...bottom line is that the Emperor set himself up for failure by placiing a great deal of reponsibility on some post human beings who acted much like brats--to the destruction of billions if not trillions of human lives. The very lives that they were supposed to defend! The Primarch's--epic fail on the part of the Emperor!

 lordseamus wrote:
I truly believe that making the Primarch's was a mistake. The Emperor knew of the chaos gods and did nothing to instruct the primarchs once he found them one by one...after being tossed to their own destinies by the very powers that the emperor wanted to protect his sons and the rest of humanity. Remember that the space marines were already made and followed those primarchs he became their own 'fathers.' Emperor knows what happened to two of his son's and what happened to those space marines who would have been their sons? Anyway--as one meme that I saw...The Horus Heresy--how could the Emperor not have forseen it!? And this is very true. The primarchs were post human...but still human. One wonders what would have happened if the Emperor would not have dealt with Aurelian Lorgar so strongly and humiliate him into delving into dark things. Nor being hard handed against Magnus the Red for trying to warn his father...a lot of what ifs...bottom line is that the Emperor set himself up for failure by placiing a great deal of reponsibility on some post human beings who acted much like brats--to the destruction of billions if not trillions of human lives. The very lives that they were supposed to defend! The Primarch's--epic fail on the part of the Emperor!

But like I said earlier, those mistakes are how he handled the Primarchs. The Primarchs themselves I don't think we're a mistake. It's things he did after that that were the issue.

From the beginning I would say. Well you also had the really horrible idea of making some socio- and psychopaths. Heck even the Space Marines are a really horrible idea.

@Imageek--Just like Beaviz81 said, the Emperor created things he could not control. For being a very powerful psyker---well being a powerful entity for that matter...he made really stupid decisions that had lasting consequences for Billions on souls. He created monsters that he couldn't handle---maybe he should have read old Terran literature and read a copy of "Frankenstein." He might have learned something.

 lordseamus wrote:
@Imageek--Just like Beaviz81 said, the Emperor created things he could not control. For being a very powerful psyker---well being a powerful entity for that matter...he made really stupid decisions that had lasting consequences for Billions on souls. He created monsters that he couldn't handle---maybe he should have read old Terran literature and read a copy of "Frankenstein." He might have learned something.

Thank you kindly and great point.

 lordseamus wrote:
@Imageek--Just like Beaviz81 said, the Emperor created things he could not control. For being a very powerful psyker---well being a powerful entity for that matter...he made really stupid decisions that had lasting consequences for Billions on souls. He created monsters that he couldn't handle---maybe he should have read old Terran literature and read a copy of "Frankenstein." He might have learned something.

Frankenstein is a stupid horror story written by an author who had no idea of biology or science -- her understanding of biological functions of sentient being was on the level of "Shoot lightning at things and they magically scientifically come to life". It's nothing more than another backwards Aesop against "playing god", and is about as useful at teaching a lesson as preventing kids from having s by telling them their reproductive organs would rot or fall off.

The Emperor was trying to reclaim the galaxy for humanity, he's not playing house with the four Gods of Chaos. Humanity needed his guidance but he could not have been every where at once; he needed the ones he knew could guide humanity with a level of power close to (but not quite on the same level as) his to serve as his lieutenants. Lieutenants that can function autonomously without his control. That's why he created the Primarchs -- independant leaders, not puppets nor a buffed-up young Malcador.

Also, both the old and the new Visions and the recent codexes reaffirmed the idea that the Emperor created the Space Marines after and because the Primarchs got snatched. He had no other option but to create them since he needed a super-human army to reconquer the galaxy, as he had always done. The HH novels and the IA books make it clear that even before the Space Marines the Emperor relied on unstable yet super-human soldiers like the Thunder Warriors to reunite old Terra. Now that the Primarchs are gone he would need better, more stable breed of super human warriors to reunite the Galaxy. So he made the Space Marines.

If anything were a mistake it was the Emperor trying to reclaim the galaxy for mankind. The Chaos Gods would have never allowed him to do so, since they would have known his true intentions. Any move he takes that shows his true intention would instantly get him -9000 relationship points with all four of the Gods.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 lordseamus wrote:
@Imageek--Just like Beaviz81 said, the Emperor created things he could not control. For being a very powerful psyker---well being a powerful entity for that matter...he made really stupid decisions that had lasting consequences for Billions on souls. He created monsters that he couldn't handle---maybe he should have read old Terran literature and read a copy of "Frankenstein." He might have learned something.

Thank you kindly and great point.

But, I think what Mr Geek is saying is, if he hadn't allowed the Chaos Gods to kidnap them there is every possibility that he would have had full control over them. It is there individual upbringings on their homeworlds that gave them their distinct personalities. If the Emperor had had them with him for the entirety of their lives, which seems to be his initial intention, up until he needed them for the Crusade, then he might have the Primarchs he had intended to. Not the unreliable man babies he got in some cases. It all went pear shaped for the Primarchs and the Emperor when they were abducted. But that's what you get for going back on agreements with Gods

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 lordseamus wrote:
@Imageek--Just like Beaviz81 said, the Emperor created things he could not control. For being a very powerful psyker---well being a powerful entity for that matter...he made really stupid decisions that had lasting consequences for Billions on souls. He created monsters that he couldn't handle---maybe he should have read old Terran literature and read a copy of "Frankenstein." He might have learned something.

Thank you kindly and great point.

But, I think what Mr Geek is saying is, if he hadn't allowed the Chaos Gods to kidnap them there is every possibility that he would have had full control over them. It is there individual upbringings on their homeworlds that gave them their distinct personalities. If the Emperor had had them with him for the entirety of their lives, which seems to be his initial intention, up until he needed them for the Crusade, then he might have the Primarchs he had intended to. Not the unreliable man babies he got in some cases. It all went pear shaped for the Primarchs and the Emperor when they were abducted. But that's what you get for going back on agreements with Gods

Look the Primarch-project was at a flawed idea. Empy wanted all aspects of his already flawed personality represented, and that was a really bad thing. The only two Space Marines I would consider even making are the Imperial Fists and Space Wolves. The rest, and I would be in very dire straights if I would consider making. And I would go for better sources than mr. Geek myself.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

Look the Primarch-project was at a flawed idea. Empy wanted all aspects of his already flawed personality represented, and that was a really bad thing. The only two Space Marines I would consider even making are the Imperial Fists and Space Wolves. The rest, and I would be in very dire straights if I would consider making. And I would go for better sources than mr. Geek myself.

It wasn't a great plan no, but was any the Emperor had. The Primarchs were a necessary idiocy and without the Primarchs no Legions. But yeah, perhaps just having one Legion derived from the Emperors own genetic material would have been a better idea. But then would they have had the same flexibility and autonomy.

Why if I agree with ImAGeek? If I agreed with you Beavis81 I would do the same thing.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 lordseamus wrote:
@Imageek--Just like Beaviz81 said, the Emperor created things he could not control. For being a very powerful psyker---well being a powerful entity for that matter...he made really stupid decisions that had lasting consequences for Billions on souls. He created monsters that he couldn't handle---maybe he should have read old Terran literature and read a copy of "Frankenstein." He might have learned something.

Thank you kindly and great point.

But, I think what Mr Geek is saying is, if he hadn't allowed the Chaos Gods to kidnap them there is every possibility that he would have had full control over them. It is there individual upbringings on their homeworlds that gave them their distinct personalities. If the Emperor had had them with him for the entirety of their lives, which seems to be his initial intention, up until he needed them for the Crusade, then he might have the Primarchs he had intended to. Not the unreliable man babies he got in some cases. It all went pear shaped for the Primarchs and the Emperor when they were abducted. But that's what you get for going back on agreements with Gods

Yeah, that's what I meant. The idea of creating the Primarchs wasn't itself a mistake. Had it gone to plan, they would've been loyal sons, but with them scattered beyond his influence and then his poor handling of certain situations (not explaining chaos, not explaining why he left them in the lurch, Monarchia, Magnus) are the mistakes that led to their downfall.

Merir Astelan, one of the Fallen, when tortured by Boreas in Angels of Darkness claims the creation of the primarchs were a mistake, as it made those of the new legion loyal to the primarch before the Emperor. Being born on Terra and a member of the old legion, his loyalty was always to the Imperium and Emperor before the Lion.

The real world analogy of the Marian reform is pretty obvious though. When reorganising the Roman legions, Marius ensured loyalty to the commanders rather than Rome. While ensuring a better fighting force, it didn't help with loyalty.

@Icmiracle--I was not saying Frankenstein was good science I was using the text as a moral for a story that was...about a guy who reanimated a monster and things went wrong= a powerful psyker/being/entity who made 20 (21 counting the twins) beings who did a great deal of damage to humanity then aided them. The idea--while noble--was flawed...and the emperor should have known better....but after all, Icmiracle...this is fluff and Warhammer 40k is a game. All that is being argued is the wisdom of the Emperor for choosing his course of action. Malcador was much the wiser when recruiting and training the Grey Knights...maybe the only chapter that truly protects humanity.

I don't think the Primarch's were a mistake as the Emperor needed their gene seed to create the legions, but also have godlike figures to lead them across the galaxy. As powerful as the Emperor was, he couldn't be everywhere across the galaxy at once and his great crusade would have eventually lost momentum.

It is hinted at several times in the Heresy books of the Emperor's plans to retire the Primarchs once the great crusade had ended with the Emperor giving each of his sons living quarters on Terra and so on to be able to step back from humanity due to no longer being required.

On another note, I can't help but wonder if the Primarchs were all exactly the same when still in their capsules on Terra, each of them an identical clone of the Emperor and that the worlds each of them landed on gave them the personality and physical appearance they would grow into (e.g. Angron is how the emperor would have turned out if he had grown up on the same world) or if their inner personality was always there. What would Angron have turned out like if he had landed on Maccrage instead of Guiilliman? Taking the butchers nails out of the equation, would he of still had violent tendencies and be a bloodthirsty brute (butchers nails only amplified what was already there in him) or would he have been a rational, level headed scholar like Guilliman?

 lordseamus wrote:
@Icmiracle--I was not saying Frankenstein was good science I was using the text as a moral for a story that was...about a guy who reanimated a monster and things went wrong= a powerful psyker/being/entity who made 20 (21 counting the twins) beings who did a great deal of damage to humanity then aided them. The idea--while noble--was flawed...and the emperor should have known better....but after all, Icmiracle...this is fluff and Warhammer 40k is a game. All that is being argued is the wisdom of the Emperor for choosing his course of action. Malcador was much the wiser when recruiting and training the Grey Knights...maybe the only chapter that truly protects humanity.

Good point, but I would go for the psychic imprint of the Imperial Fists as the Grey Knights are a bit keen on murdering anyone.

Good point Beaviz81!

I think it'd be better to say the Grey Knights protected overall humanity, and that one planet with a daemon incursion is screwed for any hopes to live on after it. (Though the Grey knights will use mind wipes as well, I guess, to be fair)

 Slaphead wrote:
I don't think the Primarch's were a mistake as the Emperor needed their gene seed to create the legions, but also have godlike figures to lead them across the galaxy. As powerful as the Emperor was, he couldn't be everywhere across the galaxy at once and his great crusade would have eventually lost momentum.

It is hinted at several times in the Heresy books of the Emperor's plans to retire the Primarchs once the great crusade had ended with the Emperor giving each of his sons living quarters on Terra and so on to be able to step back from humanity due to no longer being required.

On another note, I can't help but wonder if the Primarchs were all exactly the same when still in their capsules on Terra, each of them an identical clone of the Emperor and that the worlds each of them landed on gave them the personality and physical appearance they would grow into (e.g. Angron is how the emperor would have turned out if he had grown up on the same world) or if their inner personality was always there. What would Angron have turned out like if he had landed on Maccrage instead of Guiilliman? Taking the butchers nails out of the equation, would he of still had violent tendencies and be a bloodthirsty brute (butchers nails only amplified what was already there in him) or would he have been a rational, level headed scholar like Guilliman?

The Grey Knights say otherwise.

I've got a sneaky suspicion the SMs would've met the Thunder Warriors' fate.

The only mistake was that there was only one Roboute Guilliman instead of twenty. Imagine twenty Ultramarine Legions, the galaxy would be conquered in short order without all the faffing about.

Animus wrote:
The only mistake was that there was only one Roboute Guilliman instead of twenty. Imagine twenty Ultramarine Legions, the galaxy would be conquered in short order without all the faffing about.

Robute? I would rather make Rogal or Leman, heck I would have preferred making the Khan and Corax before I would consider him .

 Beaviz81 wrote:

Animus wrote:
The only mistake was that there was only one Roboute Guilliman instead of twenty. Imagine twenty Ultramarine Legions, the galaxy would be conquered in short order without all the faffing about.

Robute? I would rather make Rogal or Leman, heck I would have preferred making the Khan and Corax before I would consider him .

Why? We get you hate the UM, but Guilliman got stuff done. Behind the Luna Wolves, the UM had the best record, and the LW had a head start. Guilliman was an excellent tactician and leader.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

Animus wrote:
The only mistake was that there was only one Roboute Guilliman instead of twenty. Imagine twenty Ultramarine Legions, the galaxy would be conquered in short order without all the faffing about.

Robute? I would rather make Rogal or Leman, heck I would have preferred making the Khan and Corax before I would consider him .

Why? We get you hate the UM, but Guilliman got stuff done. Behind the Luna Wolves, the UM had the best record, and the LW had a head start. Guilliman was an excellent tactician and leader.

Robute is loyal to Robute, thats the main reason.

And no I don't hate Robute, I see the truth unlike you.