Were the Primarch a mistake?

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**ImAGeek**

Roboute is loyal to the Imperium. And what truth.

Ya know, it's really hard to have a conversation with you. I was genuinely just curious as to why.

**Animus**

Beaviz81 wrote:
Animus wrote:
The only mistake was that there was only one Roboute Guilliman instead of twenty. Imagine twenty Ultramarine Legions, the galaxy would be conquered in short order without all the faffing about.

Robute? I would rather make Rogal or Leman, heck I would have preferred making the Khan and Corax before I would consider him .

Why? Dorn is stubborn and prideful. Russ is reckless and easily led. The Khan and Corax are one note.
And none of them and their Legions can match Guilliman and the Ultramarines, who liberated more worlds than anyone else, did it faster than anyone else, took fewer casualties than anyone else and built the worlds they took rather than leaving it smoking rubble.

Beaviz81 wrote:
Robute is loyal to Robute, thats the main reason.

He's loyal to the Imperium, and has never done anything to suggest otherwise. Of all the Primarchs Guilliman is probably the most loyal, maybe not to the Emperor as that would probably be Dorn, but to the idea of the Imperium itself.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Animus wrote:

He's loyal to the Imperium, and has never done anything to suggest otherwise. Of all the Primarchs Guilliman is probably the most loyal, maybe not to the Emperor as that would probably be Dorn, but to the idea of the Imperium itself.

He was also one of the few to not really consider the Emperor a father, he had a father on Ultramar.

**lordseamus**

I ask you why would the Emperor give a full legion of supreme warriors (the space marines) to the likes of a Conrad Kurz or Angron---those two just screamed---"Not a Good idea!" It's like let's trust Hannibal Lecter around a population of people without expecting him not to eat a few!

**ImAGeek**

lordseamus wrote:
I ask you why would the Emperor give a full legion of supreme warriors (the space marines) to the likes of a Conrad Kurz or Angron---those two just screamed---"Not a Good idea!" It's like let's trust Hannibal Lecter around a population of people without expecting him not to eat a few!

Again, that's an issue with what the Emperor did after the Primarchs had been created. If they hadn't been scattered, Angron and Curze wouldn't have been like they were.

**Veteran Sergeant**

ImAGeek wrote:
Beaviz81 wrote:
Animus wrote:
The only mistake was that there was only one Roboute Guilliman instead of twenty. Imagine twenty Ultramarine Legions, the galaxy would be conquered in short order without all the faffing about.

Robute? I would rather make Rogal or Leman, heck I would have preferred making the Khan and Corax before I would consider him .

Why? We get you hate the UM, but Guilliman got stuff done. Behind the Luna Wolves, the UM had the best record, and the LW had a head start. Guilliman was an excellent tactician and leader.

Look not for reason or critical thinking in a Beaviz post, only mindless Ultramarine hate.

**Beaviz81**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
ImAGeek wrote:
Beaviz81 wrote:
Animus wrote:
The only mistake was that there was only one Roboute Guilliman instead of twenty. Imagine twenty Ultramarine Legions, the galaxy would be conquered in short order without all the faffing about.

Robute? I would rather make Rogal or Leman, heck I would have preferred making the Khan and Corax before I would consider him .

Why? We get you hate the UM, but Guilliman got stuff done. Behind the Luna Wolves, the UM had the best record, and the LW had a head start. Guilliman was an excellent tactician and leader.
Look not for reason or critical thinking in a Beaviz post, only mindless Ultramarine hate.

Yeah and Robbute was the solution to everything. Read Deathwatch 2010 you frakking liar and see the truth.

**motyak**

Everyone cool it on the rudeness, perhaps have an elective break from the thread, before you have an enforced break from the board

**Taffy17**

In the context of this thread Roboute wouldn't do very well as he was more of a Manager than a Warrior.

Logistically and politically he was probably the best which meant he got all his legion was where he needed them at the right time so they could be most productive.

I don't think their success was due to the legion or his own exceptional combat prowess, it was due to his efficiency.

**Pilau Rice**

lordseamus wrote:
I ask you why would the Emperor give a full legion of supreme warriors (the space marines) to the likes of a Conrad Kurz or Angron---those two just screamed---"Not a Good idea!" It's like let's trust Hannibal Lecter around a population of people without expecting him not to eat a few!

Because it was what they were created for, to lead their own respective legion. Really, the Emperor should have put them both down, but their flaws weren't apparent until they were actually allowed to go out on their own.

**Taffy17**

The emperor didn't exactly stick around to find out though what Angron was like. He basically kidnapped Angron, dumped him on his legion and buggered off leaving the legion like "wtf do we do with this raging demi-god in our basement?"

**ImAGeek**

Taffy17 wrote:
In the context of this thread Roboute wouldn't do very well as he was more of a Manager than a Warrior.

Logistically and politically he was probably the best which meant he got all his legion was where he needed them at the right time so they could be most productive.

I don't think their success was due to the legion or his own exceptional combat prowess, it was due to his efficiency.

I don't agree. While he wasn't the best warrior of the Primarchs, he was certainly very capable. There is more to him than efficiency. And also, eficciency and logistics are a big part of what the command is for, so id rather have 20 Guillimans than say 20 russes. He was very well rounded, decent at everything you'd want from a Primarch (more than decent at most, probably).

I know some of you probably think I'm just fanboying for Guilliman/the UM, and there probably is a little bit of that, but he did have his weaknesses too. I just think he was probably the most well rounded Primarch, and you can't really deny the UM were a very effective legion and they did get stuff done. I don't think the Primarchs as a whole were a mistake when you have examples like Guilliman. I think the mistakes came in how the Emperor dealt with them after they were scattered.

**Animus**

Taffy17 wrote:
In the context of this thread Roboute wouldn't do very well as he was more of a Manager than a Warrior.

Logistically and politically he was probably the best which meant he got all his legion was where he needed them at the right time so they could be most productive.

I don't think their success was due to the legion or his own exceptional combat prowess, it was due to his efficiency.

Guilliman was both warrior and leader.
And frankly being a warrior matters far less than being a leader when it comes to large scale war. For example there are more Warlord Titans than Primarchs, so there is plenty that trumps them in terms of "muscle", but there are very few things that can match their minds.
Guilliman turning his superior mind to the recruiting, training, tactics and logistics of his Legion, and his sons inheriting his traits, is what makes them powerful and successful.

**Taffy17**

Arghh crap, i got this thread mixed up with the 'Primarch Bracketology' one about who'd win in fights.

I wasn't knocking him at all. I agree with both of you.

I was merely saying while, like all Primarchs, he was a great strategist and combatant there are plenty of other Primarchs which are much better than him at these 2 things.

Like you both said and I said before you, although it sounds like you may have taken it as a negative point which wasn't intended, was that it was his managerial mind that allowed him to be so efficient in conquering so many systems IMO.

**ImAGeek**

Easy mistake

I only took it negatively because of the context issue making it seem like you were saying he wasn't a good leader because he wasn't a good warrior. There are definitely a lot of Primarchs who are better fighters than him. I'd say he's up there strategically though as one of the best in that aspect.

**Taffy17**

No worries.

I need to read more heresy anyway.

I'm probably just under stating cause he's not Horus or Dorn for whom strategy is their thing.

**Slaphead**

Guilliman was an outstanding tactician, diplomat and manager. Most of the other Primarch's were one trick ponies that only thought about war. Guilliman thought of the bigger picture in terms of building society, industry, civilisation etc and that is why I also agree that 20 of him would have made the great crusade a lot better in the long run. The worlds that prospered under his governance and his legion's success in driving the Chaos Legions back to the eye of terror speaks for itself.

Going back on topic, the mistake was not in the creation of the Primarch's but in how the Emperor handled them.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Beaviz81 wrote:

Yeah and Robbute was the solution to everything. Read Deathwatch 2010 you frakking liar and see the truth.

Could you please just post your view on what this 'truth' is? As with everything from the BL its skewed by the author's views on the subject as well as what the character's views are supposed to be.

ImAGeek wrote:

I don't agree. While he wasn't the best warrior of the Primarchs, he was certainly very capable. There is more to him than efficiency. And also, eficciency and logistics are a big part of what the command is for, so id rather have 20 Guillimans than say 20 russes. He was very well rounded, decent at everything you'd want from a Primarch (more than decent at most, probably).

I know some of you probably think I'm just fanboying for Guilliman/the UM, and there probably is a little bit of that, but he did have his weaknesses too. I just think he was probably the most well rounded Primarch, and you can't really deny the UM were a very effective legion and they did get stuff done. I don't think the Primarchs as a whole were a mistake when you have examples like Guilliman. I think the mistakes came in how the Emperor dealt with them after they were scattered.

Pretty much this, it would be better to have a Leader that actually leads, doing the planning, making sure the supply lines are there and being able to play the political game with the other branches of service that one that is just good at killing things. Guilliman was capable in the ways of killing, but he preferred the big picture, which is why he encouraged his Officers to take charge once the battle was in swing.

Also Tactical Flexibility trumps extreme specialization when it comes to large forces like the Legions were. Sure you have your specialties in there, the Devastators, Assault Marines and Tac Squads, but it will come down to how flexible you can be in the face of the enemy, can you react to what they throw at you? Guilliman wanted his Legion to be able to do that.

**Draco**

Yes, they were a mistake. It could be a very success story but the chaos was too strong. Emperor is not all-knowing and I assume that Tzeench played with him.

**Jehan-reznor**

lcmiracle wrote:
lordseamus wrote:
@Imageek--Just like Beaviz81 said, the Emperor created things he could not control. For being a very powerful psyker---well being a powerful entity for that matter...he made really stupid decisions that had lasting consequences for Billions on souls. He created monsters that he couldn't handle---maybe he should have read old Terran literature and read a copy of "Frankenstein." He might have learned something.

Frankenstein is a stupid horror story written by an author who had no idea of biology or science -- her understanding of biological functions of sentient being was on the level of "Shoot lightning at things and they ~~magically~~ scientifically come to life". It's nothing more than another backwards Aesop against "playing god", and is about as useful at teaching a lesson as preventing kids from having s by telling them their reproductive organs would rot or fall off.

Spoiler:

The Emperor was trying to reclaim the galaxy for humanity, he's not playing house with the four Gods of Chaos. Humanity needed his guidance but he could not have been every where at once; he needed the ones he knew could guide humanity with a level of power close to (but not quite on the same level as) his to serve as his lieutenants. Lieutenants that can function autonomously without his control. That's why he created the Primarchs -- independant leaders, not puppets nor a buffed-up young Malcador.

Also, both the old and the new Visions and the recent codexes reaffirmed the idea that the Emperor created the Space Marines after and because the Primarchs got snatched. He had no other option but to create them since he needed a super-human army to reconquer the galaxy, as he had always done. The HH novels and the IA books make it clear that even before the Space Marines the Emperor relied on unstable yet super-human soldiers like the Thunder Warriors to reunite old Terra. Now that the Primarchs are gone he would need better, more stable breed of super human warriors to reunite the Galaxy. So he made the Space Marines.

If anything were a mistake it was the Emperor trying to reclaim the galaxy for mankind. The Chaos Gods would have never allowed him to do so, since they would have known his true intentions. Any move he takes that shows his true intention would instantly get him -9000 relationship points with all four of the Gods

.

The book was written in the 1800's when these things were not fully understood, and it is not about technology it is about the angst of creating something that you cannot control (And against god off course).

The Primarchs were not the problem, or the Space marines, The Emperor was the problem, Ignoring Chaos's threat, Picking up the primarchs and continuing his grand like nothing had happened, nost of the primarchs needed counseling, and when they acted not the way he wanted he chastised them and handled it completely wrong, for someone who lived a very long life the emperor has some issues in acting like a humane "father"

**nareik**

The Emperor didn't exactly ignore Chaos's threat.

His long game is to protect the human race (from chaos) during their evolution into a psychic race.

Its more the case that his management of the chaos threat (stifle all acknowledgement and belief to starve the warp) didn't work out.

**Animus**

The Emperor thought or hoped that the Space Marines were immune to Chaos, he was just wrong is all.

**Draco**

The Emperor didn't tell to primarchs what chaos and warp was. Even Magnus did not know a true essence of chaos.

**ImAGeek**

Draco wrote:
The Emperor didn't tell to primarchs what chaos and warp was. Even Magnus did not know a true essence of chaos.

I don't think anyone disputed that?

**Silverthorne**

Animus wrote:
Beaviz81 wrote:
Animus wrote:
The only mistake was that there was only one Roboute Guilliman instead of twenty. Imagine twenty Ultramarine Legions, the galaxy would be conquered in short order without all the faffing about.

Robute? I would rather make Rogal or Leman, heck I would have preferred making the Khan and Corax before I would consider him .

Why? Dorn is stubborn and prideful. Russ is reckless and easily led. The Khan and Corax are one note.
And none of them and their Legions can match Guilliman and the Ultramarines, who liberated more worlds than anyone else, did it faster than anyone else, took fewer casualties than anyone else and built the worlds they took rather than leaving it smoking rubble.

Beaviz81 wrote:
Robute is loyal to Robute, thats the main reason.

He's loyal to the Imperium, and has never done anything to suggest otherwise. Of all the Primarchs Guilliman is probably the most loyal, maybe not to the Emperor as that would probably be Dorn, but to the idea of the Imperium itself.

More loyal than Sanguinus? That's rich.

**Kommissar Kel**

Sanguinus was loyal to the emperor, not necessarily his ideals.

Rowboat was loyal to the ideals(which is exactly what animus just said had you bothered to read what you were quoting).

Honestly the bigger issue was specialising the legions.

Dark angels were created as all-rounders, everyone else got specialised to one degree or another(and often to extremes). This is part of why/how the deathguard, iron warriors, and worl eaters all fell.

**Taffy17**

I'd argue Roboute was loyal to humanity a lot more than the Emperor. IIRC he never considered the Emperor his father.

Sanguinius was loyal to both and the Blood Angels are well known for sticking up for the little guy.

When the Emperor appointed Horus warmaster he made the right choice. Of all of them he was most appropriate to lead the great crusade however this was also his downfall as when the crusade started to decline he realised he would lose his purpose. This was when someone like Guilliman would have been more appropriate as although he wouldn't have been as good a 'War'master as many of his brothers he would have been a better empire builder which was more needed later on.

**ImAGeek**

Taffy17 wrote:
I'd argue Roboute was loyal to humanity a lot more than the Emperor. IIRC he never considered the Emperor his father.

Sanguinius was loyal to both and the Blood Angels are well known for sticking up for the little guy.

When the Emperor appointed Horus warmaster he made the right choice. Of all of them he was most appropriate to lead the great crusade however this was also his downfall as when the crusade started to decline he realised he would lose his purpose. This was when someone like Guilliman would have been more appropriate as although he wouldn't have been as good a 'War'master as many of his brothers he would have been a better empire builder which was more needed later on.

Your first point is what people are saying; Roboute was loyal to the Imperium and Humanity, Dorn was loyal to the Emperor, and Sanguinius was probably somewhere in the middle.

I agree that Horus was the right choice for Warmaster. He had the right mix of tactician and diplomat. Guilliman and the Lion might have been better from a technical standpoint but neither of them got on with enough of their brothers for it to work. The only other proper choice really was Sanguinius.

**SagesStone**

The Emperor's mistake was simple, Magnus was curious as hell about things and the Emperor's like "I know you really like to learn things, but don't learn about this" without any real explanation if I remember right.

**ImAGeek**

n0t_u wrote:
The Emperor's mistake was simple, Magnus was curious as hell about things and the Emperor's like "I know you really like to learn things, but don't learn about this" without any real explanation if I remember right.

Well, that was one of a few.