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For 4 points you can give a grey knight a force falchion, giving him +1 attack.
For 5 points you can make that knight a purifier. Then he gets +1 attack, +1 ld, soulblaze and fearless and the squad becomes a level 2 space wizard with an extra special weapon.

Not trying to be a downer but why does wargear have to be such a trap? Maybe I want my GK to dual wield because dual wielding is totally awesome bro. Guess I'm a witch cause I just got denied.

I assume you are comparing the troops choice Strike Squad versus the elites choice Purifier Squad.

IMO the strike squad itself is overcosted significantly not necessarily the wargear.

The benefits the strike squad has over it's counter part;
1) cheap per model price. Thus you can take 2 falchion models and the overall unit will be 15+ pts cheaper that the purifiers. This is a significant difference as melee units rarely if ever get into melee without loosing members.
2) Strike squads are troops choices. This means they unlock better stuff like say...purifiers! If you have the take the models anyways then 5 pts for +1 attack a couple of times is cheaper than buying a whole purifier. Also the troop choice might have ObjSec which could be a pretty big deal.
3) The reduced pts cost means you unlock special weapons at a lower cost. What is better and more consistent than a single extra Str4 attack, 4 Str7 shots.

I will repeat however that IMO the strike squads are seriously overcosted for their abilities. Heck the purifiers are overcosted as well but at least they have interesting rules that allow them to DS in the middle of stuff and light it on fire.

 ansacs wrote:
I assume you are comparing the troops choice Strike Squad versus the elites choice Purifier Squad.
2) Strike squads are troops choices. This means they unlock better stuff like say...purifiers! If you have the take the models anyways then 5 pts for +1 attack a couple of times is cheaper than buying a whole purifier. Also the troop choice might have ObjSec which could be a pretty big deal.

A Nemesis Strike Force only requires one troops slot, and using terminators to fill that slot is fluffier and more effective. So the strike squad is only useful if you're trying to make that bare minimum of points spent on troops even lower, but even if the entry cost is higher with terminators as troops you're making much better use of your points.

The strike squad may have a slightly higher chance of surviving grav fire though. And they can take a rhino.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay this is reaching but if you're playing to objectives in a small game then you may want a CA detachment with strike squads.

I still think 4 points is a lot for an extra hand weapon. Yes it's force but that's part of why you pay the premium for a GK over a regular marine to begin with. But sure it would be justified if the units themselves were cheaper.

I actually agree overall. IMO the GK troops choices are overpriced by a fairly significant margin. The nemesis strike force DS turn 1 somewhat helps to mitigate this but if you have fielded these units as a CAD then you quickly realize how inferior they are to SM. Really the only units inline with 7ed pricing in the codex are dreadknights, stormravens, libbys, and draigo.

Talking of DS that is actually where most of the pts saving for the purifiers comes from. DS is at least 30 pts on most units. Strike squads have the rule while purifiers do not. That is actually why purifiers are not particularly good.

The deepstrike from NSF is actually pretty crappy, too. You can't modify your reserves, so your army gets strung out, you don't have deepstrike protection like drop pods, and half your army can just use teleporters anyways, and you lose obsec. Not to mention you can only fit in 2 Dreadknights.

 ansacs wrote:
Really the only units inline with 7ed pricing in the codex are dreadknights, stormravens, libbys, and draigo.

Maybe landraiders.

I wouldn't deep strike purifiers even if it were possible. They should be rolling around in metal boxes frying stuff with space magic.

True. Landraiders are technically in line...except they are awful in the SM codex too, except for the formations are very high pts levels.

Actually purifiers in drop pods is one of the better units in the codex. The problem with purifiers in metal boxes is the metal used on the boxes is thinner than beer cans. Against any opponent that cares about purifier damage output they will kill the transport 24"+ from anything you want to space magic, which leaves a very expensive MEQ unit that desperately wants to get near multiple targets.

 ansacs wrote:


Actually purifiers in drop pods is one of the better units in the codex.

I only wish there were pods in the codex. I guess GK are meant to be used with allies anyway.

Haruspex wrote:
I only wish there were pods in the codex. I guess GK are meant to be used with allies anyway.

It certainly appears so from how they play and the fluff. They wouldn't actually need allies if they had DS on the purifiers at least. It would just be more risky.

GKs right now strike me as a "work in progress" codex more then anything

GKs used Drop Pods in the Omnibus stories, which pre-date the Stormraven. Not including Drop Pods in the current or past codexes yet having units without Deep Strike seems to have been a balancing decision, one which just didn't work out. Apparently, GK players are suppose to buy Rhinos and Razorbacks to large numbers, despite everything costing too much and going vehicle heavy is counter to their deployment methods in the books.

Hopefully, but most likely not, someone at GW will realize GK want to field more models, too, and the next update for GK will see lower ppm as well as free Dedicated Transports and Drop Pods available to the non-DSers.

SJ

Why are you guys complaining about GK being over costed?! they are fairly priced for what they can do compared to normal space marines.

Force weapon- you have a power weapon that can ID once activated for the entire squad!

Brotherhood of pskers- you have the ability to cast powers or just add 1 warp charge to the pool for your other powers you can cast

Storm bolter- you can shoot 2 shots at 24" and still assault after firing.

Ageis- you reroll 1's on any failed deny the witch rolls.

They also have numerous buffs against Daemons, who are a top tier list, so that is another buff... and all this for 20 ppm?! wow so over priced! 6 points just for all of that is a rip..... really need to look at what you have instead of what you DONT have...

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Why are you guys complaining about GK being over costed?! they are fairly priced for what they can do compared to normal space marines.

Force weapon- you have a power weapon that can ID once activated for the entire squad!

Brotherhood of pskers- you have the ability to cast powers or just add 1 warp charge to the pool for your other powers you can cast

Storm bolter- you can shoot 2 shots at 24" and still assault after firing.

Ageis- you reroll 1's on any failed deny the witch rolls.

They also have numerous buffs against Daemons, who are a top tier list, so that is another buff... and all this for 20 ppm?! wow so over priced! 6 points just for all of that is a rip..... really need to look at what you have instead of what you DONT have...

The problem with GK units isn't them being over cost so much as their value being loaded into the assault phase and yet they need to operate in a shooting focused meta. The turn they deep strike in or ride up in a Rhino a normal GK Strike Squad are shooting with storm bolters which are a slight improvement compared to bolters for damage output (2 shots 24" instead of rapid fire 24"). They then need to survive getting shot at in order to then be able to forfill their inner Ork and shoot+assault. The psychic powers for your standard GK units is Hammerhand and Force so its buffing their melee damage. Extra warp charges are nice but that's mainly feeding your Librarian, Purifiers, and other more impactful psykers charges than them using it for themselves. The deny from Aegis is nice but they need to be targeted while the most common powers seen are summoning or some sort of blessing which gets denied on 6s. If the GK can get into close combat then they can very easily earn their points but generally the best way for any army to deal with GK is to shoot them. GK's special shooting weapons are salvo/heavy except for the incinerator so its not ideal for non terminators to take them.

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Why are you guys complaining about GK being over costed?! they are fairly priced for what they can do compared to normal space marines.

Force weapon- you have a power weapon that can ID once activated for the entire squad!

Brotherhood of pskers- you have the ability to cast powers or just add 1 warp charge to the pool for your other powers you can cast

Storm bolter- you can shoot 2 shots at 24" and still assault after firing.

Ageis- you reroll 1's on any failed deny the witch rolls.

They also have numerous buffs against Daemons, who are a top tier list, so that is another buff... and all this for 20 ppm?! wow so over priced! 6 points just for all of that is a rip..... really need to look at what you have instead of what you DONT have...

Because they just get shot in the face like every other meq in the game right now. Scatterbikes don't give a feth about anything you listed. The GK are just losing more points (6) per scatterlaser wound than vanilla marines. If a unit's advantages don't confer an additional 6 pts of advantage, then that unit is overcosted.

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Why are you guys complaining about GK being over costed?! they are fairly priced for what they can do compared to normal space marines.

Force weapon- you have a power weapon that can ID once activated for the entire squad!

Brotherhood of pskers- you have the ability to cast powers or just add 1 warp charge to the pool for your other powers you can cast

Storm bolter- you can shoot 2 shots at 24" and still assault after firing.

Ageis- you reroll 1's on any failed deny the witch rolls.

They also have numerous buffs against Daemons, who are a top tier list, so that is another buff... and all this for 20 ppm?! wow so over priced! 6 points just for all of that is a rip..... really need to look at what you have instead of what you DONT have...

I love taking apart poorly thought out arguments.

Force weapons - Assault phase
Brotherhood of Psykers - For casting Assault based physic powers
Storm Bolter - So we can Assault after shooting, because we have to have a shadow of a chance after all with the Psycannon change.
Aegis - Great in general, but hey it is Chapter Tactics.

And 20 ppm that dies just like a 14 point model. Yes it is great we have our premium front loaded into a phase that doesn't really happen anymore. People look at the power weapon, and don't think after that. 1 attack base and I got a 25% chance of causing a wound after all the calculations.

You're probably one of those people who say "lets fix terminators by making Stormbolters SALVO!"

DaKKaLAnce wrote:Why are you guys complaining about GK being over costed?! they are fairly priced for what they can do compared to normal space marines.

Force weapon- you have a power weapon that can ID once activated for the entire squad!

Brotherhood of pskers- you have the ability to cast powers or just add 1 warp charge to the pool for your other powers you can cast

Storm bolter- you can shoot 2 shots at 24" and still assault after firing.

Ageis- you reroll 1's on any failed deny the witch rolls.

They also have numerous buffs against Daemons, who are a top tier list, so that is another buff... and all this for 20 ppm?! wow so over priced! 6 points just for all of that is a rip..... really need to look at what you have instead of what you DONT have...

First we will have to make the very distant stretch that SM TAC squads are priced appropriately for the current game. Considering that Gladius Strike Force usually comes out about even with CWE, Necrons, DA Ravenwing, and the top tier Ork lists and that this formation has almost 400 pts of extras that assumption is probably somewhat faulty.

However even if we make that assumption you are completely discounting the actual reasons to even consider taking SM TAC squads. Here are the reasons SM TAC squads are decent. Notice also that GKs don't get any of these;
*Drop Pods; These are safe, assured turn 1 DS delivery that leaves an ObjSec AV12 3 HP vehicle on an objective and ensures you should always be able to get within at worst 12". Realistically if you cannot DS + disembark within 6" you were seriously unlucky. Sure they cost 35 pts but having an AV12 ObjSec vehicle to place near or on objectives is worth at least 20 pts of that.
*Chapter Tactics: Notice how SM have mechanisms to get within 12" of the opponent. They also have abilities that let them reroll all to hit rolls (UM), reroll all missed bolter shots within half range (IF), hit and run (WS), +1 FnP and IWND vehicles (IH), etc.
*Special and combi weapons: these are the real reason to take SM TAC squads. This is why I find the logic of comparing units without good weapon upgrades to SM TAC squads to be strange. You don't take a SM TAC squad with bolters and run them across the battlefield and expect to win. That is not the fluff and it looses horribly. You scout them in vehicles or drop them in drop pods with a special weapon, combi weapon, and perhaps a grav cannon.

Consider a unit of 10 UM TAC SM [plasma, combi plas, grav cannon, drop pod] 235 pts vs 10 strike GK [swords as anything else adds more pts and makes the comparison worse] 210+ pts.
SM
+DS turn 1 100% chance
+AV12 ObjSec vehicle
+Shooting on DS will average: ~2 HP on AV12, 7 strike squad members, 3 wounds on a riptide, etc.
+Has up to 7 ablative wounds before any important models die
+Combat Squads: this means that the bolters can be grouped into a 5 member squad and the plasma/grav can shoot into something else. Also this is 3 separate ObjSec units in a single slot. This IMO is actually perhaps the most important ability in SM winning games and tournaments.

GK
+can charge something if they get in range, they cannot charge out of DS and don't have cheap assault transports but we will call that a benefit.
+resists psychic powers targeting them better...though the best powers are conjurations and buffs.
+Brotherhood of psykers: actually the only thing that is honestly good in their 6 pts a model upgrade from SM TAC squads. The amount of generated dice only gives a 50/50 shot to actually manifest even a warp 1 power but it works well in lists with actual worthwhile psykers to use them.
-DS has a 33% chance to not come in and they loose ObjSec if they want to DS turn 1.
-All of their heavy weapons have fatal flaws which make them barely usable.
-Slow Melee Unit: No charge out of DS so those assault weapons are no better than the rapid fire bolters the turn you really need to hit hard. Really this is the killer. Slow expensive melee units are a joke in the current edition.

BTW the strike squad averages 2 dead SM when they shoot the SM out of DS. The SM average 6 dead strike squad in the return fire. Adding anything to the strike squad just makes a head on comparison worse for the strike squad.


In summary the SM are taken for chapter tactics and special weapons.

Ok, you still haven't proved anything....20 points GIVES you all the rules I listed.... everything you listed cost point and isn't the base cost/base load out. GK are not over cost, they may not be able to get certain toys the SM get, but that has nothing to do with the base cost of without upgrades. GK can get drops pods since they are imperium, so that's 1 thing both can get. And they have the exact same stats , if anything GK would be better at shooting because of 2 shots at 24' (SM 2 at 12"), So more effective with the basic range weapon. GK do lack some special /heavy weapons and only have access to psycannon honestly. But we are talking base point cost for what they start out with, not new toys.

GK is more balanced , they are meant to be able to handle a CC if charged, not so much you charging with them. GK came out around the time we all thought GW was actually making armies balanced and not have some broken rule, so of course SM have access to more update /current rules and formations like Necrons and Eldar. Since GK are suppose to be more elite, they start out with better gear and rules, but that's it. SM can get cool stuff, but don't start out with better.

Purifiers are only good because of cleansing flame. I only take a strike squad because they are all that could fit in a 1500 draigo star.

GKs pay a premium in a game where free stuff gets handed out like candy. Decurion, Warhost, Gladius, and Convocations are what make GK overcosted. They aren't the only cord that is currently overcosted, they are just the one that's the subject of this thread.

SJ

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Ok, you still haven't proved anything....20 points GIVES you all the rules I listed.... everything you listed cost point and isn't the base cost/base load out. GK are not over cost, they may not be able to get certain toys the SM get, but that has nothing to do with the base cost of without upgrades. GK can get drops pods since they are imperium, so that's 1 thing both can get. And they have the exact same stats , if anything GK would be better at shooting because of 2 shots at 24' (SM 2 at 12"), So more effective with the basic range weapon. GK do lack some special /heavy weapons and only have access to psycannon honestly. But we are talking base point cost for what they start out with, not new toys.

GK is more balanced , they are meant to be able to handle a CC if charged, not so much you charging with them. GK came out around the time we all thought GW was actually making armies balanced and not have some broken rule, so of course SM have access to more update /current rules and formations like Necrons and Eldar. Since GK are suppose to be more elite, they start out with better gear and rules, but that's it. SM can get cool stuff, but don't start out with better.

You lose 20 points every time you roll a "1" or "2" or get hit with AP 3 or better. And get precious little useful in return. That's the point.The rules you listed are of limited value in 7th ed.

Well, WraithFlamers lose 42 points every time *they* roll a 1 or a 2.

But yeah, GK are a little overcosted.

They do have amazing psykic defense, and I wouldn't want to throw a Monster Mash at them, but they're just too elite to make a balanced army out of.

Best thing about. GKs is their ap3 weapons. Everywhere. Maybe some overcosted, but not horrible. Termies have a hard time right now so it'll feel rough against some armies.

So they are overcosted because the die like normal space marines? The most ridiculous thing ive ever heard. You are complaining they are over priced for having almost 25 points worth of rules for only 6 points ppm? 20 points is very reasonable for what they have stock. The codex maybe out of date with the newer detachments and rules, but the point cost for them is very fair.

"So they are overcosted because the die like normal space marines?"

Yup, pretty much. They have the same plight as normal marines. You are paying for gear and stats that usually accomplish nothing. Except GK are paying 20 pts for the privilege of getting shot.

"You are complaining they are over priced for having almost 25 points worth of rules for only 6 points ppm?"

Those rules are NOT worth 25 ppm. If you don't get into assault, they are worth practically zero.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Well, WraithFlamers lose 42 points every time *they* roll a 1 or a 2.

But yeah, GK are a little overcosted.

They do have amazing psykic defense, and I wouldn't want to throw a Monster Mash at them, but they're just too elite to make a balanced army out of.

Aren't Wraithflamers T6? Not apples to apples.

"Best thing about. GKs is their ap3 weapons"

This means nothing in most games.

You still are not making a point. Making it too CC or not , they are still force weapons and still cost about 15 point for most SM to upgrade. You are complaining about not being able to "do this" or "Do That". That has nothing to do with the cost but the utility of the codex or your tactics.

Point for point, GK are very cost for what they have stocked compared to SM.

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
You still are not making a point. Making it too CC or not , they are still force weapons and still cost about 15 point for most SM to upgrade. You are complaining about not being able to "do this" or "Do That". That has nothing to do with the cost but the utility of the codex or your tactics.

Point for point, GK are very cost for what they have stocked compared to SM.

I don't care what force weapons cost marines. 15 pts is just much more overpriced. The bottom line is that GK durability/pt is actually quite poor. Having stock equipment doesn't help you when you're dead. You think GK are getting a bargain of sorts, but I just see more points that get deleted every time they fail a save. And durability/pt has EVERYTHING to do with cost.

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
You still are not making a point. Making it too CC or not , they are still force weapons and still cost about 15 point for most SM to upgrade. You are complaining about not being able to "do this" or "Do That". That has nothing to do with the cost but the utility of the codex or your tactics.

Point for point, GK are very cost for what they have stocked compared to SM.

No, not at all. At the moment, the only units GK have that are price appropriate are GKTs, NDKs, and Librarians. Everything else in the codex could be reduced in points for better balancing. Or, GW could reduce the amount of cheap AP2 in the game, as that would balance it out, too.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
You still are not making a point. Making it too CC or not , they are still force weapons and still cost about 15 point for most SM to upgrade. You are complaining about not being able to "do this" or "Do That". That has nothing to do with the cost but the utility of the codex or your tactics.

Point for point, GK are very cost for what they have stocked compared to SM.

No, not at all. At the moment, the only units GK have that are price appropriate are GKTs, NDKs, and Librarians. Everything else in the codex could be reduced in points for better balancing. Or, GW could reduce the amount of cheap AP2 in the game, as that would balance it out, too.

SJ

You forgot wound spam. I lose more marines to mass forced saves than AP 2. Although grav is making it closer than it was before.

Wound spam? As in, the lack of ablative wounds in GK squads? Or the high points per wound per GK model?

Please clarify.

SJ

I like the previous strikers (from the previous edition). S5 shooting makes all the difference in world. That was the difference between me running 60 grey knights last edition to me just running the obligatory 5 strikers in the current iteration.