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Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Wound spam? As in, the lack of ablative wounds in GK squads? Or the high points per wound per GK model?

Please clarify.

SJ


Shooting lists forcing your units to take 50+ armor saves from 36" away. Sure, you get your saves, but at 20ppm, you are still losing 17*20 = 340 pts of dudes. And that's before they lob in the AP 2.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/30 16:09:26


 
   
Made in us
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Phoenix, AZ, USA

Martel732 wrote:
 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Wound spam? As in, the lack of ablative wounds in GK squads? Or the high points per wound per GK model?

Please clarify.

SJ


Shooting lists forcing your units to take 50+ armor saves from 36" away. Sure, you get your saves, but at 20ppm, you are still losing 17*20 = 340 pts of dudes. And that's before they lob in the AP 2.

And?

SJ

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Wound spam? As in, the lack of ablative wounds in GK squads? Or the high points per wound per GK model?

Please clarify.

SJ


Shooting lists forcing your units to take 50+ armor saves from 36" away. Sure, you get your saves, but at 20ppm, you are still losing 17*20 = 340 pts of dudes. And that's before they lob in the AP 2.

And?

SJ


I'm just stating that forcing armor saves actually causes more damage to my lists than AP 2 weapons. I see wound spam as more dangerous for 3+ armor units than AP 2.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/30 16:12:31


 
   
Made in us
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Phoenix, AZ, USA

You seem to think you can do math, so please advise us on how mass shooting is worse for PA units that for TDA units? Last I checked, PA models are cheaper on a points per model/wound basis, therefore massed fire is worse for 2+ save units than AP is for PA units. Could be wrong, so please enlighten us?

SJ

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/30 16:16:38


“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge





Commoragh (closer to the bottom)

The same goes for every SM . 3+ save is the 2nd best armour save you can get. Obviously most people don't see that or are able to get the maximum effect, but that save is better than most troops in the game. You are upset that you don't have an 'easy" button and win the game. They already have the durability that you get for a SM, but now they have a better offensive ability for only 6 points, as well as a great psker defense/offense.

You shouldn't be charging with a strike squad unless you really have no choice or have the upper hand. Hold Objectives, DS near some and just defend and let them come too you. You have other units in your army that are offensive and can clear objectives. And you can always get a drop pod to get precision /safe DS.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Saying the Eldar won the War in Heaven is like saying a child won a fight with a murderer simply because after breaking into his house, shooting his mother and father through the head, the thug took off in a car instead of finishing off the kid.


 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




I don't understand the point of this argument anymore. Some people say GK are overpriced, fair enough. Other people say they aren't overpriced compared to regular space marines. This can also be true. It depends on how much free stuff the marines are getting, though I stick to small games where it's more difficult for the new codices to bring in their freebies and their "buy this set of fifty models and win!" formations.

But the overall gist of it is that power armor isn't so good. It's more of a tax you pay for using marines/sisters than a benefit. If you can keep the cost of your basic cannon fodder down to 9p/model or less then they can be viable, any more than that means the unit is a penalty, a cross that your codex has to bear. Though GW has always treated mandatory troops as something of a "tax" unit, this becomes hilariously unbalanced when an army comes along that actually has useful troops choices. Bring on the Eldar jetbike spam.
   
Made in us
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Commoragh (closer to the bottom)

Just players wanting new rules with the current rules released.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Saying the Eldar won the War in Heaven is like saying a child won a fight with a murderer simply because after breaking into his house, shooting his mother and father through the head, the thug took off in a car instead of finishing off the kid.


 
   
Made in us
Grim Rune Priest in the Eye of the Storm





Riverside CA

I am in the camp that feels PAGKs are priced about right, it they did not get the free stuff they would be 44 points a model.
Base Marine: 14
Storm Bolter: +5 [19]
Force Weapon: +20 [39]
Psyker: +5 [44] (Figuring Pysker is a +25 point upgrade spit between 5 models]


Their major problem is the Terminators are just a better choice.

Space Wolf Player Since 1989
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 jeffersonian000 wrote:
You seem to think you can do math, so please advise us on how mass shooting is worse for PA units that for TDA units? Last I checked, PA models are cheaper on a points per model/wound basis, therefore massed fire is worse for 2+ save units than AP is for PA units. Could be wrong, so please enlighten us?

SJ


I actually don't know the cost of your TDA units. I do know that 20 pts/meq is incredibly vulnerable to massed wounds, though. If GK TDA units have 1 wound and cost more than 40 pts, then ,yes, they are even less durable against wound spam.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Anpu42 wrote:
I am in the camp that feels PAGKs are priced about right, it they did not get the free stuff they would be 44 points a model.
Base Marine: 14
Storm Bolter: +5 [19]
Force Weapon: +20 [39]
Psyker: +5 [44] (Figuring Pysker is a +25 point upgrade spit between 5 models]


Their major problem is the Terminators are just a better choice.


Are they a better choice? Terminators for space marines are god-awful. What makes GK terminators so much better?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Haruspex wrote:
I don't understand the point of this argument anymore. Some people say GK are overpriced, fair enough. Other people say they aren't overpriced compared to regular space marines. This can also be true. It depends on how much free stuff the marines are getting, though I stick to small games where it's more difficult for the new codices to bring in their freebies and their "buy this set of fifty models and win!" formations.

But the overall gist of it is that power armor isn't so good. It's more of a tax you pay for using marines/sisters than a benefit. If you can keep the cost of your basic cannon fodder down to 9p/model or less then they can be viable, any more than that means the unit is a penalty, a cross that your codex has to bear. Though GW has always treated mandatory troops as something of a "tax" unit, this becomes hilariously unbalanced when an army comes along that actually has useful troops choices. Bring on the Eldar jetbike spam.


Pretty much this.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/07/30 17:27:51


 
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge





Commoragh (closer to the bottom)

Everything dies to mass fire, so the is really an invalid argument for just GK. As for GK terminators, they are troops for 1, they can cast sanctuary and increase inv to 4++ or better. They can strike at normal Init in CC if not equipped with a TH, and all the other benefits GK have (Mlvl 1, Ageis, anti deamon). Cheaper than normal terminators i believe also.

Anymore complaints about how you cant have an "easy" button?

 Wyzilla wrote:
Saying the Eldar won the War in Heaven is like saying a child won a fight with a murderer simply because after breaking into his house, shooting his mother and father through the head, the thug took off in a car instead of finishing off the kid.


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




"Everything dies to mass fire,"

There's a huge difference in efficacy between shooting a 5 pt guardsmen in cover and a 20 pt meq. 20 pt meqs are serious liabilities in this game. I don't matter how many bells and whistles they have.

"As for GK terminators, they are troops for 1, they can cast sanctuary and increase inv to 4++ or better. They can strike at normal Init in CC if not equipped with a TH, and all the other benefits GK have (Mlvl 1, Ageis, anti deamon)."

Don't really care about any of that. The 4++ is cute, but not cute enough against grav. A lot depends on how much they cost.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/07/30 17:51:13


 
   
Made in us
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Commoragh (closer to the bottom)

There is a huge difference, and 2+ obviously can withstand more hits than a guardsman, hence the higher points cost. nothing you can really do about mass fire except get a reroll save or some sort, or have something with fnp and multi wounds. That's the best thing that can really handle mass fire.

You are arguing about an issue every army has to face, not just GK. so lowering the cost of them because you have bad experience with mass shooting is just silly.

4++ is better than a 5++, so it can increase your odds better than a normal terminator squad. You can also stack it to be a 3++ or even a 2++, but that would be sill and over done.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/30 17:55:21


 Wyzilla wrote:
Saying the Eldar won the War in Heaven is like saying a child won a fight with a murderer simply because after breaking into his house, shooting his mother and father through the head, the thug took off in a car instead of finishing off the kid.


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




"You are arguing about an issue every army has to face"

Some armies are much better at weathering the casualties, though.

" 2+ obviously can withstand more hits than a guardsman"

But can it withstand more damage per point? Absolute durability is meaningless; durability/pt is what matters.
   
Made in us
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Commoragh (closer to the bottom)

Martel732 wrote:
"You are arguing about an issue every army has to face"

Some armies are much better at weathering the casualties, though.

" 2+ obviously can withstand more hits than a guardsman"

But can it withstand more damage per point? Absolute durability is meaningless; durability/pt is what matters.


The durability has been taken in effect in the point cost, and it is fine the way it is. Some armies are better and weathering casualties, and they have their pros & cons just like everyone else. You want GK to be good at everything and cheap for the cost, you are asking for an unbalance setup. A GK is a SM who can perform CC and Psker defense/offense better and can use that to increase his abilities. If you want an army who can just cheesy through every shot , then maybe you should find a different army instead of begging for another army to get every beneficial rule for cheaper price.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Saying the Eldar won the War in Heaven is like saying a child won a fight with a murderer simply because after breaking into his house, shooting his mother and father through the head, the thug took off in a car instead of finishing off the kid.


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





27ppm t4 3+ is op.
20ppm t4 3+ is gak.

Clearly, its more complicated than that.

(Marines actually don't suffer substantially higher min troops tax than most factions. For instance, min SM is 55pts/unit. CWE is slightly cheaper at 51pts/unit, and Tau clock in at 54pts/unit I think)
   
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 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"You are arguing about an issue every army has to face"

Some armies are much better at weathering the casualties, though.

" 2+ obviously can withstand more hits than a guardsman"

But can it withstand more damage per point? Absolute durability is meaningless; durability/pt is what matters.


The durability has been taken in effect in the point cost, and it is fine the way it is. Some armies are better and weathering casualties, and they have their pros & cons just like everyone else. You want GK to be good at everything and cheap for the cost, you are asking for an unbalance setup. A GK is a SM who can perform CC and Psker defense/offense better and can use that to increase his abilities. If you want an army who can just cheesy through every shot , then maybe you should find a different army instead of begging for another army to get every beneficial rule for cheaper price.


I don't think GW takes anything into account in any points cost. And I stand by my position that 20 ppm meqs with stormbolters are very inefficient in 7th ed battlefields.
   
Made in us
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Commoragh (closer to the bottom)

Martel732 wrote:
 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"You are arguing about an issue every army has to face"

Some armies are much better at weathering the casualties, though.

" 2+ obviously can withstand more hits than a guardsman"

But can it withstand more damage per point? Absolute durability is meaningless; durability/pt is what matters.


The durability has been taken in effect in the point cost, and it is fine the way it is. Some armies are better and weathering casualties, and they have their pros & cons just like everyone else. You want GK to be good at everything and cheap for the cost, you are asking for an unbalance setup. A GK is a SM who can perform CC and Psker defense/offense better and can use that to increase his abilities. If you want an army who can just cheesy through every shot , then maybe you should find a different army instead of begging for another army to get every beneficial rule for cheaper price.


I don't think GW takes anything into account in any points cost. And I stand by my position that 20 ppm meqs with stormbolters are very inefficient in 7th ed battlefields.


Im sure you do, but everyone has a different view/opinion about everything. Everyone has different experiences in 40k, and a lot of people just read something online and automatically deem it unworthy because "this guy said so".

 Wyzilla wrote:
Saying the Eldar won the War in Heaven is like saying a child won a fight with a murderer simply because after breaking into his house, shooting his mother and father through the head, the thug took off in a car instead of finishing off the kid.


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I've murdered the GK and been murdered by Tau/Eldar/SM/Daemons enough to know why I'm beating one codex regularly and losing to the other four regularly.

One huge reason is that the GK lose lots of points in my shooting phase, which isn't nearly as true for those other lists.
   
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Been Around the Block




 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
"You are arguing about an issue every army has to face"

Some armies are much better at weathering the casualties, though.



All armies are better at weathering casualties than GK except maybe an all-powersuit farsight enclave.
This would make sense if GK had some decent offensive options, but they don't. Unless you squeeze overpriced stormravens, landraiders or dreads in there then you have nothing better than S7 AP4 at 24". So you need to get into assault to do what other armies can do to you from across the table.

If situational stuff like improved psychic defense and daemonbane are worth points, then drawbacks like the inability to use grav/melta/plasma/lascannons should be worth negative points.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/30 18:44:35


 
   
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" So you need to get into assault to do what other armies can do to you from across the table. "

And this is why I quit trying to assault with BA. Welcome to 7th.
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge





Commoragh (closer to the bottom)

You aren't playing GK right if you try to assault with everything, or even really assault with most units. This is an objective game, hold the objective and let your more offensive units push. Dreadknights are prime examples of this, they are the main units you should be aggressive with.

Stormravens are great to have and get some troops into assault (terminators /paladins are the better choice). Go in clear an objective, hold it with the said above units. Stormravens and dreadknights are there to help push and take some attention for the other units you have.

Stop trying to compare apples to oranges , and make use of what you got. GK are great when given the right player and right units for support. Drop pods will help you with some of this.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Saying the Eldar won the War in Heaven is like saying a child won a fight with a murderer simply because after breaking into his house, shooting his mother and father through the head, the thug took off in a car instead of finishing off the kid.


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
You aren't playing GK right if you try to assault with everything, or even really assault with most units. This is an objective game, hold the objective and let your more offensive units push. Dreadknights are prime examples of this, they are the main units you should be aggressive with.

Stormravens are great to have and get some troops into assault (terminators /paladins are the better choice). Go in clear an objective, hold it with the said above units. Stormravens and dreadknights are there to help push and take some attention for the other units you have.

Stop trying to compare apples to oranges , and make use of what you got. GK are great when given the right player and right units for support. Drop pods will help you with some of this.


So by your own strategy, pretty much all of the extra six points you pay for GK troopers is wasted. If you just send in DK, I don't see how they have much of a chance.
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge





Commoragh (closer to the bottom)

Martel732 wrote:
 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
You aren't playing GK right if you try to assault with everything, or even really assault with most units. This is an objective game, hold the objective and let your more offensive units push. Dreadknights are prime examples of this, they are the main units you should be aggressive with.

Stormravens are great to have and get some troops into assault (terminators /paladins are the better choice). Go in clear an objective, hold it with the said above units. Stormravens and dreadknights are there to help push and take some attention for the other units you have.

Stop trying to compare apples to oranges , and make use of what you got. GK are great when given the right player and right units for support. Drop pods will help you with some of this.


So by your own strategy, pretty much all of the extra six points you pay for GK troopers is wasted. If you just send in DK, I don't see how they have much of a chance.


if you look at the big picture, then no they are not wasted. I wont send just 1 DK, but 2 , maybe 3 if points allow. You look at things as a "Waste" because of the negative attitude , which is sadly common among most people who like to whine and complain about not getting a cheesy unit. The Strike squad holds the objective , and will more the likely do decent damage to and Objective secured units trying to take it. So I see 6 points spend very well, giving ,me all the benefits that make them useful/can be useful in certain situations that can offer occur. Try reading a book about tactics and how to use everything at its best potential. Trying reading "Art of War" by Sun Tzu. This might help you play more strategically and see how to make use of everything....

 Wyzilla wrote:
Saying the Eldar won the War in Heaven is like saying a child won a fight with a murderer simply because after breaking into his house, shooting his mother and father through the head, the thug took off in a car instead of finishing off the kid.


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I've read Art of War. But I don't need to be Sun Tzu to shoot your guys guarding the objective and then seize it after they are dead, completely bypassing their CC abilities. Also, if I table you, then nothing else matters. The GK are very tableable.

It's not just a "negative attitude" when I play it out over and over.

". I wont send just 1 DK, but 2 , maybe 3 if points allow"

I can kill three DK with BA pretty handily. I can't image what real armies do to them.

" The Strike squad holds the objective"

Having your strike squad sit on an objective is right where I want them. I'll come kill them after I've killed the rest of your list. Seems like you are dividing and conquering yourself for me.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/07/30 20:39:35


 
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge





Commoragh (closer to the bottom)

Martel732 wrote:
I've read Art of War. But I don't need to be Sun Tzu to shoot your guys guarding the objective and then seize it after they are dead, completely bypassing their CC abilities. Also, if I table you, then nothing else matters. The GK are very tableable.

It's not just a "negative attitude" when I play it out over and over.

". I wont send just 1 DK, but 2 , maybe 3 if points allow"

I can kill three DK with BA pretty handily. I can't image what real armies do to them.


I hardly doubt it. You cant even use a strike squad effectively and complain about how 30 points of upgrades is instead 6 points as "not good" , I highly doubt it. All I it would take is to kill 1 of your units and you would break and go the negative path you have been traveling. But nice try maybe pick another pissing contest you can win.

I have entered all the facts about how GK are not overcosted, so I will leave this thread so you can continue your complaint about not knowing how to use an army. Good luck to you!

 Wyzilla wrote:
Saying the Eldar won the War in Heaven is like saying a child won a fight with a murderer simply because after breaking into his house, shooting his mother and father through the head, the thug took off in a car instead of finishing off the kid.


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




" All I it would take is to kill 1 of your units and you would break and go the negative path you have been traveling"

You act like I bring any units I care about. They are all expendable to me. The lessons of playing against Eldar.
   
Made in us
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Phoenix, AZ, USA

I have no idea what most of you think you are talking about. GK use to have a rule that reduced the ability for others to attack them at range, and all of their pricing is based on that ability that no longer exists. A Mid-range/CC oriented force that costs 20-35ppm is overpriced when the exact same role is filled in other armies at 11-14ppm and come with free transports. That's not a complaint, it's a fact that was pointed out to the OP. At this time, at this point in the edition, GK players pay too much for their toys compared to almost everyone else. GK players do get a lot of cool stuff, and can do crazy tricks on the table, but those cool things and crazy stuff come at a premium. A premium that pays for a defense that doesn't exists.

And as I said before, if someone at GW would care to notice, GK players want to buy models, too. The change over from our 5th Ed codex to 7th meant that I bought no new models. None. The only thing I bought was the book. As a place holder, I wish GW had waited a bit to give us a better update. Since they didn't, we are overdue for a GK 7th Ed 2.0 codex, like the Knights got. We all know the reason is because GW has no new releases planned for the GKs, so we will just have to make due with techniques to overcome unit shortages.

Did I mention GKs are just made for Maelstrom? Gate, Shunt, Jump, Deep Strike.

SJ

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in us
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 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Everything dies to mass fire, so the is really an invalid argument for just GK. As for GK terminators, they are troops for 1, they can cast sanctuary and increase inv to 4++ or better. They can strike at normal Init in CC if not equipped with a TH, and all the other benefits GK have (Mlvl 1, Ageis, anti deamon). Cheaper than normal terminators i believe also.

Anymore complaints about how you cant have an "easy" button?


Dude everything you are saying is just plain wrong...

GKT cannot cast sanctuary, they cannot access storm shields, they don't get Iron halos. They have a trade off at not being able to strike at I1 and that is they are natively STR 4 THAT IS CALLED A TRADE OFF NOT A BUFF. The Aegis is chapter tactics essentially and as said is gak because people use Blessings and Summoning. The best thing is Hammerhand.

You just hate Grey Knights for whatever reason man. Stormbolters have always been overcosted, and you yourself said you DON'T WANT TO CHARGE WITH A STRIKE SQUAD, even though they need to, to even have a chance of making their points back. Which means the force weapons do gak at the end of the day.

Also no massed fire hurts Grey Knights more because they have the same protection as less expensive models AND have less on the field. This wouldn't be a problem if there was an alpha strike formation but GW gave that to the Ultramarine codex.

Your arguments continually flip-flop so lets cut to the chase.

How about you tell me why Grey Knights are good?


EDIT: You know what? You just said "Git Gud" I'm done with you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/30 22:48:19


 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
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 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
GK are great when given the right player and right units for support. Drop pods will help you with some of this.


Okay so you agree that they need allies to be effective. I think everyone else is arguing the shortcomings of an all-GK army.
   
Made in us
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Riverside CA

Martel732 wrote:
 Anpu42 wrote:
I am in the camp that feels PAGKs are priced about right, it they did not get the free stuff they would be 44 points a model.
Base Marine: 14
Storm Bolter: +5 [19]
Force Weapon: +20 [39]
Psyker: +5 [44] (Figuring Pysker is a +25 point upgrade spit between 5 models]


Their major problem is the Terminators are just a better choice.


Are they a better choice? Terminators for space marines are god-awful. What makes GK terminators so much better?

Better than other Terminators, only in the Cool Factor or when fighting deamons.
TAGK vs PAGK they are a better choice due to pricing and 2+/5++ Save

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