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If you were a Primarch, would you have supported the Codex Astartes when it was introduced? Why or why not?

Well, I agree with reformations like no legion building, but I wouldn't want some other primarch telling me how to run my marines. I'd probably take the Russ approach.

Considering that each Primarch just had a front row seat to the dangers of too-large Legions, it is a wonder to me that any would oppose it for a reason other than foolishness or pride.

No, because having legions isn't what caused the Heresy. having dangerously unstable man-children like Angron, Lorgar in control of your galaxy-spanning armies is what caused the Heresy.

Hard to say. The Codex was created by Roboute and despite the stereotype of the lawful stupid ultramarine he did know what he was doing when making the book. so probably a little of both. I would adopt the text but make absolutely sure that they know that it is a book of tactics and strategy not a rule book and that it can be broken if the situation merits.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
No, because having legions isn't what caused the Heresy. having dangerously unstable man-children like Angron, Lorgar in control of your galaxy-spanning armies is what caused the Heresy.

I can't exalt this enough. The source of the Horus Heresy wasn't the Legions, but the drooling idiots leading them. The Horus Heresy ironically did a very good job of showing the Emperor who was actually a competent, sane, somewhat mature man compared to the traitors who turned to the Chaos Gods because "muh statue" or "daddy didn't hug me enough".

While the Legions weren't the cause of the Heresy, their massive amounts of power did a lot more damage than a chapter could've done in their stead.

I would love to say I would go against the Codex Astartes as it changed how marines would be used in future engagements and at the same time cause a halt to any more significant territorial gains that mankind would make. However as detrimental as that may be the power of a Space Marine Legion is too great to comprehend. The Horus Heresy showed us that Primarchs and marines are corruptible.

The question you have to ask yourself is that do you take the chance of a second civil war lead by space marines legions happen again? How can you guarantee that the loyalist space marine legions will remain loyal?

From a practical standpoint, no. The enemies of the Imperium will not restrict themselves to meaningless standards and regulation in their task to destroy humanity.
Neither should we.

From a survival standpoint, yes. As this imaginary Primarch I cannot allow the Imperium to fall into further civil war and weakness with open rebellion.

So follow the letter of the law while breaking the principle of the codex and taking every loophole you can find. Straight lawyer it.

I'd support it.
Separating power and preventing a single individual from having absolute power of a Legion would be pretty important.
Seriously, imagine someone like Huron in command of a Legion. Every Chapter Master who falls shows that the Codex was a good idea, because they didn't take a Legion with them.

I don't agree with seeing the codex as a comprehensive manual, but more like what Guilliman intended: a book of advice to supplement a commander's tactics, with room for individual flair.

Hell no. If I hadn't flipped during the Heresy, I'm not flipping now. And Roberto can take a piss, because he isn't the boss of me. He wasn't even an active participant in the war against the traitors and has no standing to mandate anything.

 PhillyT wrote:
Hell no. If I hadn't flipped during the Heresy, I'm not flipping now. And Roberto can take a piss, because he isn't the boss of me. He wasn't even an active participant in the war against the traitors and has no standing to mandate anything.

He did have a mandate. The High Lords of Terra gave him one.

Does anyone know if the Codex Astartes stricts the actual number of Chapters? If it doesn't you could in theory have the same number of Space Marines overall as the Legions did and suffer no real drawbacks; the Legions split their forces like 40K Chapters do and they combined for large offensives much like 40K Chapters also do. Seems to me that what really halted Imperial expansion were further civil wars (such as Bucharis and Vandire) and increasing xeno threats. The Great Crusade didn't have to contend with the sort of enemies the Imperium does in 40K.

From a practical point of view the Codex Astartes strikes me as a good idea. It also took into account that while the Loyalist Primarchs were loyal they would not live forever and subsequent successors may be temptable. Having said that were I a Primarch I too may have been offended by the suggestion.

to an extent. guilliman had solid points when it comes to the scope of power and degradation of gene seed due to mass requirements. I would support it, but 1,000 is a much to small number, and it should never be viewed as infallible. Limit the marine chapters to 10,000, and focus on tactical flexibility in the codex.

I say yay, but if I were a primarch, i'd negotiate for more flexibility. No standing military force survives without flexibility. While it's true that a lot of Chapters have a lot of leeway and can pretty much do whatever they want, the outside view of things seems to bring a lot of influence into how a lot of chapters do things. The things a chapter can and can't do should be more flexible. At the same time, the actions they can't take, and the rights that other members of the Imperium have must be clearly defined and well advertised.

I would fully support the Codex Astartes as a Primarch, though my implementation of it would be akin to the Dark Angel's and their "Legion Building". The division would be more so that a large area could more easily be covered by the forces, and each Command would have its autonomy to go about dealing with more minor threats.

Keeping them bonded and able to work together would be fundamental in preventing things such as the Black Crusades from posing as much a threat, rather than a bunch of Chapters squabling over who gets to be in charge or arguing because one Primarch punched out the other ten thousand years ago, they would be Brothers bound to the same Inner Circle if you will.

I would have argued how ever to have more men, though I would have skirted around the 10 Companies of 100 Marines thing with a simple truth. Scouts are by definition not full Battle Brothers, they do not become so until leaving the 10th Company and being implanted with the Black Carapace. So by having 10 Companies of Full Battle Brothers and one or more of Scouts we'd get around the numbers issue.

Another way I would take from the Dark Angels is their use of Company Veterans, rather than piling all my Veterans in one Company I would want them spread among the Companies so that their experience can count for more.

As for the Tactical Flexibility of the Codex? It's prefectly Flexible, it was designed to be Flexible. So we'd use that flexibility, the right plan for the right mission, if things go wrong you have other tactics available in the Codex, know them use them, improvise when needed.

Guiliman himself stated that he was not infallible when it came to things and encouraged Initiative among his Officers.

I'd have to say that I would opt for the Dark angels or Space Wolf solution, that is officially breaking down into chapters, but still maintaining the links and authority over the successor chapters, or forming "great companies" of emperor knows how many marines in reality.
Plus a good strong auxillary of chapter serfs.

Its not that I would defy the creation of chapters per se, as I get the rationale, namely the transition from a conquering, advancing juggernought of a crusade force to a defensive "firefighting" rapid deployment role.

The military existentially went from a crusading "reconquista" force to a defensive preservation role. (obviously I appreciate that there are still crusades, but no great crusades).

The other point others have mentioned is that you really can't trust anybody in the Imperium. Your best buddy may over time become compromised or turn traitor,... taking his legion/ fleet/ armies/ subordinates with him. There has to be a safeguard against someone taking a whole legion with them if they turn traitir (which had happened in spectacular fashion).

It was not just the legions which were the issue naturally,... imperial guard seperated from imperial navy for example. In theory nobody can really act with complete self sufficiency or without the support of some other auxiallary for an extended period of time.

The one ridiculous point I do take issue with, is the number of 1000 marines. A totally ridiculous number, pathetically small by military standards (even super post human space warrior standards). Such a number could never survive the level of attrition, considering the scale of warfare in WH40k. Let alone the slow recruitment methods.

Vulkan opposed it, which is a strong argument for me. I'd probably consider Vulkan to be the best of the Primarchs, so if I were the mythical eleventh Primarch, I'd probably come down against it too, although like Vulkan I'd probably give in in the end.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
As for the Tactical Flexibility of the Codex? It's prefectly Flexible, it was designed to be Flexible. So we'd use that flexibility, the right plan for the right mission, if things go wrong you have other tactics available in the Codex, know them use them, improvise when needed.

Not tactical flexibility. The astartes were created as a galaxy conquering force, and afterwards, were reformed for the role of strategic/tactical insertion into extremely hostile environments for high risk missions. As such, I can assume their "tactical flexibility" doesn't require my opinion. Their diplomacy and resources at their disposal requires rethinking though. There needs to be established laws for diplomacy between chapters, between the Mechanicus, and between other Imperial forces. There's lots of stories about chapters being excommunicated because of resources being comandeered, for petty slights, breeches of codes and ethics that the opposite sides weren't aware of. A lot of Chapters have feuds, and a lot turn traitor, or go renegade because there were no diplomatic standards that people had to be measured by. Or perhaps some were in place but have been forgotten or ignored, in which case they need to be advertised, and reminded of. As it is, it seems most chapters carry on with their lives, dealing with others based on the other parties perception of them. It might be easier, more comfortable, but very inefficient when it comes to the larger picture.

 PhillyT wrote:
Hell no. If I hadn't flipped during the Heresy, I'm not flipping now. And Roberto can take a piss, because he isn't the boss of me. He wasn't even an active participant in the war against the traitors and has no standing to mandate anything.

Yeah. I'd tell him to go slick his hair back, I'll be outside killing xenos and banging his girlfriend at the same time.

I think the best answer is "Cute" then peacing out with your strike cruisers to the fringe and turning off your astropaths.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Hell no. If I hadn't flipped during the Heresy, I'm not flipping now. And Roberto can take a piss, because he isn't the boss of me. He wasn't even an active participant in the war against the traitors and has no standing to mandate anything.

He did have a mandate. The High Lords of Terra gave him one.

Roberto could have told the High Lords anything. He held all the strings and could have told them to keep the legions as they were if he wanted.

I'm not sure why any primarch would agree to split his forces into a mess of disunified formations smaller than a pre-heresy Company.

It's funny because Guilliman said after his own work was flawed and should be taken as guidelines (As far as tactica and chapter organization) but the rest was laid out for a reason.

Short answer, yes. The Codex has a lot of valuable information, advice, tactics and strategy to offer.

Long answer: yes, but not as a sacred tome the way it's viewed by many Imperial military minds. Like the Bible it has many contradictory pronouncements when taken out of context, and some whose contact is completely lost to modern minds. Unlike the Bible it makes no claim to divine inspiration (though in M41 many make claims of divine inspiration on it's behalf). It is the work of an incredible mind, a Primarch, augmented by 10,000 years of commentary. No more, no less.

It should be viewed as a guide to action, modified by circumstances and resources, and not quoted as rigid dogma.

And of course that line of thinking would get you shot as a heretic.

My two cents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@harriticus: Because those Primarchs had just survived the Horus Heresy. They knew the danger of having too much power concentrated in too few hands. It's the same reason fleet control was stripped from Imperial Army commanders. They did not want a repeat of that horror.

And when Goge Vandire concentrated too much power in his own mad hands some centuries alter you got the Reign of Blood, which kind of proved they were right.

My two cents.

OldSod wrote:
I'd have to say that I would opt for the Dark angels or Space Wolf solution, that is officially breaking down into chapters, but still maintaining the links and authority over the successor chapters, or forming "great companies" of emperor knows how many marines in reality.
Plus a good strong auxillary of chapter serfs.

200 Marines in the largest of the Great Companies, 187 in the second-largest. The rest fall somewhere under that.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
No, because having legions isn't what caused the Heresy. having dangerously unstable man-children like Angron, Lorgar in control of your galaxy-spanning armies is what caused the Heresy.

I can't exalt this enough. The source of the Horus Heresy wasn't the Legions, but the drooling idiots leading them. The Horus Heresy ironically did a very good job of showing the Emperor who was actually a competent, sane, somewhat mature man compared to the traitors who turned to the Chaos Gods because "muh statue" or "daddy didn't hug me enough".

Careful, Horus had defensible reasons to do what he did. Correct or not is subject to ones discretion but certainly defensible.
His situation is completely unique to the emotions we deal with. It's impossible to be truly empathetic to a man of his power in a subordinate position to a man who "made" you.

I think certain Primarch's intentions could be fairly labeled immature though. Lorgar specifically has never struck me as a reasonable person.

If it wasn't the Primarchs, it would have been someone else at some point. A single Space Marine Chapter can be put down with comparative ease, especially when compared to a full-strength Legion Astartes.

While it was not the Legions that caused the Heresy, they were why the Heresy was so terribly destructive.

 Aijec wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
No, because having legions isn't what caused the Heresy. having dangerously unstable man-children like Angron, Lorgar in control of your galaxy-spanning armies is what caused the Heresy.

I can't exalt this enough. The source of the Horus Heresy wasn't the Legions, but the drooling idiots leading them. The Horus Heresy ironically did a very good job of showing the Emperor who was actually a competent, sane, somewhat mature man compared to the traitors who turned to the Chaos Gods because "muh statue" or "daddy didn't hug me enough".

Careful, Horus had defensible reasons to do what he did. Correct or not is subject to ones discretion but certainly defensible.
His situation is completely unique to the emotions we deal with. It's impossible to be truly empathetic to a man of his power in a subordinate position to a man who "made" you.

I think certain Primarch's intentions could be fairly labeled immature though. Lorgar specifically has never struck me as a reasonable person.

Wat. By Graham McNeil's usual "stellar" writing (and by stellar I mean being a laughable hack who can't even write a single, working purely by building up cardboard cutouts that aren't even two dimensional) Horus purely fell to Chaos because of the daft manipulations of Erebus. It wasn't even drawn out or complex, it was something a mentally challenged child would have seen through and called bs on. Erebus comes down to Horus in the dreamscape disguised as the recently slain champion of Horus. Horus later comes to the realization that this is all a complete lie yet STILL trusts Erebus blindly even as his own brother, Magnus, comes screaming in THIS IS A LIE, YOU'RE BEING MANIPULATED. Finally the thing that cements his turn to the Chaos Gods is seeing that he doesn't have a statue on a shrine world.

And then he makes a snap decision while barely thinking of anything. This isn't the action of a reasonable person, this is the action of a mentally crippled human being. I'd feel safe replacing Horus with a normal mortal human being, even a child, safe in the knowledge that they would not be nearly as big of a fething moron to buy the bridge Erebus sold Horus. The only Primarchs who have a fall that is believable are Angron and Curze, because they were already so crazy that they were fully beyond rational thought at that point.

But for Horus, Horus is more petty, immature, and fething stupid than every single human being I have ever met in life. Even the people I know who got DUI's wouldn't be nearly dumb enough to buy Erebus' bridge unless they were already inebriated.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Aijec wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
No, because having legions isn't what caused the Heresy. having dangerously unstable man-children like Angron, Lorgar in control of your galaxy-spanning armies is what caused the Heresy.

I can't exalt this enough. The source of the Horus Heresy wasn't the Legions, but the drooling idiots leading them. The Horus Heresy ironically did a very good job of showing the Emperor who was actually a competent, sane, somewhat mature man compared to the traitors who turned to the Chaos Gods because "muh statue" or "daddy didn't hug me enough".

Careful, Horus had defensible reasons to do what he did. Correct or not is subject to ones discretion but certainly defensible.
His situation is completely unique to the emotions we deal with. It's impossible to be truly empathetic to a man of his power in a subordinate position to a man who "made" you.

I think certain Primarch's intentions could be fairly labeled immature though. Lorgar specifically has never struck me as a reasonable person.

Wat. By Graham McNeil's usual "stellar" writing (and by stellar I mean being a laughable hack who can't even write a single, working purely by building up cardboard cutouts that aren't even two dimensional) Horus purely fell to Chaos because of the daft manipulations of Erebus. It wasn't even drawn out or complex, it was something a mentally challenged child would have seen through and called bs on. Erebus comes down to Horus in the dreamscape disguised as the recently slain champion of Horus. Horus later comes to the realization that this is all a complete lie yet STILL trusts Erebus blindly even as his own brother, Magnus, comes screaming in THIS IS A LIE, YOU'RE BEING MANIPULATED. Finally the thing that cements his turn to the Chaos Gods is seeing that he doesn't have a statue on a shrine world.

And then he makes a snap decision while barely thinking of anything. This isn't the action of a reasonable person, this is the action of a mentally crippled human being. I'd feel safe replacing Horus with a normal mortal human being, even a child, safe in the knowledge that they would not be nearly as big of a fething moron to buy the bridge Erebus sold Horus. The only Primarchs who have a fall that is believable are Angron and Curze, because they were already so crazy that they were fully beyond rational thought at that point.

But for Horus, Horus is more petty, immature, and fething stupid than every single human being I have ever met in life. Even the people I know who got DUI's wouldn't be nearly dumb enough to buy Erebus' bridge unless they were already inebriated.

Immature isn't the word I would use to describe Horus' reaction to the dark whispers Erebus put into the Warmasters ear. There are many other words that come to mind though haha.
While everything mentioned in your post is true there are many canon sources citing various reasons amounting to his betrayal.

I feel the Horus Heresy was a more balanced conflict than most interpreted it to be. It's less bad vs. good than first glance

I would've thrown a hissy fit and flung the book dramatically at Roboute before screaming petulantly "YOU WEREN'T HERE!" before exiting stage right, cloak billowing behind me.

The problem would be the concentration of that amount of power in any pair of hands, especially emotionally stunted superhumans bred for war. While a 1000 SMs is too small, tens of thousands is too much. Just imagine if Lufgt Huron convinced a Legion or three 10,00-strong Chapters. Things could've gone way worse.

 PhillyT wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Hell no. If I hadn't flipped during the Heresy, I'm not flipping now. And Roberto can take a piss, because he isn't the boss of me. He wasn't even an active participant in the war against the traitors and has no standing to mandate anything.

He did have a mandate. The High Lords of Terra gave him one.

Roberto could have told the High Lords anything. He held all the strings and could have told them to keep the legions as they were if he wanted.

The High Lords were unlikely to let the Legions stand as they were. They told Guilliman to reform them for a reason. To act against them would have been treason.