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I'm writing a novel set in the 40k universe, and I was hoping Black Library would publish it. One of my main characters is an Ork, but I'm worried that my audience won't like the Ork as anything other then an antagonist, because of the natural bloodlust all Orks share. The thing is, I don't want this character to be an antagonist, but he only fits Orks. So I suppose my question is this: is it at all possible for an Ork society to maintain some code of honor or even a basic understanding of right and wrong? Is this at all fluffy?

And while we are on the subject, how far does black library even let you take creative license with their lore?

I do not think 'good' or 'evil' are relevant concepts to Orks. Similar, 'honour' in the human sense is again not a relevant concept. There are Ork mercenaries, so you could direct them whatever way you want, but at the end of the day they just want a good scrap and maybe some teeth.

They can. They just don't really care

Orks only understand strength. Being strong, being cunning, being "Orky" are good qualities to have. If two Orks are having a dispute whoever beats the other in a fight is the one that was correct.

I understand that, I guess what I am getting at is; Can Orks put a system of laws or some form of code of conduct together for nothing other than keeping a society together? See, the character is the Warboss of a Freebooter band of mercenaries, which has grown into more of a big city. wouldn't they need something of a code other than 'the bigger guy is right' to sustain their society?

I'm just afraid that my human readers won't like a guy who completely disregards any semblance of goodness.

They're too simple to. Can animals understand good and evil?

 Lazzamore wrote:
Can Orks put a system of laws or some form of code of conduct together for nothing other than keeping a society together?

They have a code. The big guy is always right. If the Boss says you're not shooting near the airlocks unless you want to get shot, well, he's the boss. If that seems wrong to you it's always possible to stand up and challenge him.

But orks don't fight about everything. Even the Warboss doesn't hit his meks over the head and demand kustom-built weapons, he pays like everyone else (but might get a discount for showing off that snazzy gun). And not every challenge has to be a fight - two meks could compete by building exploding gubbins, two boyz might see who brings back the finer trophy and so on.

@Harriticus: Hm... I never thought of it that way. They talk like people, but that does actually fit!

@Spetulhu: Ah, thank you! I never thought of it that way either. I'll take it!

 Lazzamore wrote:
I'm writing a novel set in the 40k universe, and I was hoping Black Library would publish it. One of my main characters is an Ork, but I'm worried that my audience won't like the Ork as anything other then an antagonist, because of the natural bloodlust all Orks share. The thing is, I don't want this character to be an antagonist, but he only fits Orks. So I suppose my question is this: is it at all possible for an Ork society to maintain some code of honor or even a basic understanding of right and wrong? Is this at all fluffy?

And while we are on the subject, how far does black library even let you take creative license with their lore?

I think it would be ok to have an Ork as the protagonist because most of the fans of 40k already know that the Orks do not think the same way that modern day humans do and their for will give their actions a little leeway even if they themselves would not condone their actions. Many people are fans of the Chaos Space Marines and they do lots of sick crap but people know they are not good people. Now if you want people to empathise with the protagonist that will be more difficult if you do not show the Ork's train of "thought".

Remember that in its own way Orks do have a sense of honor though it is very much their own. As others have said in their Kultur who ever is biggest and who ever wins is in the right and those that are smaller and weaker fall in line or challenge who ever is in charge. These are all good things to examine if you are writing a story from a Ork perspective.

In order to maintain a large society like you are suggesting the boss would likely need something to focus the lower Orks energy on rather than fighting each other. Usually this is in the form of another enemy somewhere.

I'd suggest reading the lore behind the Gorkamorka spin off game (which was awesome btw). Essentially it delves into an Ork hulk crashlanding onto the planet, attempting to rebuild their ship only to forget along the way and end up building a city. They compete a lot around who should be building what, and eventually become sidetracked into building idols to Gork and Mork (and fighting about who is who).

Might be helpful background reading for further fleshing out what a stable ork city would be like, and develop your own take on orkish kultur.

Keep us all posted - quite a lot of Ork fans here

Orks understand might is right. You might pay them, bribe them, whatever, but if they change their mind or feel they do not want to do something, then the only method of really persuading them is to beat them into submission.

They also have a concept of what is proper Orky behavior. That is why Chaos worshipping Orks and Genestealer infected Orks are relatively rare albeit possible. The deviant behavior of these Orks is picked up by others and they are ostracized at best or attacked at worst.

 Lazzamore wrote:
I understand that, I guess what I am getting at is; Can Orks put a system of laws or some form of code of conduct together for nothing other than keeping a society together? See, the character is the Warboss of a Freebooter band of mercenaries, which has grown into more of a big city. wouldn't they need something of a code other than 'the bigger guy is right' to sustain their society?

I'm just afraid that my human readers won't like a guy who completely disregards any semblance of goodness.

laws as such are unecessary, Orks have an inbuilt understanding of their own ideals, cunning, brutal, fast, big, strong, bravado etc etc are 'good' anything else isn't evil though, just not orky, not right, a bit rubbish by their own standards

Also Ork society does not need to be 'held together' it is a purpose built war machine and if the Warboss is the Warboss then they'll listen to him just because, if someone challenges and beats the warboss they listen to him because well look he's the new warboss now

Orks are actually very simple to understand, they hold very clear concepts in high regard and simply think everything else is just not as strong

good and evil are ideas that are not cut and dry. For example, a prius owner might see a pickup truck and evil and planet killing where as a pick up truck owner might see a decade of toxic waste on 4 wheels. Its really all in the eye of the beholder. Orks more or less probably see everything like a 2 year old serial killer...fun and bright, with the potential of a good fight.

"good" "evil" are generally considered to be human concepts. We have these seemingly instinctual feelings of right and wrong (such as how most people know that it is intrinsically wrong to commit murder or rape), but, at the same time, the society in which we grow up in determines our views upon right and wrong as well. In Ork society, it's all instinct - their "right" is the biggest, the baddest, the Gorkiest, the Morkiest. Their "wrong" is the weak, the strange, the weird, that which is unlike the rest of Ork society. They don't have an issue with you being cunnin' so long as you're also brutal - strength is essential. However, they also have a seemingly instinctual understanding of that which is "wrong" and doesn't belong anywhere near Ork society, such as Chaos.

It's a very simple Venn Diagram. There is the "good" circle which is "All the things that are Orky" and then there is the "evil" circle, which is everything else. These two circles overlap nowhere.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's a very simple Venn Diagram. There is the "good" circle which is "All the things that are Orky" and then there is the "evil" circle, which is everything else. These two circles overlap nowhere.

I don't think it's so much evil as just "not Orky" and thus a bit rubbish

War Kitten wrote:
They can. They just don't really care

This!

It just depend how the 'umies look at it, to an ork life is about more dakka, better fights, and going faster.

 Harriticus wrote:
They're too simple to. Can animals understand good and evil?

I disagree. They are not nearly that simple. They can understand much more than what you are implying.

Could an Ork "cheat" perhaps. Even apes have a concept of unfairness. An Ork works his way up the hierarchy with assassinations rather than confronting them.

Of course Orks can "cheat". That's entirely part of being kunnin'.

Yeah exactly, they could certainly manipulate the situation to increase their position although eventually, they would need to establish their position by force.

For what it's worth. Blood Axes are typically considered "un Orky" due to the the amount of structure & tactical prowess they show on the battlefield. It would not be uncommon to see a clan of blood axes marching in perfect unison, thus, a city of blood axes would probably be somewhat more structured than your typical orks. They also deal with humans & other races on a regular basis for trade and what not, which would probably make them somewhat more sophisticated. Maybe working some of their lore into your story would help tie it all together?

Dealing with humans only makes you sophisticated from a human POV. Same with "good" and "evil". These are relative and subjective terms, they do not exist as absolutes.

Orks have a very good and strong sense of good and evil.
Good = green, fast and loud with more dakka and lots of fighting.
Evil = unorky, slow and sneaky with not enuff dakka and no fighting.

So yes, while Orks can and do have rules, laws and moral concepts, they will be very different from what we humans consider good. They are aliens after all, they should think like aliens, not like 21st century Western humans.

From any human view, no, Orks cannot understand the concepts of good or evil. Now, humans don't really handle them well either, outside of the broadest strokes, but asking an Ork about good vs. evil is like asking a human about ultraviolet light vs. infrared light: it's simply not something we are wired to detect or notice, let along care about.

to oversimplify, most morality sets up good and evil to show people how to live their lives. That sort of uncertainty about life is not something orks are burdened with. They have far greater social and personal instincts that guide them. In short, they are not existential beings.

Orks do not seem to be concerned about death. They do not mourn their dead, and they do not fear their own demise. that strips a lot of existential dread out of a sentient being.

Now, don't presume that they are stupid. They are clever, and can build highly complex machines, so they are not dumb. Much of that skill appears to be genetically coded, thanks to their creation as artificial life.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Orks have a very good and strong sense of good and evil.
Good = green, fast and loud with more dakka and lots of fighting.
Evil = unorky, slow and sneaky with not enuff dakka and no fighting.

So yes, while Orks can and do have rules, laws and moral concepts, they will be very different from what we humans consider good. They are aliens after all, they should think like aliens, not like 21st century Western humans.

EXCUSE ME! sneaking is cunning and cunning is very orky

GAdvance wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Orks have a very good and strong sense of good and evil.
Good = green, fast and loud with more dakka and lots of fighting.
Evil = unorky, slow and sneaky with not enuff dakka and no fighting.

So yes, while Orks can and do have rules, laws and moral concepts, they will be very different from what we humans consider good. They are aliens after all, they should think like aliens, not like 21st century Western humans.

EXCUSE ME! sneaking is cunning and cunning is very orky

No. To Orks, cunning is punching your enemy in the face when he isn't looking as opposed to punching him when he is looking. Being sneaky is being cowardly, using things like camouflage or tactics (Which is why Blood Axes are generally considered "bad" by other Orks). (unless of course these sneaky methods lead to more and more brutal fights, that would make them cunning instead of sneaky)
In general, with Orks ethics you need to ask the question "Does this allow me to do more fighting or make me more effective in a fight?"
If the answer is yes, the thing in question is morally good.
If the answer is no, the thing is morally bad.

So taking the Blood Axe use of camouflage as an example, most Orks consider it bad because it hides them from their enemies and therefore hinders, rather than helps them getting into fights. The Blood Axes on the other hand argue that by not being seen, they can be more effective in combat, and therefore the use of camouflage is good.

Orks are huge fans of sneakiness as long as at the end of all that sneaking and cunning, someone gets covered in blood.

"Green iz good, so iz fightin' an' winnin'.
Iz always bad ta not have enough choppy or dakka."