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It's been clearly noted that people hate on eldar a lot but yet lists like the one that won the NOVA GT people seem to be fine with. Clearly theres a issue here.

And what won the NOVA? I don't keep up with tournaments, so I wouldn't know.

After they nerfed D weapons, switched all games to kill points a deathstar list won it, I think.

Unit is 1391pts and is;
Wolf lord w/TW SS TH with 2 wolves
3 iron priests in TWs with 4 cyberwolves each.
6 ravenwing knight command with 1 apothecary
Chaplain on bike
3 level 2 librarians on bikes

28 models.

This is pretty much the whole army, the rest was scouts

Dman137 wrote:
Unit is 1391pts and is;
Wolf lord w/TW SS TH with 2 wolves
3 iron priests in TWs with 4 cyberwolves each.
6 ravenwing knight command with 1 apothecary
Chaplain on bike
3 level 2 librarians on bikes

28 models.

This is pretty much the whole army, the rest was scouts

Okay, yeah. Whats so surprising about this?

Makumba wrote:
After they nerfed D weapons, switched all games to kill points a deathstar list won it, I think.

I thought NOVA was doing objective-scoring missions? If its kill-points all the time, then I don't think I want to try to go next year.

Hes trying to argue its just as broken as Eldar, if not moreso, therefore people should stop complaining about Eldar.

What hes missing is that Nova GT has a different meta than the game at large, in that they use what can really only be described as house rules in an attempt to balance the game, and as such its not really comparable to the games he plays with his friends.

Also, its an 1850pt tournament, so 'the rest is all scouts' means that almost 500 points of the list was invested in scouts, which I dont think anyone will really complain about (scouts are good, but not broken).

Beyond that, he also doesn't mention that the list is constructed from *THREE* Detachments, whereas Eldar cheese comes from a standalone codex.

Nova had highlander rules so it hamstrung eldar spam options and no there were msu units not only scouts but tacts in rhino from both detachments .. If it would be itc event demon's or eldar would win ..
weeman just stop trolling plus epic dice tosser like you would win anyhow . Explain why you didn't participate ??

Grubass wrote:
Nova raA highlander rules so it hamstrung eldar spam options ..options and no there were msu units not only scouts but tacts in rhino from both detachments .. If it would be itc event demon's or eldar would win ..
weeman just stop trolling plus epic dice tosser like you would win anyhow anyhow. Explain why you didn't participate ??

Because they told him he wasn't allowed to bring 3 wraithknights and 30-40 Scat bikes.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Because they told him he wasn't allowed to bring 3 wraithknights and 30-40 Scat bikes.

That's basically what is happening. Unfortunately casual players aren't so lucky...they have to be their own "bad cop" to keep out OP armies.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Because they told him he wasn't allowed to bring 3 wraithknights and 30-40 Scat bikes.

That's basically what is happening. Unfortunately casual players aren't so lucky...they have to be their own "bad cop" to keep out OP armies.

The absolute best Player as far as sportsmanship and humor/fun in my area is an Eldar Player and he is without a doubt the BEST player to play against. He will specifically tailor his list to fight you, and by that I mean he won't bring Cheese ever and will play some of hte worst units in the codex to make it a fun game. If you bring some major cheese he might pull out some Scat bikes, but otherwise they are 1/3 Heavy weapon bikers.

We also have 1-2 annoying little ***** that play Eldar and actually insult players who won't play them, "What are you scared your going to get beaten?" "Grow some balls and fight me". They have started showing up less frequently because they will literally sit and watch 8-12 other people play, sometimes with another person in the room who wants to play but refuses to play against them.

My point is, if you play the "bad Cop" card long enough they will either go away or they will stop being WAAC TFG Eldar players Either way you don't have to waste your time losing a game from Turn 1.

There are worse lists then OP eldar lists but that doesn't make OP eldar lists more fun to play against. Also for reasons I don't understand most tournaments rig their game with "balancing" restrictions that favour one one type of horrible list over other horrible lists. Nova's just seems to like this cheese more then the other cheese.

Welp. There's a couple of minutes I won't get back. C'est la vie.

0/10 troll thread.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Dman137 wrote:
Unit is 1391pts and is;
Wolf lord w/TW SS TH with 2 wolves
3 iron priests in TWs with 4 cyberwolves each.
6 ravenwing knight command with 1 apothecary
Chaplain on bike
3 level 2 librarians on bikes

28 models.

This is pretty much the whole army, the rest was scouts

(Grabs Popcorn)

400 points of scouts is a lot more than what people would consider normal, and definitely worth mentioning. It wasn't necessarily this list that won NOVA. It was the usual suspects of 2+ re-rollable, Invisibility, and a really good player that knows how to use their list to counter their opponent.

NOVA does not use Highlander comp; it restricts how many sources from which a player can build their army. Personally, I disagree with some of NOVA's house rules (multi-trackers work in overwatch, blasts affect all levels, no nerf to invisibility) and feel like their ban on all superheavies goes too far and their changes to D-weapons don't go far enough. I prefer the ITC FAQ, and don't know enough about the Adepticon, LVO, and BAO rules to comment on them. What NOVA's missions boiled down to was traditional objectives for the primary and limited kill points (i.e. choose this unit and score a point if you kill it) for secondary. The ban on superheavies basically meant that a deathstar of some sort would take the win.

Do you know why Eldar have not been curbstomping every tournament since their new book was released? It's because of two simple reasons. First, many TO groups have adopted or changed their house rules in ways to specifically nerf Eldar. They had to do it to let other armies have a fighting chance. Second, many tournament Eldar players are guilty of relying too much on certain units as a crutch for their own deficiencies in the generalship department. Everyone who plays competitively knows exactly what kind of list Eldar are going to bring and has prepared counter-strategies to deal with Eldar. By the lists you've posted in the Army Lists section (especially this gem: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660633.page) OP, you're as guilty of this as anyone.

TL;DR Eldar aren't winning tournaments because people nerf them in house rules and many Eldar players cover up their ineptitude by spamming the same OP and broken units that are the subject of those nerfs.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
Unit is 1391pts and is;
Wolf lord w/TW SS TH with 2 wolves
3 iron priests in TWs with 4 cyberwolves each.
6 ravenwing knight command with 1 apothecary
Chaplain on bike
3 level 2 librarians on bikes

28 models.

This is pretty much the whole army, the rest was scouts

(Grabs Popcorn)

400 points of scouts is a lot more than what people would consider normal, and definitely worth mentioning. It wasn't necessarily this list that won NOVA. It was the usual suspects of 2+ re-rollable, Invisibility, and a really good player that knows how to use their list to counter their opponent.

NOVA does not use Highlander comp; it restricts how many sources from which a player can build their army. Personally, I disagree with some of NOVA's house rules (multi-trackers work in overwatch, blasts affect all levels, no nerf to invisibility) and feel like their ban on all superheavies goes too far and their changes to D-weapons don't go far enough. I prefer the ITC FAQ, and don't know enough about the Adepticon, LVO, and BAO rules to comment on them. What NOVA's missions boiled down to was traditional objectives for the primary and limited kill points (i.e. choose this unit and score a point if you kill it) for secondary. The ban on superheavies basically meant that a deathstar of some sort would take the win.

Do you know why Eldar have not been curbstomping every tournament since their new book was released? It's because of two simple reasons. First, many TO groups have adopted or changed their house rules in ways to specifically nerf Eldar. They had to do it to let other armies have a fighting chance. Second, many tournament Eldar players are guilty of relying too much on certain units as a crutch for their own deficiencies in the generalship department. Everyone who plays competitively knows exactly what kind of list Eldar are going to bring and has prepared counter-strategies to deal with Eldar. By the lists you've posted in the Army Lists section (especially this gem: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660633.page) OP, you're as guilty of this as anyone.

TL;DR Eldar aren't winning tournaments because people nerf them in house rules and many Eldar players cover up their ineptitude by spamming the same OP and broken units that are the subject of those nerfs.

did you see the player pack, the tables were covered in LOSBT and having a unit that's T5, 3+ cover save re-rolling, invisible, casts everything on a 2+, fearless the buffs go on and on and your telling me that this guy is a amazing player.? The list plays it self lol turbo boots up, multi-charge and then last turn spilt off into 9 units and grab objectives. Yeah real tactical genius lol

Dman137 wrote:
It's been clearly noted that people hate on eldar a lot but yet lists like the one that won the NOVA GT people seem to be fine with. Clearly theres a issue here.

That is because most Eldar players are not actually good at all but rather use OP units (Scatbikes, WraithBrigade) to win - sorry, curbstomp - the enemy in a couple of turns. What TO's do is limit the number of these OP units that can be brought and/or house rule a few slight nerfs to them so that they are brought back down to a balanced level.

This, of course, means that said Eldar players are forced to rely on skill and brainpower to win, rather than the same stupidly over powered crap being spammed again and again, resulting in the predictable outcome: They lose. Heavily.

This guy is exactly what a WAAC player is lol and the scouts just sit in all the cover and just go to ground all game


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
It's been clearly noted that people hate on eldar a lot but yet lists like the one that won the NOVA GT people seem to be fine with. Clearly theres a issue here.

That is because most Eldar players are not actually good at all but rather use OP units (Scatbikes, WraithBrigade) to win - sorry, curbstomp - the enemy in a couple of turns. What TO's do is limit the number of these OP units that can be brought and/or house rule a few slight nerfs to them so that they are brought back down to a balanced level.

This, of course, means that said Eldar players are forced to rely on skill and brainpower to win, rather than the same stupidly over powered crap being spammed again and again, resulting in the predictable outcome: They lose. Heavily.

so your saying that eldar players have no skill and that this list that won NOVA is a skilled list that shouldn't be nurfed.? You must be crazy

Dman137 wrote:
This guy is exactly what a WAAC player is lol and the scouts just sit in all the cover and just go to ground all game

Scouts in cover going to ground are doing almost nothing in the entire game and as a result are not pulling their weight (points).

WAAC player? Pot, the kettle just called....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dman137 wrote:
This guy is exactly what a WAAC player is lol and the scouts just sit in all the cover and just go to ground all game


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
It's been clearly noted that people hate on eldar a lot but yet lists like the one that won the NOVA GT people seem to be fine with. Clearly theres a issue here.

That is because most Eldar players are not actually good at all but rather use OP units (Scatbikes, WraithBrigade) to win - sorry, curbstomp - the enemy in a couple of turns. What TO's do is limit the number of these OP units that can be brought and/or house rule a few slight nerfs to them so that they are brought back down to a balanced level.

This, of course, means that said Eldar players are forced to rely on skill and brainpower to win, rather than the same stupidly over powered crap being spammed again and again, resulting in the predictable outcome: They lose. Heavily.

so your saying that eldar players have no skill and that this list that won NOVA is a skilled list that shouldn't be nurfed.? You must be crazy

No, you are crazy if you think that Eldar are perfectly balanced. The list that won was a cheesy build but nothing of the Eldar levels of stupidity.

You guys must be out to lunch if you think that list isn't broken

Of course its broken, but the dude had to combine THREE DIFFERENT CODEXES to do it.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Of course its broken, but the dude had to combine THREE DIFFERENT CODEXES to do it.

So.? It's 3 Marine dexs you make it sound like allie lists are hard to make

Dman137 wrote:
You guys must be out to lunch if you think that list isn't broken

Doesn't matter if it is or isn't, Eldar are still OP.

If people want to nerf eldar, this list is a example of other things that need to be nerffed.

Dman137 wrote:
If people want to nerf eldar, this list is a example of other things that need to be nerffed.

Yes. Get rid of allies. Job done.
The problem is that once you do that there is almost no counter to Eldar.

Dman137 wrote:
If people want to nerf eldar, this list is a example of other things that need to be nerffed.

It's just an example of how broken Allies are when exploited.

That doesn't change the fact that Eldar without allies are the most broken codex currently.

Dman137 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Of course its broken, but the dude had to combine THREE DIFFERENT CODEXES to do it.

So.? It's 3 Marine dexs you make it sound like allie lists are hard to make

Yup only 150 in books alone! Pick up your copies today

Yes. Get rid of allies. Job done.

Well there goes Inquisiton, IG, Blood Angels, and Dark Eldar as half-way playable armies.

Good job.

Oh no, someone made a Death Star and won, whereas all the poor eldar players using all the broken units they can didn't win :(

Seriously though eldar are pretty damn broken, and I've been playing guardian heavy Footdar for about 6 years. I honestly don't blame any tournament nerfing Eldar into the ground if they think it's necessary

Doesn't nova also rule in favor of ST10 wolf hammers as well?

Anyway this doesn't mean eldar are broken.

Dman137 wrote:
You guys must be out to lunch if you think that list isn't broken

You must be out to a 7 course banquet if you think that Eldar scatter bikes aren't broken.

Here's a thing, eldar scatter bikes put out approximately double the amount of S6 shooting at all ranges than an equal points value of Tau Crisis suits with dual plasma rifles when the Crisis suits are in rapid fire range.

Lets look at the guns first:
Scatter Lasers have longer range (36" vs 24")
Thanks to being Heavy 4 vs the Plasma Rifles Rapid Fire they put out double the shots of 2 plasma rifles at ranges greater than 12" and the same number of shots at ranges which are 12" or less.
To counter this the Scatter Laser has less armour penetration.

Now lets look at the platforms carrying the gun:

A Crisis Suit can move 6", a D6" run, 2D6" thrust move. It is BS3, T4 with a 3+ save and has 2 wounds.
Jetbike can move move 12", 36" turbo boost and have a 2D6" thrust move if they don't turbo boost. They are BS4, T4 with a 3+ save and have 1 wound.

So the Scatter Laser beats the Plasma Rifle on all things except armour penetration. The Jetbike is much more mobile than a Crisis Suit, more accurate than a Crisis Suit, equally as tough with an identical armour save but only has one wound vs the Crisis' 2.

Now lets compare points.

A Crisis Shas'ui with two plasma Rifles and no support system costs 52 points.
An Eldar Jetbike with scatter laser costs 27 points.

So the Eldar jetbike is almost half the cost of the Crisis suit, allowing you to effectively take double the amount of jetbike models as Crisis Suits for the same cost.

The effect of this? The extra wound which the Crisis Suit has is effectively void, an equal points value of Scatter Bikes will put out 4X as many S6 shots as Crisis suits at ranges over 12" and 2X as many at ranges 12" and below, the jetbike is more manoeuvrable and it is also a troop choice, allowing it to have objective secured (and before you say Crisis can be troop choices, only in a Farsight Enclaves list in which case they have to buy the bonding Knife ritual which adds extra cost and so skews it even more in favour of the jetbikes).

So why is a troop choice more powerful in every sense than an elite choice in what is meant to be the shootiest army in the game?

Could we maybe just limit the number of IC allowed to be in a unit at once? 3?

Then we can leave the eldar nerfs as is and still allow lots of allies?