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I can't, practically speaking, see a reason for the Mechanicus not to appropriate and reverse-engineer xeno-tech when it is more advanced than what the Imperium has. Yes, I know that's explicitly forbidden by the Machine Cult. Yes, I know it makes the setting more grimdark. But I'm not a fan of grimderp, which is to say grimdarkness for the sake of grimdarkness. This isn't something that falls under that "The Mechanicus does NOT have the technology..." post that I'm sure many of us have read, at least as far as I am aware; it's not going to cause another Age of Strife, and no daemons are going to possess the tech if it's sanctified like everything else. The only real threat I see is retaliation from whatever xenos species you've chosen to picpocket, which is a nonissue if you pick your battles.

Case in point: the Tau. They've got an empire barely the size of Ultramar, with tech that's in several ways superior to what the Imperium can currently mass-produce. It would be a trivial matter to roll over them, send in the Inquisition to work with the Tau scientists to speed up the reverse-engineering before executing them, and start disseminating the tech into the greater Imperium, advertising it as a new STC.

If I'm wrong about any of this, feel free to explain why I am a blathering idiot.

It seems we have an other corrupted explorator over here. Can someone purge this heretic, and we are at it could we also purge those filthy space monkey lovers. We don't need no inferior Xenos tech, all we need is to revive the Akashic Reader.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is an interesting discussion

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/84657-explorators-and-the-cold-trade/

So wait, if the Tau is vastly superior to the Imperium, how come "It would be a trivial matter to roll over them"?

If it was superior, why can what the Imperium has roll over it?

/devilsadvocate

The problem isn't that they can't reverse engineer the tech but that there is the huge likelihood that you would be labeled a heretic and die a horrible death. The Imperium is basically under the control of a multitude of people operating under a strict theocracy of sorts. No one person is truly in charge and any person proposing radical changes in policy would open themselves to being labeled as heretical risking their life and standing. A single inquisitor or tech priest might be able to study some xenos tech in secret but its a completely different to incorporate this tech outside your own personal retinue. The Imperium's hands are tied by their own ideology and general mistrust of all things different and unknown.

 asorel wrote:
I can't, practically speaking, see a reason for the Mechanicus not to appropriate and reverse-engineer xeno-tech when it is more advanced than what the Imperium has. Yes, I know that's explicitly forbidden by the Machine Cult. Yes, I know it makes the setting more grimdark. But I'm not a fan of grimderp, which is to say grimdarkness for the sake of grimdarkness. This isn't something that falls under that "The Mechanicus does NOT have the technology..." post that I'm sure many of us have read, at least as far as I am aware; it's not going to cause another Age of Strife, and no daemons are going to possess the tech if it's sanctified like everything else. The only real threat I see is retaliation from whatever xenos species you've chosen to picpocket, which is a nonissue if you pick your battles.

Case in point: the Tau. They've got an empire barely the size of Ultramar, with tech that's in several ways superior to what the Imperium can currently mass-produce. It would be a trivial matter to roll over them, send in the Inquisition to work with the Tau scientists to speed up the reverse-engineering before executing them, and start disseminating the tech into the greater Imperium, advertising it as a new STC.

If I'm wrong about any of this, feel free to explain why I am a blathering idiot.

The Tau may look and sound advanced, but they really aren't.
They do not have wide spread use of portable direct energy weapons, for example; they use rail technology, which is a different beast entirely.
The "plasma" is really just a super-heated projectile, much easier to accomplish tech wise than a lethal direct energy weapon.
The Imperium can even mass produce such weapons.

Most of this view of the Tau being technologically advanced is due to not understanding the difference in logistics or ideologies; the Imperium has a much larger army spread out over a wider distance than the Tau, and as such favors durable and easy to produce equipment. The Tau has a much smaller army over a distance, and as such can afford to give their soldiers the best equipment possible.

The Imperium has a cultural fear of AI, due to the Man of Iron incident. The Tau has not yet experienced such a disaster.
There's also the fact that the Ad Mech has a great hatred of any non-human tech, and as such would be reluctant to adapt it for human use. They are not above researching it, however, to find any exploitable weaknesses.

 curran12 wrote:
So wait, if the Tau is vastly superior to the Imperium, how come "It would be a trivial matter to roll over them"?

If it was superior, why can what the Imperium has roll over it?

/devilsadvocate

Because it's superior, but not vastly superior. And the Imperium has numbers, not to mention advances in other areas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 asorel wrote:
I can't, practically speaking, see a reason for the Mechanicus not to appropriate and reverse-engineer xeno-tech when it is more advanced than what the Imperium has. Yes, I know that's explicitly forbidden by the Machine Cult. Yes, I know it makes the setting more grimdark. But I'm not a fan of grimderp, which is to say grimdarkness for the sake of grimdarkness. This isn't something that falls under that "The Mechanicus does NOT have the technology..." post that I'm sure many of us have read, at least as far as I am aware; it's not going to cause another Age of Strife, and no daemons are going to possess the tech if it's sanctified like everything else. The only real threat I see is retaliation from whatever xenos species you've chosen to picpocket, which is a nonissue if you pick your battles.

Case in point: the Tau. They've got an empire barely the size of Ultramar, with tech that's in several ways superior to what the Imperium can currently mass-produce. It would be a trivial matter to roll over them, send in the Inquisition to work with the Tau scientists to speed up the reverse-engineering before executing them, and start disseminating the tech into the greater Imperium, advertising it as a new STC.

If I'm wrong about any of this, feel free to explain why I am a blathering idiot.

The Tau may look and sound advanced, but they really aren't.
They do not have wide spread use of portable direct energy weapons, for example; they use rail technology, which is a different beast entirely.
The "plasma" is really just a super-heated projectile, much easier to accomplish tech wise than a lethal direct energy weapon.
The Imperium can even mass produce such weapons.

Most of this view of the Tau being technologically advanced is due to not understanding the difference in logistics or ideologies; the Imperium has a much larger army spread out over a wider distance than the Tau, and as such favors durable and easy to produce equipment. The Tau has a much smaller army over a distance, and as such can afford to give their soldiers the best equipment possible.

The Imperium has a cultural fear of AI, due to the Man of Iron incident. The Tau has not yet experienced such a disaster.
There's also the fact that the Ad Mech has a great hatred of any non-human tech, and as such would be reluctant to adapt it for human use. They are not above researching it, however, to find any exploitable weaknesses.

Do the tau actually use AI? I thought their drones were of the remote-controlled variety.

Edit: Lexicanum claims that Tau pulse rifles are in fact a form of plasma weaponry, and the plasma rifle is undeniably plasma-based.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vankraken wrote:
The problem isn't that they can't reverse engineer the tech but that there is the huge likelihood that you would be labeled a heretic and die a horrible death. The Imperium is basically under the control of a multitude of people operating under a strict theocracy of sorts. No one person is truly in charge and any person proposing radical changes in policy would open themselves to being labeled as heretical risking their life and standing. A single inquisitor or tech priest might be able to study some xenos tech in secret but its a completely different to incorporate this tech outside your own personal retinue. The Imperium's hands are tied by their own ideology and general mistrust of all things different and unknown.

I'd say the number of radical Inquisitors and AdMech priests are sufficient to pull this off. I'd argue that something similar has happened at least once before, though in this case it was something that was likely invented instead of scavenged. Space Marine Centurion armor is said to have come from an STC. This is obviously false, as Space Marines came a good five thousand years after STCs were active.

 asorel wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
So wait, if the Tau is vastly superior to the Imperium, how come "It would be a trivial matter to roll over them"?

If it was superior, why can what the Imperium has roll over it?

/devilsadvocate

Because it's superior, but not vastly superior. And the Imperium has numbers, not to mention advances in other areas.

What's superior about it exactly? Examples, sources, direct comparisons.

 curran12 wrote:

 asorel wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
So wait, if the Tau is vastly superior to the Imperium, how come "It would be a trivial matter to roll over them"?

If it was superior, why can what the Imperium has roll over it?

/devilsadvocate

Because it's superior, but not vastly superior. And the Imperium has numbers, not to mention advances in other areas.

What's superior about it exactly? Examples, sources, direct comparisons.

The primary direct advantage is more one of reliability and distribution. Tau pulse rifles, for instance, hit harder than a standard boltgun and have better range. Unlike bolt weapons, however, these weapons are mass-produced and are standard issue for basic infantry, not the elite of the elite.

After that it's accuracy and target acquisition. Markerlights, precision guided missiles, and so on.

Then there are the multiple variations of stealthsuits fielded by them.

Finally, it's that Tau have a more-than-practical understanding of their tech, given that they haven't scavenged it from old STCs. This knowledge could be captured as well, though it wouldn't have as significant immediate effect as quick and dirty reverse engineering.

The Tau empire is a fraction of the size of the Imperium. Let me know how their distribution works on a scale of the galaxy, and not their collection of 3-5 sectors. Comparing it to something that spans the whole length of the galaxy is a poor comparison, because it removes all discussion of context.

The pulse rifle itself hits harder, yes. But has less armor penetration and also relies on constant resupply. Which is fine when you are on a micro scale that the Tau empire is in. But when you are spread across the galaxy, a weapon that you can reload by tossing its cells into a campfire (the lasgun, which is the far more common Imperium weapon) trumps it in durability, ruggedness and independence.

 curran12 wrote:
The Tau empire is a fraction of the size of the Imperium. Let me know how their distribution works on a scale of the galaxy, and not their collection of 3-5 sectors. Comparing it to something that spans the whole length of the galaxy is a poor comparison, because it removes all discussion of context.

The pulse rifle itself hits harder, yes. But has less armor penetration and also relies on constant resupply. Which is fine when you are on a micro scale that the Tau empire is in. But when you are spread across the galaxy, a weapon that you can reload by tossing its cells into a campfire (the lasgun, which is the far more common Imperium weapon) trumps it in durability, ruggedness and independence.

Replacing the lasgun would be a waste, as the entire point of such a weapon is its expendability. However, pulse weaponry (S5 AP5 30") is an excellent replacement for bolt weapons (S4 AP5 24"), more reliable, and easier to produce to boot. As for distribution, note that the Tau also have fewer manufacturing centers, and I doubt what they have is comparable to the single-mindedness and population density of a Forge World.

First all, drop game stats. We're talking fluff, not rules. The rules are abstractions.

Second, you prove my point. The Tau work on a -micro- scale. They can distribute and produce effectively in a scale of the Tau Empire. Which is the tiniest of tiny fragments when comparing it to the Imperium. Does it work better there? Absolutely. But we're talking galaxy-scale here.

Also, how are pulse rifles more reliable and easier to produce? Citation needed.

 curran12 wrote:
First all, drop game stats. We're talking fluff, not rules. The rules are abstractions.

Second, you prove my point. The Tau work on a -micro- scale. They can distribute and produce effectively in a scale of the Tau Empire. Which is the tiniest of tiny fragments when comparing it to the Imperium. Does it work better there? Absolutely. But we're talking galaxy-scale here.

Also, how are pulse rifles more reliable and easier to produce? Citation needed.

It's not so much a quality of the pulse rifle as it is a drawback of bolters. I was under the impression that bolt weapons are notoriously cantankerous, and requite constant cleaning and maintenance to function properly.

Not really, I don't remember anything that says bolt weapons are cantankerous. Got a source?

 curran12 wrote:
Not really, I don't remember anything that says bolt weapons are cantankerous. Got a source?

Only something from warhammer40k.wikia, which I understand is less reputable than Lexicanum:

The Bolter is complex to produce and requires dedicated maintenance, which prevents it from being issued more widely throughout the Imperial Guard.

Also, the Hammer of the Emperor supplement to Only War refers to the mk 38 bolt pistol as "difficult to maintain even when compared to bolters," which implies that the regular godwyn pattern needs lots of attention to keep it functional.

Without sources, I would think it's not an unreasonable assumption to make, given how many steps there are between pulling the trigger and the bolt firing.

Yes, but that also ignores the complete lack of fluff and development in terms of pulse rifles. There's a lot of material about bolters given there are multiple games and rpgs that use bolters and give them fluff. How many do the same for the Tau? Lack of evidence is not proof.

Also, as mentioned before, you are comparing the mass-issue infantry rifle of the Tau with the standard-issue for the super elite Space Marines. The fair comparison is with the lasgun, as that is the main line Imperium gun.

No they shouldn't be reverse engineering xeno tech.

Not when our plasma and melta technologies work better already for damage output.

Just devote more effort into making the "good" weapons that we already have access too.

 curran12 wrote:
Yes, but that also ignores the complete lack of fluff and development in terms of pulse rifles. There's a lot of material about bolters given there are multiple games and rpgs that use bolters and give them fluff. How many do the same for the Tau? Lack of evidence is not proof.

Also, as mentioned before, you are comparing the mass-issue infantry rifle of the Tau with the standard-issue for the super elite Space Marines. The fair comparison is with the lasgun, as that is the main line Imperium gun.

Then let's drop ease of manufacture from the discussion. As I also mentioned, Tau facilities aren't comparable to Forge Worlds, who may well be able to churn out pulse weapons as often as, say, meltaguns given the specifications. But we don't have enough data on either pulse weapons or Tau facilities to make a definitive statement.

I'd say the Tempestus are a better direct comparison to the Fire Warriors. Both are trained/designated from birth, and neither relies on human wave tactics the way certain regiments of the Guard do. Lasguns may be the default in the same way the pulse rifle is the default, but Guardsmen blobs aren't used on the battlefield in the same way Tau cadres are. Also, I fail to see how comparing Imperium units to Tau units is relevant to the practicality of introducing such tech to the Imperium. If the pulse rifle serves the special forces better than it serves the basic infantry, there's no reason to give it to the latter just because that's what the original owners did.

Isn't one of the mechanicum's tenets:
The alien mechanism is a perversion of the true path, but by studying it the true path can be revealed?

It words to that effect at least.

 Krellnus wrote:
Isn't one of the mechanicum's tenets:
The alien mechanism is a perversion of the true path, but by studying it the true path can be revealed?

It words to that effect at least.

To quote the OP: "Yes, I know that's explicitly forbidden by the Machine Cult."

It's the ninth Universal Law of the AdMech, The alien mechanism is a perversion of the True Path.

One could, however, interpret this to mean that the alien mechanism should be brought to the True Path by adapting it and improving upon it. At least, that's what the radicals tell themselves. However, this thread is meant to be an exploration of the practical limitations of such acts, not theological ones.

If I was going to pick one grab of tech to steal, it would have to be the stealth fields. It might actually make the concept of SM stealth not so laughable.

Which is their only restriction, the imperium is an organization whose only limit on resources is the time it takes to move them from point a to b. The only real restriction they have on reverse engineering is a tenuous theological one.

 Krellnus wrote:
Which is their only restriction, the imperium is an organization whose only limit on resources is the time it takes to move them from point a to b. The only real restriction they have on reverse engineering is a tenuous theological one.

Taking things from Eldar (to a small extent), Necrons, and anything else that has the potential to give the Imperium a large amount of pain for stealing their secrets. Not enough to pose a serious threat to humanity on its own, but enough personal, immediate that most people wouldn't bother trying.

The reason it does not happen on a large scale is twofold, both related to the AdMechs religion (remember they are more then engineers they are priests). First they see everything made by humans as holy and blessed by the Machine God and second everything Xenos is unholy and blasphemous to the Machine God. Yes there are outliners who will go against this but they are a very small minority. To the majority there is no need to reverse engineer xeno tech because everything of value has already been created by man they just need to find it and to suggest otherwise is heresy. I know you said you hate grimderp, and do too, but sometimes that's the point. The people of this time don't think like us and will do stupid thing for little reason and that's the tragedy of the setting.

 asorel wrote:
Yes, I know it makes the setting more grimdark.

But that's not what this is. It's an inherent part of what defines the Imperium. Asking why they don't reverse-engineer Tau technology is like asking why Muslims don't eat bacon. The Imperium is not a rational and pragmatic organization, they're an insane theocracy that just happened to be lucky enough to inherit the power of a better society.

Pssst you are not alone

Rogue trader core rule book wrote:Ghost Field. .. ... To posses it is to invite damnation, but even crudely and imperfectly installed aboard a ship...

Rogue trader core rule book wrote: Runecaster. Another example of Eldar technology, Runecasters are often housed in large, vaulted chambers... ... Xeno-tech researchers have re-appropriated the devices from their previous, unknown purposes. Through some incomprehensible means the device is almost prescient - Aiding Navigators in avoiding the worst storms of the Immaterium

codex inquisition wrote:SCYTHIAN VENOM TALON... ... Quite how the Inquisition have come to acquire
such weapons is perhaps best left to the imagination.

codex inquisition wrote:The needle pistol is a small and elegant weapon of clouded origins

They tried to capture the soulspear to reverse engineer it.

Then there are the null rods and the dread knights

Now tell me where the rest of you xenophiles are to host a nice convention.

Tau weapons ? Aw, that's cute.

Let's reverse-engineer... NECRON WEAPONS
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*Ahem* Sorry.

Also, the Hammer of the Emperor supplement to Only War refers to the mk 38 bolt pistol as "difficult to maintain even when compared to bolters," which implies that the regular godwyn pattern needs lots of attention to keep it functional.

Without sources, I would think it's not an unreasonable assumption to make, given how many steps there are between pulling the trigger and the bolt firing.

Again, if we're pulling in FFG background, bear in mind that astartes-calibre bolt weapons hit harder than pulse weapons - there's a distinct gap in capability between Astartes/Legion bolt weaponry and everyone else's.

Rolling over the Tau Empire isn't a 'trivial matter' - the Imperium tried, but the Damocles Gulf crusade got bogged down. It probably would have won, if they'd kept feeding regiments and chapters into it, but Tyranids.

Plus, reverse-engineering hardware - at least to an extent that you can produce it on an industrial scale - takes years, because even if you know how it works you've got to figure out how to make machines to make the machines to make the bits.

The imperium does snatch, grab and develop unique bits of technology on a regular basis - special ammunition for the deathwatch, stealth tech based on tau battlesuit hardware, necron phase tech for the assassinorium, etc, etc, but it's all hand-made by magos.

The whole master/apprentice/personal forge-fief structure of the upper mechanicus is set up very well to produce one-off items at ridiculous technology levels, which is great if you want to produce master-crafted weapons for half a dozen chapter masters. It's not so great if you want to arm the entire chapter with something other than a Godwyn Mk6.

While you could reverse-engineer that Pulse Rifle and start production pretty soon (as the IoM sees time) you do run into other practical problems. Such as you already having the facilities to produce lasguns and bolters, customers for those and a long chain of providers that bring in the materials for those weapons, all bound by feudal contracts millenia old. It would upset the balance. A lot of new contracts would have to be negotiated, production lines rebuilt, material-producing colonies refocused and processing plants reset.

And ofc, a huge number of TechPriests etc would have to be recalled to Mars so you could teach them how to service the new weapons. Take them all at once and everything in every Imperial Army will be left without service!

Spetulhu wrote:
While you could reverse-engineer that Pulse Rifle and start production pretty soon (as the IoM sees time) you do run into other practical problems. Such as you already having the facilities to produce lasguns and bolters, customers for those and a long chain of providers that bring in the materials for those weapons, all bound by feudal contracts millenia old. It would upset the balance. A lot of new contracts would have to be negotiated, production lines rebuilt, material-producing colonies refocused and processing plants reset.

And ofc, a huge number of TechPriests etc would have to be recalled to Mars so you could teach them how to service the new weapons. Take them all at once and everything in every Imperial Army will be left without service!

Thus my previous idea of a Loyalist chapter possessing hidden research facilities studying xeno weaponry (Coming from a schism within the Mechanicus itself) and fielding such weapons when Inquisitors are looking the other way.

asorel wrote:
Do the tau actually use AI? I thought their drones were of the remote-controlled variety.

No, Tau Drones are networked dumb AI that, when enough units join the network, they become true AI. The 'Drone Controller' support system effectively lets a Tau brain interface with the Drone network, which has the same effect as adding lots and lots of drones to it, while at the same time giving the Tau direct control over the drones, since their 'brain' is effectively also part of his or her 'brain'.

Edit: Lexicanum claims that Tau pulse rifles are in fact a form of plasma weaponry, and the plasma rifle is undeniably plasma-based.

Yes, sort of - Tau Plasma Pulse weaponry works by subjecting a solid metal projectile to stresses that cause it to go to energy state four as it leaves the barrel. However, this doesn't burn nearly as hot as 'true' plasma weaponry, which uses mixed gasses then ignites them to create star-like projectiles.

While technically the Pulse weaponry is a better use of the word plasma, it's on an entirely different level of heat and damage than the standard 'plasma' weaponry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vankraken wrote:
The problem isn't that they can't reverse engineer the tech but that there is the huge likelihood that you would be labeled a heretic and die a horrible death. The Imperium is basically under the control of a multitude of people operating under a strict theocracy of sorts. No one person is truly in charge and any person proposing radical changes in policy would open themselves to being labeled as heretical risking their life and standing. A single inquisitor or tech priest might be able to study some xenos tech in secret but its a completely different to incorporate this tech outside your own personal retinue. The Imperium's hands are tied by their own ideology and general mistrust of all things different and unknown.

I'd say the number of radical Inquisitors and AdMech priests are sufficient to pull this off. I'd argue that something similar has happened at least once before, though in this case it was something that was likely invented instead of scavenged. Space Marine Centurion armor is said to have come from an STC. This is obviously false, as Space Marines came a good five thousand years after STCs were active.