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Oh, yes, definitely. 40k tanks, or at least imperial ones, while having the edge of firepower and armour, are pretty badly designed. Most can get away with it because AI, but you have a lot less of that in the imperium, and even then it;s generally created with actual human brains.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just thinking about tau stuff in relation to that, their MBT, the hammer head is pretty tall, but at the same time can have stuff like the d-pod, which can make them very hard to get a good solid shot on. They have some pretty good optical/scanner tech, and are often simply out-maneuver and out-range opponents. With regards to crew, they have a 3 man crew, a driver, gunner, and commander, but thanks to a "glass cockpit" setup, any member can do the job of the others, meaning that , theoretically, a skilled individual can operate the tank by themselves, although with decreased effectiveness. They are quite well armoured, but not as much as imperial ones due to weight restrictions on their grav-tech. On the flip-side, what with that and sensor spines, they can operate in almost any terrain with no decrease in effectiveness. Their main gun is rightly feared (in the fluff, sadly strong single shots are no where as good as med, high ROF now), fast, powerful, and accurate. And their submunitions can deal with infantry with ease. They also have their secondary weapons, gun drones, whihc can also be used for scouting, or to help other troops, burst cannons, which cut through infantry like nothing (think two tank mounted vulcans), and the SMS, which can effectively deal with enemies in cover, or take out drenched enmities in buildings. It does have a major weakness, however. it's engines. Destroy those and it can only float in place, immobile, reduced to a static turret. It can deal with minor damage with repair drones, but they would have limited effectiveness with more major damage.

 Peregrine wrote:

Oh FFS, can you stop nitpicking the exact definition of "standard issue"? Most power armor does not have a jetpack or zero-g maneuvering thrusters. Tactical squads don't have it. Devastator squads don't have it. Assault marines deploying from drop pods don't have it. Terminators don't have it. Etc. The only units that have any kind of flight ability are assault and vanguard squads that have been issued jump packs. And even those units have much less maneuverability than crisis suits (or Eldar warp spiders, etc).

Uh, the exhaust nozzles on the standard space marine backpack are fully equipped to allow for vector control in zero-gravity environments. That's their main purpose;

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Oh FFS, can you stop nitpicking the exact definition of "standard issue"? Most power armor does not have a jetpack or zero-g maneuvering thrusters. Tactical squads don't have it. Devastator squads don't have it. Assault marines deploying from drop pods don't have it. Terminators don't have it. Etc. The only units that have any kind of flight ability are assault and vanguard squads that have been issued jump packs. And even those units have much less maneuverability than crisis suits (or Eldar warp spiders, etc).

Uh, the exhaust nozzles on the standard space marine backpack are fully equipped to allow for vector control in zero-gravity environments. That's their main purpose;

Don't mind me, just fixing a post.
But yeah, I'm pretty sure it was clearly stated somewhere that Adeptus Astartes armor was designed primarily for space combat.
Hence the term, "Space Marine"

Fixed my post :p

But yes. Space Marines don't have "flight capability" because they need extra boosters to maneuver in atmosphere - but in zero gravity, they're fully capable of operating, between their void-sealed suits (one of the systems specifically noted as not being included in Sororitas power armour - which also doesn't have the jet vents), maneuvering thrusters and built-in magnetic boots, a Space Marine is perfectly happy fighting on the hull of a space ship or even jumping from one ship to another.

From what i gather is not that the Imperium can't innovate and more that they won't since it goes against their dogma and the small things they "invent" is bending the rules and not be branded as a heretic. I think it's a lot like the Dwarves in WHFB.

 lyrken wrote:
From what i gather is not that the Imperium can't innovate and more that they won't since it goes against their dogma and the small things they "invent" is bending the rules and not be branded as a heretic. I think it's a lot like the Dwarves in WHFB.

There are clearly some things they invent that are then passed off as STCs. As mentioned before, Space Marine Centurion armor is a prime example. It can't possibly have come from an STC, as Astartes were created after the Age of Strife.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I think a good example would be what they have to withstand. Some of the really heavy vehicles have been known to tank ( ) metla shots, and those are hot enough to vaporize titanium and steel. So at the very least they have higher heat resistance. And think of all the other things they are up against. Infantry firing .75 cal self-propelled, armour piercing grenades. Lasers powerful enough to blast through steel like it's nothing. All sorts of assorted shells and rockets.

Other things to consider is crew layout and crew jobs. With so many weapons to crew and man that leaves a lot that can go wrong. Another thing to consider is how awful being an Imperial Tank commander must be in the 40k.

So many guns to co ordinate, very few vision slits from memory, very big targets (they are gonna be shaken up ALOT) and whats worse is how huge these guns are. The kick back and the noise would be huge in these tanks.

"Power" is a very simple way of looking at it, but practicality is also a major factor. At the end of the day a balance of practicality, protection and offensive ability is needed in a good tank. Imperial Tanks have offensive power, mediocre protection (armoured apparently but huge targets and not very well designed to take a hit) and completely lack practicality. So really these tanks would not likely be used in a "real" situation as all it takes is one RPG and these guys are in a lot of trouble.

In "real" war usually the tank that wins is the tank that saw the other tank first. As a result tanks have got lower and lower while optics on tanks get better and better. Communication also improves so that tanks can keep updated with other teams on locations and so on. In 40k tanks have very few vision spots (that I can see), terrible silhouette (gonna be seen very quickly) and communication in a tank that has up to 5 guns or more means whatever the tank does is gonna be very tough to communicate.

At the end of the day, it's easy to compare simply guns and armour, but there is so much more to a tank (in my brief knowledge) that makes 40k Imperial tank designs a huge failure in comparison to the majority of real life tanks.

If you want to stop a Leman Russ/Chimera all you need to do is to create muddy fields. Those tanks have such poor clearance that all it takes is a few inches of mud before they are stopped dead. The Imperial Guard would've had a horrible time invading the Soviet Union!

 asorel wrote:
I can't, practically speaking, see a reason for the Mechanicus not to appropriate and reverse-engineer xeno-tech when it is more advanced than what the Imperium has. Yes, I know that's explicitly forbidden by the Machine Cult. Yes, I know it makes the setting more grimdark. But I'm not a fan of grimderp, which is to say grimdarkness for the sake of grimdarkness. This isn't something that falls under that "The Mechanicus does NOT have the technology..." post that I'm sure many of us have read, at least as far as I am aware; it's not going to cause another Age of Strife, and no daemons are going to possess the tech if it's sanctified like everything else. The only real threat I see is retaliation from whatever xenos species you've chosen to picpocket, which is a nonissue if you pick your battles.

Case in point: the Tau. They've got an empire barely the size of Ultramar, with tech that's in several ways superior to what the Imperium can currently mass-produce. It would be a trivial matter to roll over them, send in the Inquisition to work with the Tau scientists to speed up the reverse-engineering before executing them, and start disseminating the tech into the greater Imperium, advertising it as a new STC.

If I'm wrong about any of this, feel free to explain why I am a blathering idiot.

First off you are completely wrong about the Tau having any superior tech. Everything the Tau have has far superior equivalents in the Imperium's technology. What the issue is the Imperium/Ad Mech doesn't disseminate the tech they have as much as they could. This is for several reasons.

1) Much of the high end technology would require very rare resources. And thus be expensive to produce and maintain. This means they couldn't arm near as many soldiers. Its better to have a million soldiers with lasguns and flak vests than 1000 soldiers with plasma guns and light power armor. Its better to have a million LRBTs than to have 100 Hammerheads. The Imperium could put railguns on their tanks if they wanted, but that would be very expensive and have diminishing returns.

2) Deep in the past, Mankind was almost wiped out by sentient AI. This has left a deep impact on the human psyche. A fear based on a very dangerous and ever present reality. The danger of a robot uprising. This has led to a healthy fear of technology. Its better to be slightly less powerful, but still alive, then to be so advanced you get pushed to extinction by your toaster.

Readdressing the issue raised by the OP:

I think to truly understand this question, you need to take a look at how the Mechanicus actually functions. It is not a component of the Imperium in the sense that the Astra Militarum or Adeptus Ministorum are. It is an entirely separate organisation dedicated to the reverence of the Machine God/Omnissiah/Space Jesus (ie Big E) that simply works with the Imperium out of a mutually beneficial partnership. The Mechanicus does not have the manpower to keep the combined forces of heretics, xenos, and chaos at bay. The Imperium does not have the technology to even get their men where they're needed and are thus powerless against external threats. Only together do the two become something that is greater than the sum of their parts, which still isn't enough judging by how humanity's efforts are going so far.

The Mechanicus itself runs on a set of core principles that every tech-adept is taught upon induction and is drilled with day and night since the beginning of their training upon pain of being lobotomised and recycled as a servitor, which is admittedly a fate worse than death. These are the Mysteries and the Warnings:

The Mysteries
01. Life is directed motion.
02. The spirit is the spark of life.
03. Sentience is the ability to learn the value of knowledge.
04. Intellect is the understanding of knowledge.
05. Sentience is the basest form of Intellect.
06. Understanding is the True Path to Comprehension.
07. Comprehension is the key to all things.
08. The Omnissiah knows all, comprehends all.

The Warnings
09. The alien mechanism is a perversion of the true path.
10. The soul is the conscience of sentience.
11. A soul can be bestowed only by the Omnissiah.
12. The Soulless sentience is the enemy of all.
13. The knowledge of the ancients stands beyond question.
14. The machine spirit guards the knowledge of the ancients.
15. Flesh is fallible, but ritual honors the machine spirit.
16. To break with ritual is to break with faith.

These core principles are the result of the Mechanicus getting beaten into the ground not once, but twice over the course of fifteen thousand years. The first such time was the Iron Men, which inspired Rule Twelve, as AI is considered sentience, but without a conscience that drives it. Admittedly this all could have been avoided by something as simple as Asimov's Laws which seem to be conveniently absent in any Sci-Fi setting that involves rogue AI or simply teaching it the value of morality and life but that's not the point. The point here is that it is forbidden because the war with the Iron Men was absolutely devastating for Mankind and they are loathe to allow such a calamity to befall them once again. The second time was the Horus Heresy, and that's what hammered the final nail into the coffin and made them fully convert to a religious take on the Machine when they had their own greatest creations turned against them. Mars became a battleground of Imperators and Warlords utilising terrible weaponry against each other and permanently scoring the surface of the planet with plasma, lasers, and fire.

This is why they have a problem with a lot of Tau tech, incidentally. A lot of it involves AI, and the Mechanicus are not willing to risk their existence on something that has tried to exterminate them once before. Say what you will about reason and logic, but a genocidal campaign conducted against your species is a damn good reason not to trust the thing that initiated said campaign in the first place. Even if they are dumb AI, Tau drones are set up so that more of them successfully connected to the same network become smarter, much like Geth. A single unit is rather simplistic in function and can perform basic tasks. A whole platoon of them are capable of advanced combat tactics that can outsmart even the most devious of foes simply by calculating the best approach to a given situation. You can find this here. Imagine if that suddenly turned on you? How screwed would you be? That is the Iron Men incident in a nutshell, and the Mechanicus have firmly decided that attempting it again is a frakking stupid idea that will only lead to their damnation, hence most of the warnings about Machine Spirits. I will address these later. However, the Tau Drone Control Systems are much more in line with Imperial Acceptable Use standards, as they're slaved to the brain of a human operator which can act as their conscience, their direction (Rules One and Two), hence why servitors are a thing.

As for why the don't reverse engineer technology, take a look at Rule Nine. When they refer to the Alien Mechanism, Alien is a catch-all term for anything not made by humans. Why? Because it will have been the first Magos to experiment with Xenos tech, the first to mess around with the horrors of the Warp, the first to study the evil that is Chaos itself that fell to the influence of the Ruinous Powers, the Big Four, those frakking gakheads who are truly only there to screw everyone over, and resulted in them (the Loyalist Mechanicus) being murdered by the millions with the same technology they built to defend themselves with. Innocent experiments with a Tau Pulse Rifle could lead to something much more sinister, like integrating warp energies into existing technology and making it temperamental, or even worse, daemonic. The Mechanicus decided that to avoid this entirely they would simply say 'no xenos or chaotic tech at all, ever' and then translate that into a format that humans can easily understand: fear and revulsion. Religion itself is built upon fear. The fear of what will happen should you not obey. This is what the Mechanicus and the Imperium run on and it is there to save them from damnation. It was the best solution to a problem that could only be described as heart-stoppingly terrifying should it ever actually come about. The enslavement of all humanity is nothing to sniff at.

This is why reverse engineering tech is bad. This is why Machine Spirits exist. They are there to dissuade the inquisitive from biting off more than they can chew, and in this grim, dark future, the agonising irony of it all is that it may be the only way to save them from total destruction against the very forces that they are forbidden from interacting with.

DevoutGuardsman wrote:Readdressing the issue raised by the OP:

I think to truly understand this question, you need to take a look at how the Mechanicus actually functions. It is not a component of the Imperium in the sense that the Astra Militarum or Adeptus Ministorum are. It is an entirely separate organisation dedicated to the reverence of the Machine God/Omnissiah/Space Jesus (ie Big E) that simply works with the Imperium out of a mutually beneficial partnership. The Mechanicus does not have the manpower to keep the combined forces of heretics, xenos, and chaos at bay. The Imperium does not have the technology to even get their men where they're needed and are thus powerless against external threats. Only together do the two become something that is greater than the sum of their parts, which still isn't enough judging by how humanity's efforts are going so far.

The Mechanicus itself runs on a set of core principles that every tech-adept is taught upon induction and is drilled with day and night since the beginning of their training upon pain of being lobotomised and recycled as a servitor, which is admittedly a fate worse than death. These are the Mysteries and the Warnings:

The Mysteries
01. Life is directed motion.
02. The spirit is the spark of life.
03. Sentience is the ability to learn the value of knowledge.
04. Intellect is the understanding of knowledge.
05. Sentience is the basest form of Intellect.
06. Understanding is the True Path to Comprehension.
07. Comprehension is the key to all things.
08. The Omnissiah knows all, comprehends all.

The Warnings
09. The alien mechanism is a perversion of the true path.
10. The soul is the conscience of sentience.
11. A soul can be bestowed only by the Omnissiah.
12. The Soulless sentience is the enemy of all.
13. The knowledge of the ancients stands beyond question.
14. The machine spirit guards the knowledge of the ancients.
15. Flesh is fallible, but ritual honors the machine spirit.
16. To break with ritual is to break with faith.

These core principles are the result of the Mechanicus getting beaten into the ground not once, but twice over the course of fifteen thousand years. The first such time was the Iron Men, which inspired Rule Twelve, as AI is considered sentience, but without a conscience that drives it. Admittedly this all could have been avoided by something as simple as Asimov's Laws which seem to be conveniently absent in any Sci-Fi setting that involves rogue AI or simply teaching it the value of morality and life but that's not the point. The point here is that it is forbidden because the war with the Iron Men was absolutely devastating for Mankind and they are loathe to allow such a calamity to befall them once again. The second time was the Horus Heresy, and that's what hammered the final nail into the coffin and made them fully convert to a religious take on the Machine when they had their own greatest creations turned against them. Mars became a battleground of Imperators and Warlords utilising terrible weaponry against each other and permanently scoring the surface of the planet with plasma, lasers, and fire.

This is why they have a problem with a lot of Tau tech, incidentally. A lot of it involves AI, and the Mechanicus are not willing to risk their existence on something that has tried to exterminate them once before. Say what you will about reason and logic, but a genocidal campaign conducted against your species is a damn good reason not to trust the thing that initiated said campaign in the first place. Even if they are dumb AI, Tau drones are set up so that more of them successfully connected to the same network become smarter, much like Geth. A single unit is rather simplistic in function and can perform basic tasks. A whole platoon of them are capable of advanced combat tactics that can outsmart even the most devious of foes simply by calculating the best approach to a given situation. You can find this here. Imagine if that suddenly turned on you? How screwed would you be? That is the Iron Men incident in a nutshell, and the Mechanicus have firmly decided that attempting it again is a frakking stupid idea that will only lead to their damnation, hence most of the warnings about Machine Spirits. I will address these later. However, the Tau Drone Control Systems are much more in line with Imperial Acceptable Use standards, as they're slaved to the brain of a human operator which can act as their conscience, their direction (Rules One and Two), hence why servitors are a thing.

As for why the don't reverse engineer technology, take a look at Rule Nine. When they refer to the Alien Mechanism, Alien is a catch-all term for anything not made by humans. Why? Because it will have been the first Magos to experiment with Xenos tech, the first to mess around with the horrors of the Warp, the first to study the evil that is Chaos itself that fell to the influence of the Ruinous Powers, the Big Four, those frakking gakheads who are truly only there to screw everyone over, and resulted in them (the Loyalist Mechanicus) being murdered by the millions with the same technology they built to defend themselves with. Innocent experiments with a Tau Pulse Rifle could lead to something much more sinister, like integrating warp energies into existing technology and making it temperamental, or even worse, daemonic. The Mechanicus decided that to avoid this entirely they would simply say 'no xenos or chaotic tech at all, ever' and then translate that into a format that humans can easily understand: fear and revulsion. Religion itself is built upon fear. The fear of what will happen should you not obey. This is what the Mechanicus and the Imperium run on and it is there to save them from damnation. It was the best solution to a problem that could only be described as heart-stoppingly terrifying should it ever actually come about. The enslavement of all humanity is nothing to sniff at.

This is why reverse engineering tech is bad. This is why Machine Spirits exist. They are there to dissuade the inquisitive from biting off more than they can chew, and in this grim, dark future, the agonising irony of it all is that it may be the only way to save them from total destruction against the very forces that they are forbidden from interacting with.

Not touching daemonic or warp tech makes sense, same with AI. That's why I didn't mention either of those specifically. The Tau have no Warp presence, and thus their tech is unlikely to be tainted by anything warpy.

Grey Templar wrote:

First off you are completely wrong about the Tau having any superior tech. Everything the Tau have has far superior equivalents in the Imperium's technology. What the issue is the Imperium/Ad Mech doesn't disseminate the tech they have as much as they could. This is for several reasons.

1) Much of the high end technology would require very rare resources. And thus be expensive to produce and maintain. This means they couldn't arm near as many soldiers. Its better to have a million soldiers with lasguns and flak vests than 1000 soldiers with plasma guns and light power armor. Its better to have a million LRBTs than to have 100 Hammerheads. The Imperium could put railguns on their tanks if they wanted, but that would be very expensive and have diminishing returns.

2) Deep in the past, Mankind was almost wiped out by sentient AI. This has left a deep impact on the human psyche. A fear based on a very dangerous and ever present reality. The danger of a robot uprising. This has led to a healthy fear of technology. Its better to be slightly less powerful, but still alive, then to be so advanced you get pushed to extinction by your toaster.

The Imperial Guard may be the most important fighting force in the IoM, but certainly not the only one. Smaller, more elite factions such as Storm Troopers, the Inquisition, and the Adeptus Astartes would certainly benefit from a boost, as they already follow the paradigm of better, more expensive wargear. Additionally, what does and dose not qualify as "more advanced," and what is and isn't available to the Imperium is a matter of some debate, of whichthis thread's argument over stealth technology is indicative.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Fixed my post :p

But yes. Space Marines don't have "flight capability" because they need extra boosters to maneuver in atmosphere - but in zero gravity, they're fully capable of operating, between their void-sealed suits (one of the systems specifically noted as not being included in Sororitas power armour - which also doesn't have the jet vents), maneuvering thrusters and built-in magnetic boots, a Space Marine is perfectly happy fighting on the hull of a space ship or even jumping from one ship to another.

I'm with you on this one, and so is the fluff.

In Macragge's Honour you have marines in their normal power armour who fight on the outer hull of the ship while activating the "mag-lock plates" in their boots:


There's more examples of fighting in space in the comic. You can also see them doing the same in Know No Fear (as seen on the cover):

Both examples are from 30k but I'm sure there's 40k examples as well. Just using images here but I'm sure someone more studious can dig up written examples. The HH series as well as the Forge World series probably has examples as well.

Yeah. The only thing they don't have is true 360 movement (so the coldstar has the advantage these).

Supremacy Armour is noted as being slow by the Tau - that could just mean in comparison to, say, a Riptide.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I think a good example would be what they have to withstand. Some of the really heavy vehicles have been known to tank ( ) metla shots, and those are hot enough to vaporize titanium and steel. So at the very least they have higher heat resistance. And think of all the other things they are up against. Infantry firing .75 cal self-propelled, armour piercing grenades. Lasers powerful enough to blast through steel like it's nothing. All sorts of assorted shells and rockets.

Other things to consider is crew layout and crew jobs. With so many weapons to crew and man that leaves a lot that can go wrong. Another thing to consider is how awful being an Imperial Tank commander must be in the 40k.

So many guns to co ordinate, very few vision slits from memory, very big targets (they are gonna be shaken up ALOT) and whats worse is how huge these guns are. The kick back and the noise would be huge in these tanks.

"Power" is a very simple way of looking at it, but practicality is also a major factor. At the end of the day a balance of practicality, protection and offensive ability is needed in a good tank. Imperial Tanks have offensive power, mediocre protection (armoured apparently but huge targets and not very well designed to take a hit) and completely lack practicality. So really these tanks would not likely be used in a "real" situation as all it takes is one RPG and these guys are in a lot of trouble.

In "real" war usually the tank that wins is the tank that saw the other tank first. As a result tanks have got lower and lower while optics on tanks get better and better. Communication also improves so that tanks can keep updated with other teams on locations and so on. In 40k tanks have very few vision spots (that I can see), terrible silhouette (gonna be seen very quickly) and communication in a tank that has up to 5 guns or more means whatever the tank does is gonna be very tough to communicate.

At the end of the day, it's easy to compare simply guns and armour, but there is so much more to a tank (in my brief knowledge) that makes 40k Imperial tank designs a huge failure in comparison to the majority of real life tanks.

If you want to stop a Leman Russ/Chimera all you need to do is to create muddy fields. Those tanks have such poor clearance that all it takes is a few inches of mud before they are stopped dead. The Imperial Guard would've had a horrible time invading the Soviet Union!

Dirt moves out of the way of the Emperor's Tanks if it knows what's good for it.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Supremacy Armour is noted as being slow by the Tau - that could just mean in comparison to, say, a Riptide.

That is a point. Tau very mobility very highly, even more than the space marines. They don't even fight over ground the same way, prefering to choose their own battles. Honestly, though, we know next to nothing about the Tau'nar, the only information is a single paragraph on the data-sheet.

Psienesis wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I think a good example would be what they have to withstand. Some of the really heavy vehicles have been known to tank ( ) metla shots, and those are hot enough to vaporize titanium and steel. So at the very least they have higher heat resistance. And think of all the other things they are up against. Infantry firing .75 cal self-propelled, armour piercing grenades. Lasers powerful enough to blast through steel like it's nothing. All sorts of assorted shells and rockets.

Other things to consider is crew layout and crew jobs. With so many weapons to crew and man that leaves a lot that can go wrong. Another thing to consider is how awful being an Imperial Tank commander must be in the 40k.

So many guns to co ordinate, very few vision slits from memory, very big targets (they are gonna be shaken up ALOT) and whats worse is how huge these guns are. The kick back and the noise would be huge in these tanks.

"Power" is a very simple way of looking at it, but practicality is also a major factor. At the end of the day a balance of practicality, protection and offensive ability is needed in a good tank. Imperial Tanks have offensive power, mediocre protection (armoured apparently but huge targets and not very well designed to take a hit) and completely lack practicality. So really these tanks would not likely be used in a "real" situation as all it takes is one RPG and these guys are in a lot of trouble.

In "real" war usually the tank that wins is the tank that saw the other tank first. As a result tanks have got lower and lower while optics on tanks get better and better. Communication also improves so that tanks can keep updated with other teams on locations and so on. In 40k tanks have very few vision spots (that I can see), terrible silhouette (gonna be seen very quickly) and communication in a tank that has up to 5 guns or more means whatever the tank does is gonna be very tough to communicate.

At the end of the day, it's easy to compare simply guns and armour, but there is so much more to a tank (in my brief knowledge) that makes 40k Imperial tank designs a huge failure in comparison to the majority of real life tanks.

If you want to stop a Leman Russ/Chimera all you need to do is to create muddy fields. Those tanks have such poor clearance that all it takes is a few inches of mud before they are stopped dead. The Imperial Guard would've had a horrible time invading the Soviet Union!

Dirt moves out of the way of the Emperor's Tanks if it knows what's good for it.

That might have been the most funny thing that I've read on Dakka Chuck Norris wishes he was the at awesomeXD

*Sigh* why do people insist on comparing ww1/ww2/modern tanks to those in 40k....

Obvious plot holes exist to why tanks are in the 40k universe at all.

Personal AT weapons capable of being just as effective as vehicle mounted AT weapons.... unless you get to titan killer size. No real reason mini nukes are not used constantly, and no explanation why aircraft and heli's are not wide spread tank killers.

Arguably you could claim vehicles got so heavily armoured to the point and armed they helped negate these things. IIRC most "tanks" in the 40k universe really are light vehicles used en mass and not even originally designed for combat in most cases, while the superheavies were also light/medium vehicles prior to the imperium using them.

Also why does this rumour of non-suspension for imperium vehicles come from? A) In IA1SE you can clearly see coil spring suspension/shock absorbers for the leman russ. B) Torsion Bars anyone? Plus the ride in massive vehicles will be pretty bad anyway, as in the super heavies case I don't think it's such an issue.

 Peregrine wrote:
I'm saying that the claim that they are has not been supported, at least in the case of the Macharius. 40k tanks suffer from various design flaws that no modern tank designer would even consider, so why assume that their armor is any better? You certainly can't just appeal to "it's adamantium" since adamantium is a completely fictional material. It could be nothing more than the 40k name for a certain kind of steel.

Look at the russ, and most other non SH imperial 40k vehicles, the vast majority were never intended to be combat vehicles during their initial creation. Even then while the average LR uses ww2 style ammo, the vanquisher however most defiantly uses ammo akin to modern ammunition, with one specific round being even more advanced. Then you have the issue why hull mounted guns were removed from modern vehicles..... they were originally the main weapon, as such the 'main' weapon is better in the turret. However having weapons such as a lascannon or heavy bolter which fluff wise are about as easy to use as a heavy machinegun, well why not have your radio operator use them etc?

The main reason multi turreted tanks failed was an inability to armour them, which on superheavies is no longer an issue. Second issue, shared by sponsons and not just turrets, it that it is wasting crew members, when the system is automated and two extra crew specifically added for the job (aka Russ), again it's a none issue as long as you still have your main weapon on the turret. Real life sponsons, such as on the LEE did not have these issues, it's weakness was that it was at a disadvantage vs vehicles with the main gun in the turret.

The only "real" weakness is the high profile in the case of vehicles like leman russes, but alas, it was never intended to be a tank originally.

Lets not forget that one of the big grimdark aspects of Tau are their naivety about the nature of the universe. (Not even considering they are all chemically brainwashed slaves to the ethereals.)

Tau headed toward producing AI which will revolt and cause their own war of Iron Men.

Tau will eventually discover the warp, and the warp will discover them. Tau are too small to have any imprint on the warp but as they grow that will change.

Tau are so small they could at any time become a speed bump for any number of alien factions.

Tau technology in the hands of the Imperium is not impervious to the taint of chaos. Admech has no way of knowing which xenos technology has built in safeguards to destroy, corrupt or disease non-natives who would try to use it. The official doctrine forbids all alien tech, but those with enough power and the desire to risk it and at least think they know better can use alien tech. Lots of times it doesn't do anything harmful. Sometimes it does. There is definitely no way to say "this is Tau so it's safe to use".

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
Admech has no way of knowing which xenos technology has built in safeguards to destroy, corrupt or disease non-natives who would try to use it. The official doctrine forbids all alien tech, but those with enough power and the desire to risk it and at least think they know better can use alien tech. Lots of times it doesn't do anything harmful. Sometimes it does. There is definitely no way to say "this is Tau so it's safe to use".

Tau occasionally hand out their weapon tech to Kroot and Gue'Vesa, so it's clear their tech isn't gene-locked.

Well they can always disable it before handing it out. And crisis suits and alike definitely have such a system to prevent theft.

There's also a path worth thinking down, which is that the Mechanicus is actually right. E.g., performing the Rite of Contrition correctly does magically make tech work. Not just for the ignition to flip over, but for all of the various nightmares of psykers, magic, and the Warp to not cause the ignition to flip (the whole tank) over.
It's clearly set up to be a 'haha, those dumb ol' future savages,' but it's entirely feasible that in the 40K setting thumping a logic engine according to the Rites actually makes the computer work better.
In which case the lack of immediate issues from using alien tech, the lack of immediate come-uppance for races like the Tau, is no more a sign that there are no consequences for their tech-heresies than the lack of immediate issues from the first few cigarettes.

deadairis wrote:
In which case the lack of immediate issues from using alien tech, the lack of immediate come-uppance for races like the Tau, is no more a sign that there are no consequences for their tech-heresies than the lack of immediate issues from the first few cigarettes.

This argument fails when you consider the Necrons, who have a similar lack of concern for turning technology into religious rituals but have been ignoring the supposed consequences for longer than humanity has existed. The obvious answer here is that sensible engineering works just fine in 40k, and the Imperium is just too stupid to do it.


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 Baldeagle91 wrote:
Also why does this rumour of non-suspension for imperium vehicles come from? A) In IA1SE you can clearly see coil spring suspension/shock absorbers for the leman russ. B) Torsion Bars anyone? Plus the ride in massive vehicles will be pretty bad anyway, as in the super heavies case I don't think it's such an issue.

It comes from looking at the model. There's simply no room for the tracks to move upward along those springs because as soon as they move more than an inch or so they pass beyond the edge of the tank's side armor plates and the hull starts to drag on the ground. You can't have a functioning suspension with an inch of ground clearance, no matter how many springs you attach to it.


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 dusara217 wrote:
Now you're just arguing to argue. By you're own admission, you're wrong.

I really have no idea what you're talking about. Mentioning cyclone missile racks is not an admission that your bizarre "every surface of a suit of power armor should be covered in guns" theory is correct.

Also, ghillie suits have very little in common with the technology of camo cloaks. Ghillie suits are fixed comouflage that require very specific locations to work correctly. However, with Camo cloaks, you could literally stand up against a wall and turn the exact color, texture, etc. of the wall. At night, you would be as black as the area around you, or as foliage-like as the foliage you need to hide in.

Sigh. The point is that they function the same. They're more advanced because they can change colors to work in different environments instead of being a single suit that is worthless when you go from a forest into a ruined building. But they still work like real-world camo gear, they make you the same color as your background so you blend in better. This is supported by your own quotes, where it talks about how skilled users can be nearly invisible. If camo cloaks worked like Tau stealth fields then skill would be irrelevant, you simply turn it on and disappear. A Remora drone isn't a highly-trained stealth specialist, it's a floating automated gun platform with a stealth field bolted on.

R'varna and Y'vahra Riptide variants mention that. Not the Supremacy Armour (Forgeworld did not mention this, nor did Lexicanum). All that is said regarding the Supremacy Armour is that the afore-mentioned engineer created it; not that it he went rogue and did it illegally.

Given that the engineer is in trouble for making other giant anime robots I think it's a pretty safe bet that the biggest one is one more in the trend.

In fact, the entries make the Supremacy Armour seem like the Tau military's go-to anti-Titan vehicle.

And this is the problem with trying to look at single quotes out of context without really understanding them. Other Tau fluff specifically mentions that the Tigershark and Manta are the primary Tau answers to titans, and they're quite good at it. A Tigershark is capable of blowing away a Warhound in a single strafing run.

Also, I ignored the Tigershark/Manta because those were not the points of debate.

They're absolutely part of the debate. Your argument here is essentially "lol Tau can't beat titans", and you're trying to ignore explicit fluff examples of the Tau not only defeating titans, but crushing them so utterly that the Imperium ran away from the fight to avoid suffering even more titan losses.

Those are effective Titan-killers, but they were designed for other things

You're partially right. The Manta is designed to kill starships, and just happens to be useful in ground combat. However, the railgun Tigershark is explicitly stated to be a dedicated titan killer, and it's very good at its job.

and the Tau titan wasn't even up to snuff with the weakest of Imperial battletitans (which it was specifically designed to take down).

{citation needed}

Given that there are no fluff examples of fights between the two units I have no idea how you are coming to this conclusion, other than a comparison of game mechanics where the Warhound wins because its rules are blatantly overpowered.

 Peregrine wrote:

deadairis wrote:
In which case the lack of immediate issues from using alien tech, the lack of immediate come-uppance for races like the Tau, is no more a sign that there are no consequences for their tech-heresies than the lack of immediate issues from the first few cigarettes.

This argument fails when you consider the Necrons, who have a similar lack of concern for turning technology into religious rituals but have been ignoring the supposed consequences for longer than humanity has existed. The obvious answer here is that sensible engineering works just fine in 40k, and the Imperium is just too stupid to do it.

Not stupid, as discussed, but afraid.
Also, Necrons are a completely different kettle of fish, who actually had the gods of the material universe on their side. A rather large advantage to the Imperium, even if we are referring to DAOT humanity.

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 Baldeagle91 wrote:
Also why does this rumour of non-suspension for imperium vehicles come from? A) In IA1SE you can clearly see coil spring suspension/shock absorbers for the leman russ. B) Torsion Bars anyone? Plus the ride in massive vehicles will be pretty bad anyway, as in the super heavies case I don't think it's such an issue.

It comes from looking at the model. There's simply no room for the tracks to move upward along those springs because as soon as they move more than an inch or so they pass beyond the edge of the tank's side armor plates and the hull starts to drag on the ground. You can't have a functioning suspension with an inch of ground clearance, no matter how many springs you attach to it.

Again, the model and rules are not canon specifically. Unless we start saying that guardsmen and marines are the same sides, ten marines can't fit in a Rhino and that Creed has a collar taller than his head? It's a facsimile of reality, not an accurate representation.

R'varna and Y'vahra Riptide variants mention that. Not the Supremacy Armour (Forgeworld did not mention this, nor did Lexicanum). All that is said regarding the Supremacy Armour is that the afore-mentioned engineer created it; not that it he went rogue and did it illegally.

Given that the engineer is in trouble for making other giant anime robots I think it's a pretty safe bet that the biggest one is one more in the trend.

Not necessarily. If the suit is used somewhat frequently, then it could also be assumed it was done legally, or even supported by the Ethereal Caste for reasons unknown. It may be common as it is the only one of it's class. The other two are variants of an existing design that works well. The Supremacy Suit is completely new to the Tau.

In fact, the entries make the Supremacy Armour seem like the Tau military's go-to anti-Titan vehicle.

And this is the problem with trying to look at single quotes out of context without really understanding them. Other Tau fluff specifically mentions that the Tigershark and Manta are the primary Tau answers to titans, and they're quite good at it. A Tigershark is capable of blowing away a Warhound in a single strafing run.

Quote please? A single strafing run? I'm not doubting, but I'd like to see this fluff.

Those are effective Titan-killers, but they were designed for other things

You're partially right. The Manta is designed to kill starships, and just happens to be useful in ground combat. However, the railgun Tigershark is explicitly stated to be a dedicated titan killer, and it's very good at its job.

Is it better or worse than the Supremacy, though?

and the Tau titan wasn't even up to snuff with the weakest of Imperial battletitans (which it was specifically designed to take down).

{citation needed}

Given that there are no fluff examples of fights between the two units I have no idea how you are coming to this conclusion, other than a comparison of game mechanics where the Warhound wins because its rules are blatantly overpowered.

Can't comment without seeing some fluff on a fight between these two titans, so I'll agree there.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Again, the model and rules are not canon specifically. Unless we start saying that guardsmen and marines are the same sides, ten marines can't fit in a Rhino and that Creed has a collar taller than his head? It's a facsimile of reality, not an accurate representation.

Then why do fluff pictures of the LRBT have the same flaw? Even the FW cutway drawing that was cited as evidence for the LRBT having a suspension has the exact same problem as the model.

Not necessarily. If the suit is used somewhat frequently, then it could also be assumed it was done legally, or even supported by the Ethereal Caste for reasons unknown. It may be common as it is the only one of it's class. The other two are variants of an existing design that works well. The Supremacy Suit is completely new to the Tau.

You could assume that. Or you could just accept the obvious interpretation that FW has presented, even if they didn't explicitly state it in one product description. There's a very clear theme that these units are all the pet projects of a rogue engineer.

Quote please? A single strafing run? I'm not doubting, but I'd like to see this fluff.

IA3, the only battle where titans are deployed. The Tigershark comes in out of nowhere, kills a Warhound in one pass, and disappears again as the Imperium pulls their titans out of the fight.

Is it better or worse than the Supremacy, though?

It's explicitly stated to be able to fight the larger classes of titans, and its primary role is killing starships that are much tougher than any titan. And given that it's a much bigger unit it's a safe bet that it has much greater firepower as well.

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 Peregrine wrote:

deadairis wrote:
In which case the lack of immediate issues from using alien tech, the lack of immediate come-uppance for races like the Tau, is no more a sign that there are no consequences for their tech-heresies than the lack of immediate issues from the first few cigarettes.

This argument fails when you consider the Necrons, who have a similar lack of concern for turning technology into religious rituals but have been ignoring the supposed consequences for longer than humanity has existed. The obvious answer here is that sensible engineering works just fine in 40k, and the Imperium is just too stupid to do it.

Yes, it seems highly unlikley that Xenso tech is like this, considering the fact that the Eldar have never worshiped their tech for 65 Million Years without any negative repurcussions.

Considering how the Warp works, however, the sheer energies given off from worshiping the objects would more than likely provide Machine Spirits for most of them, which could, more than likely, cause issues with the machinery itself, should you fail to properly praise it. Which means that the simple act of the AdMech's worshiping causes machine-spirits to appear, and makes their lore true.

 dusara217 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Peregrine wrote:

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 dusara217 wrote:
Now you're just arguing to argue. By you're own admission, you're wrong.

I really have no idea what you're talking about. Mentioning cyclone missile racks is not an admission that your bizarre "every surface of a suit of power armor should be covered in guns" theory is correct.

First of all, it's a hypothesis; I have no experimental data to back it up (I don't know why that distinction bugs me, but it REALLY irks me when people make that mistake). Second of all, at no point did I say taht every surface of Power Armour should be covered in guns. I said that Tactical Dreadnought Armour would be more than capable of fitting additional weapons onto the suit itself. Which you seem to be arguing against without actually giving any arguments that say it wouldn't work. Yes, it would take a lot of work to fit on additional weaponry. Yes, it would take a boatload of man hours. Yes, there are no technical specifications about the suit, which would alert us to the incompatibility of the suit with chassis-mounted weaponry. However, none of this mean that it isn't possible.

Also, ghillie suits have very little in common with the technology of camo cloaks. Ghillie suits are fixed comouflage that require very specific locations to work correctly. However, with Camo cloaks, you could literally stand up against a wall and turn the exact color, texture, etc. of the wall. At night, you would be as black as the area around you, or as foliage-like as the foliage you need to hide in.

Sigh. The point is that they function the same. They're more advanced because they can change colors to work in different environments instead of being a single suit that is worthless when you go from a forest into a ruined building. But they still work like real-world camo gear, they make you the same color as your background so you blend in better. This is supported by your own quotes, where it talks about how skilled users can be nearly invisible. If camo cloaks worked like Tau stealth fields then skill would be irrelevant, you simply turn it on and disappear. A Remora drone isn't a highly-trained stealth specialist, it's a floating automated gun platform with a stealth field bolted on.

No, skill most definitely is relevant. When you see that invisible guy making boot-prints in the dirt, and you know that this technology exists, it's pretty dang obvious what's going on. When somebody's trying to be stealthy, and they don't know how to move quietly, they will, more than likely, be discovered (as there is nothing stated about the Tau Stealth tech that mentions avoiding Thermals imaging, infrared, etc.). However, I do see your point about the camouflage being camouflage regardless of how advanced it is.

Given that there are no fluff examples of fights between the two units I have no idea how you are coming to this conclusion, other than a comparison of game mechanics where the Warhound wins because its rules are blatantly overpowered.

I'm just going to sum up everything about the Tau Titan right here:

1.) my mistake about the engineer

2.) I'm starting to feel like you aren't reading the arguments of the person you are arguing with. I specifically said that I compared the in-fluff weapons given to the Warhound and the Supremacy Armour, I compared the in-fluff cited speeds of them ("slow" compared with "fastest Imperial Titan" (if Mechanicum is a good source, or the Priests of Mars)), in-fluff cited armour levels, and in-fluff cited weaponry. They've got comparable in-fluff weaponry. Comparable armour. However, the Warhound's ambush capabilities and speed give it the edge

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 Peregrine wrote:

deadairis wrote:
In which case the lack of immediate issues from using alien tech, the lack of immediate come-uppance for races like the Tau, is no more a sign that there are no consequences for their tech-heresies than the lack of immediate issues from the first few cigarettes.

This argument fails when you consider the Necrons, who have a similar lack of concern for turning technology into religious rituals but have been ignoring the supposed consequences for longer than humanity has existed. The obvious answer here is that sensible engineering works just fine in 40k, and the Imperium is just too stupid to do it.

Yes, it seems highly unlikley that Xenso tech is like this, considering the fact that the Eldar have never worshiped their tech for 65 Million Years without any negative repurcussions.

Considering how the Warp works, however, the sheer energies given off from worshiping the objects would more than likely provide Machine Spirits for most of them, which could, more than likely, cause issues with the machinery itself, should you fail to properly praise it. Which means that the simple act of the AdMech's worshiping causes machine-spirits to appear, and makes their lore true.

Alternatively, machine spirits exist as AI fragments from the DAoT, and have incorporated themselves into STC patterns, which is why every machine has a spirit, and not just the older, more powerful ones.

 asorel wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Peregrine wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dusara217 wrote:
Now you're just arguing to argue. By you're own admission, you're wrong.

I really have no idea what you're talking about. Mentioning cyclone missile racks is not an admission that your bizarre "every surface of a suit of power armor should be covered in guns" theory is correct.

First of all, it's a hypothesis; I have no experimental data to back it up (I don't know why that distinction bugs me, but it REALLY irks me when people make that mistake). Second of all, at no point did I say taht every surface of Power Armour should be covered in guns. I said that Tactical Dreadnought Armour would be more than capable of fitting additional weapons onto the suit itself. Which you seem to be arguing against without actually giving any arguments that say it wouldn't work. Yes, it would take a lot of work to fit on additional weaponry. Yes, it would take a boatload of man hours. Yes, there are no technical specifications about the suit, which would alert us to the incompatibility of the suit with chassis-mounted weaponry. However, none of this mean that it isn't possible.

Also, ghillie suits have very little in common with the technology of camo cloaks. Ghillie suits are fixed comouflage that require very specific locations to work correctly. However, with Camo cloaks, you could literally stand up against a wall and turn the exact color, texture, etc. of the wall. At night, you would be as black as the area around you, or as foliage-like as the foliage you need to hide in.

Sigh. The point is that they function the same. They're more advanced because they can change colors to work in different environments instead of being a single suit that is worthless when you go from a forest into a ruined building. But they still work like real-world camo gear, they make you the same color as your background so you blend in better. This is supported by your own quotes, where it talks about how skilled users can be nearly invisible. If camo cloaks worked like Tau stealth fields then skill would be irrelevant, you simply turn it on and disappear. A Remora drone isn't a highly-trained stealth specialist, it's a floating automated gun platform with a stealth field bolted on.

No, skill most definitely is relevant. When you see that invisible guy making boot-prints in the dirt, and you know that this technology exists, it's pretty dang obvious what's going on. When somebody's trying to be stealthy, and they don't know how to move quietly, they will, more than likely, be discovered (as there is nothing stated about the Tau Stealth tech that mentions avoiding Thermals imaging, infrared, etc.). However, I do see your point about the camouflage being camouflage regardless of how advanced it is.

Given that there are no fluff examples of fights between the two units I have no idea how you are coming to this conclusion, other than a comparison of game mechanics where the Warhound wins because its rules are blatantly overpowered.

I'm just going to sum up everything about the Tau Titan right here:

1.) my mistake about the engineer

2.) I'm starting to feel like you aren't reading the arguments of the person you are arguing with. I specifically said that I compared the in-fluff weapons given to the Warhound and the Supremacy Armour, I compared the in-fluff cited speeds of them ("slow" compared with "fastest Imperial Titan" (if Mechanicum is a good source, or the Priests of Mars)), in-fluff cited armour levels, and in-fluff cited weaponry. They've got comparable in-fluff weaponry. Comparable armour. However, the Warhound's ambush capabilities and speed give it the edge

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

deadairis wrote:
In which case the lack of immediate issues from using alien tech, the lack of immediate come-uppance for races like the Tau, is no more a sign that there are no consequences for their tech-heresies than the lack of immediate issues from the first few cigarettes.

This argument fails when you consider the Necrons, who have a similar lack of concern for turning technology into religious rituals but have been ignoring the supposed consequences for longer than humanity has existed. The obvious answer here is that sensible engineering works just fine in 40k, and the Imperium is just too stupid to do it.

Yes, it seems highly unlikley that Xenso tech is like this, considering the fact that the Eldar have never worshiped their tech for 65 Million Years without any negative repurcussions.

Considering how the Warp works, however, the sheer energies given off from worshiping the objects would more than likely provide Machine Spirits for most of them, which could, more than likely, cause issues with the machinery itself, should you fail to properly praise it. Which means that the simple act of the AdMech's worshiping causes machine-spirits to appear, and makes their lore true.

Alternatively, machine spirits exist as AI fragments from the DAoT, and have incorporated themselves into STC patterns, which is why every machine has a spirit, and not just the older, more powerful ones.

 dusara217 wrote:
snip

 asorel wrote:

Alternatively, machine spirits exist as AI fragments from the DAoT, and have incorporated themselves into STC patterns, which is why every machine has a spirit, and not just the older, more powerful ones.

Honestly, this pretty much sums up my headcanon on Machine Spirits.

A machine spirit is not necessarily an AI, just a fragment of one or a very basic imitation of one that has the potential to become a fully fledged AI should it gain the processing power needed to sustain higher level thought functions. They are built into the STCs themselves as an integrated micromanagement system. Why let the operator worry about the internals when you can have a self-correcting intelligent program do it for you? Those one-in-a-million shots you get from random guardsmen who are trying to hold the line against impossible odds? That's the Lasgun's machine spirit pulling just enough processing power out of the integrated cogitators to help said guardsman put a beam solidly through a Hive Tyrant's eye socket and fry its entire brain. A machine spirit is intensely, fiercely loyal to the person who looks after it, and will do its best to ensure that its owner will survive no matter what. Very optimistic and full of speculation, I know, but this - to me - makes sense.

The story behind this headcanon is probably not fit for this board so I'll stick it somewhere else when I get the time but long story short one of the guys I RP with is a Techpriest and basically makes up gak like this to explain away inconsistencies and nonsense that occur from fluff conflict and he's really rather good at it

 DevoutGuardsman wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
snip

 asorel wrote:

Alternatively, machine spirits exist as AI fragments from the DAoT, and have incorporated themselves into STC patterns, which is why every machine has a spirit, and not just the older, more powerful ones.

Honestly, this pretty much sums up my headcanon on Machine Spirits.

A machine spirit is not necessarily an AI, just a fragment of one or a very basic imitation of one that has the potential to become a fully fledged AI should it gain the processing power needed to sustain higher level thought functions. They are built into the STCs themselves as an integrated micromanagement system. Why let the operator worry about the internals when you can have a self-correcting intelligent program do it for you? Those one-in-a-million shots you get from random guardsmen who are trying to hold the line against impossible odds? That's the Lasgun's machine spirit pulling just enough processing power out of the integrated cogitators to help said guardsman put a beam solidly through a Hive Tyrant's eye socket and fry its entire brain. A machine spirit is intensely, fiercely loyal to the person who looks after it, and will do its best to ensure that its owner will survive no matter what. Very optimistic and full of speculation, I know, but this - to me - makes sense.

The story behind this headcanon is probably not fit for this board so I'll stick it somewhere else when I get the time but long story short one of the guys I RP with is a Techpriest and basically makes up gak like this to explain away inconsistencies and nonsense that occur from fluff conflict and he's really rather good at it

That is a tad optimistic, especially with the stories we have already of corrupted STCs that backfire on creators. Tanks that immediately fire at anything that move once activated, lasguns that explode in the bearer's hands, and so on. I view machine spirits as a lesser form of this corruption.