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This discussion is between me and two other people. The prompt was made by our local Tau player:

His words
"Optimized Stealth Cadre says its bonus affects "the weapons of units of Stealth Battlesuits from this formation" within 12" of the formation's Ghostkeel.

#1: If one of the XV25 stealth teams takes drones, does the unit still benefit? The drones don't have Stealth Battlesuit wargear, but they are considered extra squad members in every way, and the team entry is called XV25 Stealth Battlesuits.

#2: If Shadowsun joins the unit, does she benefit? She is now part of the unit and she has a stealth battlesuit, but is the unit still a unit from the formation? Would she disallow the entire squad from benefiting? I think it has to be either or, no partials, since the BRB says IC's are considered part of the unit for rule purposes

#3: what about an Ethereal? Is the unit still an XV25 Stealth Battlesuits unit with an Ethereal attached?


One person in the group posits the following and gave a link to an old YMDC argument.
"The IC is part of a different detachment/formation and the rules specifically state units from one formation cannot gain benefits of a different formation.

So again, conclusion: IC cannot gain benefits no matter what.

...
units cannot gain benefits OR be a part of a different formation. In fact one could argue the IC can't even join the unit. I would need to read up on that though so don't quote me on that."
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/611160.page


What do you say dakka? Can IC join units in other formations? Do they count as being part of the unit? Does the unit still count as being in the formation?

#1. The unit still benefits because it is a unit of Stealth Battlesuits. If it said "units comprised entirely of models with Stealth Battlesuits", then drones would deny the benefits.
#2. Whilst attached to a unit, an IC is considered to be a normal member of the unit for all purposes. As such when joined, it is still a unit of Stealth Battlesuits from the formation. In order to deny the benefit, it would need to say something like "units of Stealth Battlesuits comprised entirely of models with this special rule" or something similar.

Dakka says
Yes.
Yes/No.
Yes/No.

Please note however, that those who say no, still have not backed their argument with any rules.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
One person in the group posits the following and gave a link to an old YMDC argument.
"The IC is part of a different detachment/formation and the rules specifically state units from one formation cannot gain benefits of a different formation.

So again, conclusion: IC cannot gain benefits no matter what.
...
units cannot gain benefits OR be a part of a different formation. In fact one could argue the IC can't even join the unit. I would need to read up on that though so don't quote me on that."
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/611160.page

There is a rule that states that a unit can only be part of one detachment (combined detachments like the Gladius Strike Force being an exception). There is no rule that units cannot gain benefits from a different formation, specifically, they just don't normally benefit because they are not in that detachment.

That having been said, it depends on how the rule is written. For example, if a Detachment provides the units in it with Stubborn, and an IC from that detachment joins a unit from another detachment, that unit would be able to have the benefit of Stubborn. However, if a Formation provides its units with Relentless, than the IC would not be able to give the benefits of Relentless to a unit it joined, but just have it on their own.

Some Detachment Rules are specific in who it affects, such as Combined Arms Troops Units, or Skyhammer Annihilation Assault Squads. These units do not stop being those units when an IC joins them, and the ICs who join them are considered part of those units for all rules purposes.

Don't know the RAW exactly but we use the following logic:


"the weapons of units of Stealth Battlesuits from this formation"

Look at the codex entry for the formation, is shadowsun part of that codex entry? No she isn't so formation rules don't apply to her unless theyare rules of the "if one model has it, the unit gets it" kind (e.g. Shrouded)

Are drones part of the formation? Yes, the formation lists units of xv25 stealth suits and if we look at the codex entry for xv25 stealth suits, drones do make up part of that unit so they are included in "units of stealth battlesuits".

DaPino - UNITS OF is the operative word there

While attached, Shadowsun is absolutely a member of a Unit of Stealth Battlesuits from that formaiton. As such she benefits.

This is unambiguous.

Much hate can be had for the 'for all Rule purposes' clause within the Independent Character Special Rule, but that doesn't grant us permission to ignore it willingly.

Any statements that the Independent Character will not benefit from Rule resolving against the Unit as a whole can never be 'Rule as Written' supported. The 'for all Rule purposes' clause exists for the very purpose of forcing every other Rule in the game to treat the Independent Character as a member of the Joined Unit. Therefore every Rule in the game will have to be Resolved as if the Independent Character is a member of that Unit, at least until the conditions for leaving the Unit have been met.

One could even argue that the Rule informing us what Models the Unit is composed of are forced to treat the Independent Character as a member of that Unit.
The only section on a Datasheet that doesn't transfer to the Independent Character are the Special Rules, because they have a specific restriction against doing so.

DaPino wrote:
Don't know the RAW exactly but we use the following logic:


"the weapons of units of Stealth Battlesuits from this formation"

Look at the codex entry for the formation, is shadowsun part of that codex entry? No she isn't so formation rules don't apply to her unless theyare rules of the "if one model has it, the unit gets it" kind (e.g. Shrouded)

Are drones part of the formation? Yes, the formation lists units of xv25 stealth suits and if we look at the codex entry for xv25 stealth suits, drones do make up part of that unit so they are included in "units of stealth battlesuits".

Here's the logic I've always followed.

Is the independent character allowed to join the unit? Yes
Are independent characters treated as part of the unit? Yes
Is the unit in the formation? Yes

So the independent character is treated as part of the formation and benefits with the rest of them.

If you can disprove any of the above then the independent character wouldn't benefit.

Some example questions of how these rules affect the game: ( I play space marines so these are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head)

If a formation grants stealth to a unit in that formation (listed as a special rule) and you attach the independent character to that unit, does the independent character benefit from stealth as well?

Or what if you have a librarian from a conclave and attached it to a tactical squad in a CAD. Does the librarian benefit from obsec?

Or what if you have a librarian from a conclave and attached it to a tactical squad in a Demi-Company? Does the Librarian benefit from tactical doctrine?

What about skyhammer?

These all deal with the same kind of things, but I don't think anyone has a clear consensus on how all of this works.

1) yes, the drones are wholly part of the unit in the formation.

2) yes, while joined she is a member of a stealth battlesuit unit from the formation(the fact that she is wearing a form of stealth suit is irrelevant and she loses any command benefits that would apply from the detatchment/formation she is from excepting if both her and the stealth cadre are part of a hunter cadre; the base hunter cadre benefits still apply to her as she is in a formation within it)

3) same as 2.

Formation benefits and detatchment command benefits apply to the units comprising them, ICs become members of the unit they have joined for all rules purposes; whether a unit is part of a given detachment is absolutely a rules purpose.

JinxDragon wrote:
The only section on a Datasheet that doesn't transfer to the Independent Character are the Special Rules, because they have a specific restriction against doing so.

Well, the profiles, too, but that is because their profile isn't listed there.

And for other's clarity, the Special Rules may not transfer, but the benefit may be to the unit, which would then connect to what JD said earlier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Here's the logic I've always followed.

Is the independent character allowed to join the unit? Yes
Are independent characters treated as part of the unit? Yes
Is the unit in the formation? Yes

So the independent character is treated as part of the formation and benefits with the rest of them.

If you can disprove any of the above then the independent character wouldn't benefit.

Some example questions of how these rules affect the game: ( I play space marines so these are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head)

If a formation grants stealth to a unit in that formation (listed as a special rule) and you attach the independent character to that unit, does the independent character benefit from stealth as well?

Or what if you have a librarian from a conclave and attached it to a tactical squad in a CAD. Does the librarian benefit from obsec?

Or what if you have a librarian from a conclave and attached it to a tactical squad in a Demi-Company? Does the Librarian benefit from tactical doctrine?

What about skyhammer?

These all deal with the same kind of things, but I don't think anyone has a clear consensus on how all of this works.

Oddly enough, you will see people give the IC benefits of the CAD, stealth, and the tactical doctrine, but not the Skyhammer. It is quite the remarkable double standard.

Indeed,
Resolving a Special Rule at the 'Unit Level' does not require every Model within the Unit to have the Special Rule.

Ok so here we go,

They are saying that there is a rule stating that a model can never be part of two detachments, and that if it counts as being in part of the formation for the purposes of gaining the rules that it violates this rule.

Its sounds like legit RAW, but it also sounds like this could be applied to mean IC can't join any units outside their own detachment...which is stupid.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Ok so here we go,

They are saying that there is a rule stating that a model can never be part of to detachments, and that if it counts as being in part of the formation for the purposes of gaining the rules that it violates this rule.

Its sounds like legit RAW, but it also sounds like this could be applied to mean IC can't join any units outside their own detachment...which is stupid.

And would totally invalidate the rule that allows an Independent Character to join an allied unit as long as they're Battle Brothers.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
DaPino - UNITS OF is the operative word there

While attached, Shadowsun is absolutely a member of a Unit of Stealth Battlesuits from that formaiton. As such she benefits.

This is unambiguous.

Quoted for truth. The formation does not necessitate that you need to be part of the formation, nor does any such rule specify this. Seriously considering running farsight CAD to unlock O'Vesa for exactly these shenanigans

"Formation Special Rules
Every Formation will include one or more special rules associated with the units that make up that Formation. The special rules for a Formation only apply to the units that make it up (even if there are other units of the same type in your army)."

This is from the tyranid rising leviathan dataslate. I know it exists in other rulebooks, but this was the first place I could find it in my google playbooks collection.

"make up that formation" is the qualifier.

You can take models onto units from a formation, but that doesn't mean that model is part of what "makes up" that formation, it's simply part of the unit.

That helped me make my determination that external models do NOT get the benefit, but I could be wrong and am very ready to listen to reasons why you think I am.

An Independent Character that joins a unit usually won't gain the rules the unit has, but it by no means prevent them from being affected by those rules.

The passage you quoted only deals with who has those rules, not who is affected by those rules.

 Ghaz wrote:
An Independent Character that joins a unit usually won't gain the rules the unit has, but it by no means prevent them from being affected by those rules.

The passage you quoted only deals with who has those rules, not who is affected by those rules.

"special rules for a Formation only apply to the units that make it up"

Why does "apply to the units that make it up" not deal with affect? I'm reading that as Special rules(noun) apply(verb exercising affect) to units(direct object) that make it up(adverb acting as a qualifier). Admittedly I wasn't the best student of grammatical rules.

EDIT:

ap·ply
əˈplī/Submit
verb
1.
make a formal application or request.
"you need to apply to the local authorities for a grant"
synonyms: put in an application for, put in for, try (out) for, bid for, appeal for, petition for, sue for, register for, audition for; More
2.
be applicable or relevant.
"the offer does not apply to unionized workers"
synonyms: be relevant, have relevance, have a bearing, appertain, pertain, relate, concern, affect, involve, cover, deal with, touch; More

Yes, only the units in the Formation have those special rules. The special rule itself says what it does or does not affect. For example, if one of the special rules of a Formation is Slow and Purposeful, then that rule only applies to units in that formation (i.e., only models in that formation have Slow and Purposeful). However, Slow and Purposeful will affect models without the rule as long as one model in the unit has the rule. The formation applies special rules to the units that make up the formation, but the special rule can apply its affects to other models that are not a part of the formation.

Ah, I think I see. So the vantage you're arguing for is this is an instance of the rule breaks/surpasses the overall formation standard rules, much like codex special rules often "violate"(legally) larger core rules, because the rule itself dictates a specific target of affect not limited to the formation.

I can see/humor that.

I hate the result, but I can get behind that.

That solution is not a general solution.

Formation rule: All units in the formation get fearless. Then an IC that joins a unit in that formation gets fearless because the fearless rules says it confers to the unit.

Formation rule: All units in the formation get +1BS. Then an IC that joins a unit in that formation does NOT get the +1BS because it is not part of that formation. The IC only joined a unit in that formation.

Thermal_Plague wrote:
That solution is not a general solution.

Actually it is, and that is how the rules are set up.

Thermal_Plague wrote:
Formation rule: All units in the formation get fearless. Then an IC that joins a unit in that formation gets fearless because the fearless rules says it confers to the unit.

Not quite in a literal fashion. It can be used for short hand, but it is not actually what happens. What happens is the unit the IC is in automatically passes its Leadership Test. The IC is never actually considered for this affect, and doesn't actually GET Fearless.

With Slow and Purposeful, the unit doesn't allow its movement or the weapons it uses to affect its ability to roll To-Hits or to Charge. It doesn't matter if it is the IC or the joined unit who starts with it.

Thermal_Plague wrote:
Formation rule: All units in the formation get +1BS. Then an IC that joins a unit in that formation does NOT get the +1BS because it is not part of that formation. The IC only joined a unit in that formation.

Incorrect. The IC is still part of the unit as much for this as it is for Fearless, Stubborn, or Slow and Purposeful.

Now, if it stated, "Models from this Formation" a foreign IC would not be included. If the IC from this Formation joined a unit from a foreign detachment, the unit would not gain this benefit

I am not really sure how to respond to you. You basically said I was wrong, but then gave examples that agreed with me. So, I think we agree on everything?

If a rule says "if one or more models in a unit" like your example OR my example, then a "foreign" IC gets the benefit.

If the rule does not say something like "one more models in a unit" and the formation itself says something like "units in this formation" then a foreign IC would not get the benefit.

I think we are saying the same thing here!

Thermal_Plague wrote:
I am not really sure how to respond to you. You basically said I was wrong, but then gave examples that agreed with me. So, I think we agree on everything?

The first part was correct in spirit, but not in words. An IC without Fearless who joins a unit with Fearless does not actually GET Fearless, he just benefits from it.

Thermal_Plague wrote:
If a rule says "if one or more models in a unit" like your example OR my example, then a "foreign" IC gets the benefit.

That is true, but that phrase is not the only way to define it. Some people get stuck on it and actually ignore everything else rules state.

Thermal_Plague wrote:
If the rule does not say something like "one more models in a unit" and the formation itself says something like "units in this formation" then a foreign IC would not get the benefit.

I think we are saying the same thing here!

That would be incorrect.

For example, the phrase, "units in this formation" does not exclude IC models purchased from a different formation any more than "if one or more models in a unit" does. The IC is still as much a part of the unit in either case.

There are basically 3 ways a rule operates:
1) Exclusive to the models who possess them. These are rules provided by their datasheets and their detachment's special rules This is the base standard as defined in the opening of the Special Rules. Unless a rule specifies it working for a unit or similar, this is how the rule works.

2) Rules benefit both ICs and units, no matter who has the rule. This is the second most common rule type, usually found in USRs and some unique rules found in Independent Characters. These rules do not care if all the models have it or not, and will transfer benefits from IC to unit, and/or unit to IC. In USRs, they usually come with the familiar phrase, "if one or more models in a unit have this special rule", or the much less common "this model and any unit it joins" in cases of Independent Characters.

3) There are rules that state a unit is gets the benefit, but nothing else. These have come around with Formations and their Special Rules, but also apply to Detachments since 7th Edition started. This is a one way road and affects all the models in the unit who have the rule. This is usually provided by Formations or Detachments. All models in the unit get the benefit of this rule, and this is not limited exclusively to the original models of the unit. However, when an IC with this rule joins another unit, it joins THEIR unit as another model, and does not qualify as one of the units with the rule.

For example, an IC joins a Troops unit of a Combined Arms Detachment who has Objective Secured. The IC is now part of a Troops unit can be the only model within an Objective Marker's range and still have it Secured. However, if an IC from a Combined Arms Detachment joins a Troops unit from a Detachment without Objective Secured, the Troops unit does not gain the benefits of the Objective Secured rule, since that Troops unit is not from the Detachment which grants Objective Secured.

I think we agree on 99%.

Ok let me just give you the exact rules on why I don't agree. Give me a good response to it and I will go away:

Rule: "no unit can belong to more than one Detachment"
Rule#2: "you must tell your opponent what units belong to what Detachment and what Command Benefits each will receive before deployment"
Rule#3: Command Benefits "special rules or benefits apply to some or all of the models in that Detachment"


Those are quotes from the BRB. So I am hung up on the idea that a formation benefit is for the models in that formation not the units. More importantly, I am hung up on the rule that an IC cant belong to more than one Detachment. Hence, a CAD HQ unit is part of the CAD, even if the HQ unit joins a unit in another detachment, that HQ unit is still in the CAD and thus is not part of the other formation and thus does not get the formation benefits.

The only way I see around this is rules like slow and purposeful. Otherwise, per the rules I quoted it doesnt seem like an IC will get the bonus. This would be easily cleared up with a 1 sentence FAQ.

Thaty would work, except for the rule stating the unit benefits

Once joined to the unit, the IC is absilutely for all rule purposes a normal member of the unit.

If you deny them the benefit that the unit gains, you have broken this rule.

Stating that Special Rules granted by Command Benefits apply to some or all of the Models in said Detachment is the same as stating Special Rules granted by a Datasheet apply to all or some of the Models on said Datasheet.
Both are factually accurate, but neither of them describe the way the Rules are interacting with each other once they are removed from their vacuums....

No one is stating that a Formation stating that the X Unit gains Y grants an Independent Character Y on Joining. People are simply pointing out it is still entirely possible for the Rule itself to target 'Models within a/the/x Unit,' of which there are many ways for a Rule to do just that. Within those situations the Independent Character is undeniably a Model within that Unit for this purpose, as the Independent Character Special Rule tells us thus. Much as I despise the 'for all Rule purpose' clause for being vague, just ask the Psychic Phase what the bad Rule has done to it, no one can state it doesn't do it's job well.

The Independent Character might as well be on the Unit Datasheet for the duration of being joined....

Thermal_Plague wrote:
I think we agree on 99%.

Ok let me just give you the exact rules on why I don't agree. Give me a good response to it and I will go away:

Rule: "no unit can belong to more than one Detachment"
Rule#2: "you must tell your opponent what units belong to what Detachment and what Command Benefits each will receive before deployment"
Rule#3: Command Benefits "special rules or benefits apply to some or all of the models in that Detachment"

Those are quotes from the BRB. So I am hung up on the idea that a formation benefit is for the models in that formation not the units. More importantly, I am hung up on the rule that an IC cant belong to more than one Detachment. Hence, a CAD HQ unit is part of the CAD, even if the HQ unit joins a unit in another detachment, that HQ unit is still in the CAD and thus is not part of the other formation and thus does not get the formation benefits.

The only way I see around this is rules like slow and purposeful. Otherwise, per the rules I quoted it doesnt seem like an IC will get the bonus. This would be easily cleared up with a 1 sentence FAQ.

When dealing with a rule that a unit possesses and an IC does not, there is absolutely no difference in an IC's membership in a unit when a rule states "If at least one model in the unit has this special rule...", and "A unit from this detachment gets X benefit". Without a difference, there is no reason for excluding the IC. "A unit from this detachment" is never defined as "Only the original models of a unit purchased in this detachment". Without such a definition, rules such as Combined Arms "Objective Secured" and Skyhammer's "First the Fire, Then the Blade" cannot exempt joined ICs from qualified units without a House Rule (ITC's FAQ counts as a House Rule, btw).

The other way around cannot be stated, though. The IC cannot bring the unit he joins in to HIS unit. An IG Commissar Lord joining a Space Marine Scout Squad becomes a Commissar Lord model in the Scout Squad, the Scouts do not become members of the Commisar Lord unit, nor do they stop being a Scout Squad, and the Commisar Lord unit temporarily ceases to be recognized. So, if the Commissar Lord was from a Combined Arms Detachment, and the Scouts were from their Codex Formation, the Scouts would not have the benefits of Combined Arms Objective Secured since it is not a unit of the Combined Arms Detachment.

Now, when a rule does not state it affects a unit, the joined IC isn't touched.

I don't know what the wording is of the Formation being referenced by the OP, so I cannot state for sure how it goes specifically. I am just addressing how the rules work on a general basis.

There are rules which allow an IC to join an unit and be part of that unit.

There are rules saying that models are put into formations/detachments before the game begins,and no model may belong to one.

So an IC can join the unit, but an IC is not from the formation the unit belongs to. If that were the case joining an IC that was warlord to an allied unit would make your army illegal as your warlord is now part of the allied detachment, and the allied detachment cannot include your warlord. Discounting numerous issues such as this- there is no permission for an IC attached to an unit to belong to that units formation/detachment, and there is specific ruling stating otherwise.

If the rule in question said something like:

"the weapons of units of Stealth Battlesuits with this special rule do x" Then it could be argued that the IC attached is part of the unit and the rule affects the unit.

but the rule says

"the weapons of units of Stealth Battlesuits from this formation"

which specifies the unit AND the formation. The IC will never be part of the unit from that formation, the IC will be part of the unit if joined, but never the unit from that formation.

That's odd, so you're saying the IC is not a normal member of the unit for that rules purpose?

Oops, guess that's breaking a rule. Argument refuted.

Attached ICs are clearly considered to be members of the unit. The unit is clearly a part of the formation. Unambiguously yes to all three questions.

Undeniably so. It takes a really perverse reading of the rules , and flat out ignoring another rule entirely, to come to any other conclusion.