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vitae_drinker wrote:
Incorrect. You are violating the IC rules (becoming part of the unit for all rules purposes). Just because you disagree does not mean you ignore a rule.

And you are violating the IC rules, as "Wall of Mirrors" does not state that "it applies to the unit and models attached to it" nor is it worded in a permissive manner.

It is specific to models from that Formation.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wall of Mirrors applies to the unit, and if she is part of the unit (to abide by the IC "part of the unit for all rules purposes") the rule must apply to her as well. Does not violate the secondary IC rule restriction as the rule specifically affects the unit, not models.

She can be part of the unit and still not be part of the Formation. Read page 121.

Command Benefits:
This section of the Detachment lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in that Detachment.

Formations: Formations are a special type of Detachment, each a specific grouping of units renowned for their effectiveness on the battlefields of the 41st Millenium...

So, unless she is taken as part of the Formation--no. She cannot.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

vitae_drinker wrote:
Incorrect. She is part of the unit for all rules purposes.

Except it actually is correct.

The Rules pg 166 under "Special Rules wrote:Unless specified in the rule itself(as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit.

"The Wall of Mirrors" special rule does not permit an attached character, Stealth Battlesuit or not, to gain Ignores Cover, add 1 to their BS, or get the guaranteed rear armour hit.


Resolve it separately.

Where does Stubborn say that it is conferred to ICs?

The Rules pg 172 wrote:When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule...

There is nothing in the wording for "The Wall of Mirrors" that it is similarly permissive.

This, quite frankly, is just coming down to a repeat of the Skyhammer nonsense. People who opt for "The rules don't say I can't, so it does" will be the exact same while people who opt for "The rules don't say you can, so you can't" will be the exact same again.

Ah so more ad hominem, when your argument fails again

Do you actually know what "ad hominem" means?

Saying that it is "just coming down to a repeat of the Skyhammer nonsense" is not ad hominem. I'm not by any stretch of the imagination attacking the poster rather than the argument.

She is a member of a unit from the formation. She gains the benefit of the rule.

She is a member of a unit from the Formation, but not from the Formation.

Resolving separately without these benefits is cheating, as you are breaking the absolute IC rule.

Show me in the rulebook where resolving hits with different weapons/rules in a single unit is "cheating".

Kanluwen, does the rule in question say models from the formation or units from the formation?

Kan - no, it specifies units from the formation. The unit is indisputably still from the formation
the insult was stating the made up by you quote stating the argument is "it doesn't say I can't".

That is a lie on your part, is an attempt to argue the person posting and not the actual argument

The actual argument is that the IC is a normal member of the unit for ALL rules,purpose

This is a rules purpose

Resolving without applying the rule is cheating. That's very basic, I'm not sure I need to supply a rule telling you that not following a rule, which isn't optional, isn't cheating. I'm puzzled you're asking for one.

Part 1: The IC becomes part of the unit for "all rules purposes."

Part 2: ICs joining units only have special rules applied to them if the rules specifically states it applies.

Part 3: The Wall of Mirrors states that the rule applies to any units of Stealth Battlesuits withing x" of a Ghostkeel in the formation.

Part 4: As Shadowsun is part of the unit, all rules that apply to the unit apply to her as well. Ergo, the Wall of Mirrors applies to her as well.

 Happyjew wrote:
Kanluwen, does the rule in question say models from the formation or units from the formation?

Happyjew, is Shadowsun part of the formation or not?

Shadowsun does not suddenly cease to be Shadowsun because she is part of a unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Kan - no, it specifies units from the formation. The unit is indisputably still from the formation
the insult was stating the made up by you quote stating the argument is "it doesn't say I can't".

Erm, no.

That is a lie on your part, is an attempt to argue the person posting and not the actual argument

Actually it's a generalization. Calling it a lie is an ad hominem though. The crux of the argument comes down to permissive v. restrictive, just like it did with Skyhammer.
Hence my post:

Kanluwen wrote:This, quite frankly, is just coming down to a repeat of the Skyhammer nonsense. People who opt for "The rules don't say I can't, so it does" will be the exact same while people who opt for "The rules don't say you can, so you can't" will be the exact same again.

The actual argument is that the IC is a normal member of the unit for ALL rules,purpose

Except for y'know, these specific statements like:

The Rules" page 166 wrote:Special Rules:
Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them

Does "Ignores Cover" specify that it is granted to a unit? No. It specifically applies to a weapon with the Ignores Cover special rule.
"The Wall of Mirrors" special rule states the following:

Kauyon page 72 wrote:
SPECIAL RULES:
The Wall of Mirrors: At the start of your shooting phase, this Formation can network their stealth fields to create a Wall of Mirrors. If you do so, then the weapons used by the Formation's Ghostkeels, and by any unit of Stealth Battlesuits from this Formation that are within 6" of a Ghostkeel from this Formation, have the Ignores Cover special rule, and these models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill for that Shooting phase. In addition, their weapons are assumed to strike the rear armour of any vehicle that they hit, no matter what its actual facing.

It's a special rule specific to the Formation's Stealth Suits and Ghostkeels, and since it does not specify that it can be applied to a character in the unit?
It does not.

This is a rules purpose

Actually, it's not. It's a Formation Special Rule--and "Special Rules" states that:

The Rules" page 166 wrote:Special Rules:
Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them

Resolving without applying the rule is cheating. That's very basic, I'm not sure I need to supply a rule telling you that not following a rule, which isn't optional, isn't cheating. I'm puzzled you're asking for one.

Erm no. It's really not. It's rolling the dice separately--which is allowed, if you read page 31 of the rulebook:

All of the models in the unit that are firing the selected weapon shoot at the same time, regardless of whether or not all of the dice are rolled together

In any regards, have fun arguing this. It really is just Skyhammer Mark 2. Glad that I will never play with any of you guys.

And the attacks continue.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Kanluwen, does the rule in question say models from the formation or units from the formation?

Happyjew, is Shadowsun part of the formation or not?

Shadowsun does not suddenly cease to be Shadowsun because she is part of a unit.

What does that have to do with anything?

The rule specifies units of Stealth Suits from the formation.
Shadowsun is legally allowed to join a unit of Stealth Suits from the formation.
Whilst attached, the unit is still a unit of Stealth Suits from the formation.

Amusing, again you can't tell the difference between a model and a unit

The rule applies to UNITS of stealth suit battle suits

Shadow sun is a member of the unit "stealth suit battle suit ". This is indisputable

That unit is from t he formation. That is indisputable.

Her weapons gain the rule, as she is a normal member of the unit, and the unit gains the rules

Thanks for playing. Your argument is debunked, again , and I am very glad I will not play you - your house rules are terrible.

It's okay, he had some terrible rules calls on the News & Rumors thread regarding the new Tau releases, too.

SO, since it seems that people can't discuss this in a civil fashion, I think we're done here.