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Greetings.

A thought just popped into my head, and as I thought I knew the answer to this, I am actually not sure. A model has Preferred Enemy, in which case gives them the ability to reroll 1s To Hit. Under the Blast weapon rules, it says that if a model has an ability to reroll a To Hit roll, they may reroll the entire 2d6 scatter. Would Preferred Enemy confer this to shooting blast weapons?

Yes as you have the ability to reroll 1st to hit.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes as you have the ability to reroll 1st to hit.

That's what I assumed, but I wanted to make sure, as it seems really powerful.



Now also, people have said that you get to reroll the Gets Hot roll for a blast weapon if you have Preferred Enemy. Is that true, and if so, where does it state that?

I'd say since Preferred Enemy doesn't grant blanket To Hit rerolls, you could only reroll the blast if it met the conditions of Preferred Enemy. Since you can't roll a 1 to hit on the blast, I'd say no. If you really want to reroll a scatter die of 1 though, be my guest

If you forum search you will see this argument has come up a lot, and the same people will post in here saying the same thing.

PE is a special rule that can grant the ability to re-roll to hit under special circumstances, but itself is not the ability to re-roll to hit.

A model does not have a re-roll to hit form PE, until it rolls a 1.

Before it rolls a 1 on a to hit roll the model does not have the ability to re-roll the to hit roll.

Saying PE is the ability to re-roll to hit, is saying the model can re-roll to hit whenever. It cannot be claimed the model has the ability to re-roll its to hit rolls from PE until it roll a 1, otherwise a model wish BS4 would have the ability to re-roll to hit before rolling the dice(it has not rolled a 1.)

One common house rule I see is as follows. If the person wants to re-roll the blast due to Preferred Enemy, they first roll a D6. On a 1, Preferred Enemy activates and they get to re-roll the scatter. On a 2+, it doesn't. The idea is that this preserves the allowance to re-roll 16.7% of the time... i.e., 1 out of 6.

From a RaW standpoint, things are a little murky. As was mentioned, models with PE aren't entitled to a re-roll unless they've rolled a 1. It's a conditional re-roll. Sometimes they have a re-roll and sometimes they don't. That doesn't translate well into a RaW requirement asking if they have a re-roll. The answer is depends. Depends on what? The result of a die roll you aren't making. Hence, the above house rule. Make the die roll and then decide whether or not you have a re-roll.

blaktoof wrote:
If you forum search you will see this argument has come up a lot, and the same people will post in here saying the same thing.

PE is a special rule that can grant the ability to re-roll to hit under special circumstances, but itself is not the ability to re-roll to hit.

A model does not have a re-roll to hit form PE, until it rolls a 1.

Before it rolls a 1 on a to hit roll the model does not have the ability to re-roll the to hit roll.

Saying PE is the ability to re-roll to hit, is saying the model can re-roll to hit whenever. It cannot be claimed the model has the ability to re-roll its to hit rolls from PE until it roll a 1, otherwise a model wish BS4 would have the ability to re-roll to hit before rolling the dice(it has not rolled a 1.)

By that interpretation, 99% of the reolls would not qualify since they require a miss to reroll.

This is too strict of an interpretation to be a sustainable feature.

It has a limited ability to Reroll, but the Blast rules do not require the Reroll trigger be met in order for its reroll clause to allowed. Only the possession of the ability is required.

Charistoph wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
If you forum search you will see this argument has come up a lot, and the same people will post in here saying the same thing.

PE is a special rule that can grant the ability to re-roll to hit under special circumstances, but itself is not the ability to re-roll to hit.

A model does not have a re-roll to hit form PE, until it rolls a 1.

Before it rolls a 1 on a to hit roll the model does not have the ability to re-roll the to hit roll.

Saying PE is the ability to re-roll to hit, is saying the model can re-roll to hit whenever. It cannot be claimed the model has the ability to re-roll its to hit rolls from PE until it roll a 1, otherwise a model wish BS4 would have the ability to re-roll to hit before rolling the dice(it has not rolled a 1.)

By that interpretation, 99% of the reolls would not qualify since they require a miss to reroll.

This is too strict of an interpretation to be a sustainable feature.

It has a limited ability to Reroll, but the Blast rules do not require the Reroll trigger be met in order for its reroll clause to allowed. Only the possession of the ability is required.

regardless of that, the model does not have the ability to re-roll until it rolls a 1 to hit.

It has a Special Rule, that is in ability, that when a special condition is met gives it the ability to re-roll to hit.

Until you roll a 1 the model does not have the ability to re-roll hits. If it did it could re-roll hits on any die roll when it fires a non blast weapon.

The only RAW result is that the a model cannot re-roll blasts outside of very few things that give the ability to re-roll without any conditions on what you need to roll/do to have the ability to do so. That the rules as written prevent many abilities from giving a re-roll here is not a valid stance, in fact it is silly to say a model can ALWAYS re-roll scatter when it can only re-roll when it rolls a 1 to hit normally.

The most reasonable result is what Kriswall posted.

Remember the rules specifically call out reroll 1st abilities as triggering the "ability to re-roll To Hit" clause. So this is not a debate the rules are clear.

Actually blaktoof, PE does grant a re-roll To Hit. BS6+ requires a 1 to gain the re-roll. And that is covered under Gets Hot.

blaktoof wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
If you forum search you will see this argument has come up a lot, and the same people will post in here saying the same thing.

PE is a special rule that can grant the ability to re-roll to hit under special circumstances, but itself is not the ability to re-roll to hit.

A model does not have a re-roll to hit form PE, until it rolls a 1.

Before it rolls a 1 on a to hit roll the model does not have the ability to re-roll the to hit roll.

Saying PE is the ability to re-roll to hit, is saying the model can re-roll to hit whenever. It cannot be claimed the model has the ability to re-roll its to hit rolls from PE until it roll a 1, otherwise a model wish BS4 would have the ability to re-roll to hit before rolling the dice(it has not rolled a 1.)

By that interpretation, 99% of the reolls would not qualify since they require a miss to reroll.

This is too strict of an interpretation to be a sustainable feature.

It has a limited ability to Reroll, but the Blast rules do not require the Reroll trigger be met in order for its reroll clause to allowed. Only the possession of the ability is required.

regardless of that, the model does not have the ability to re-roll until it rolls a 1 to hit.

It has a Special Rule, that is in ability, that when a special condition is met gives it the ability to re-roll to hit.

Until you roll a 1 the model does not have the ability to re-roll hits. If it did it could re-roll hits on any die roll when it fires a non blast weapon.

The only RAW result is that the a model cannot re-roll blasts outside of very few things that give the ability to re-roll without any conditions on what you need to roll/do to have the ability to do so. That the rules as written prevent many abilities from giving a re-roll here is not a valid stance, in fact it is silly to say a model can ALWAYS re-roll scatter when it can only re-roll when it rolls a 1 to hit normally.

The most reasonable result is what Kriswall posted.

Oh, no, I do think we need to regard that. Ability exists, nothing is required for the Reroll trigger to be achieved.

blaktoof wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
If you forum search you will see this argument has come up a lot, and the same people will post in here saying the same thing.

PE is a special rule that can grant the ability to re-roll to hit under special circumstances, but itself is not the ability to re-roll to hit.

A model does not have a re-roll to hit form PE, until it rolls a 1.

Before it rolls a 1 on a to hit roll the model does not have the ability to re-roll the to hit roll.

Saying PE is the ability to re-roll to hit, is saying the model can re-roll to hit whenever. It cannot be claimed the model has the ability to re-roll its to hit rolls from PE until it roll a 1, otherwise a model wish BS4 would have the ability to re-roll to hit before rolling the dice(it has not rolled a 1.)

By that interpretation, 99% of the reolls would not qualify since they require a miss to reroll.

This is too strict of an interpretation to be a sustainable feature.

It has a limited ability to Reroll, but the Blast rules do not require the Reroll trigger be met in order for its reroll clause to allowed. Only the possession of the ability is required.

regardless of that, the model does not have the ability to re-roll until it rolls a 1 to hit.

It has a Special Rule, that is in ability, that when a special condition is met gives it the ability to re-roll to hit.

Until you roll a 1 the model does not have the ability to re-roll hits. If it did it could re-roll hits on any die roll when it fires a non blast weapon.

The only RAW result is that the a model cannot re-roll blasts outside of very few things that give the ability to re-roll without any conditions on what you need to roll/do to have the ability to do so. That the rules as written prevent many abilities from giving a re-roll here is not a valid stance, in fact it is silly to say a model can ALWAYS re-roll scatter when it can only re-roll when it rolls a 1 to hit normally.

The most reasonable result is what Kriswall posted.

The rules however disagree with you. They say that re-roll 1st is an ability to re-roll To Hit so gets you a re-roll on scatter for blast weapons.

Reroll ability to hit is a tick in the conditions. Yes, if you have the ability to Reroll your to hit, regardless of "how good" a Reroll, you Reroll blast.

That's the actual rule, as covered in for example gets hot which utterly agrees with this. There may be dome dissenting voices, they however lack a rules argument.

Shaquille O'Niel has the ability to hit a free throw shot. I still wouldn't put money on him making it, though.

I realize various posters like to make up rules as they have done in previous threads.

The rules for re-rolling gets hot are not the rules for re-rolling to hit.

That they are differently worded, much like hard to hit for flyers and FMC means they are different.

Do we really have to go through this again?

blaktoof wrote:
I realize various posters like to make up rules as they have done in previous threads.

The rules for re-rolling gets hot are not the rules for re-rolling to hit.

That they are differently worded, much like hard to hit for flyers and FMC means they are different.

Who has made up rules?
I brought up Gets Hot, but that has nothing to do with whether or not the ability to re-roll a subset of To Hit rolls qualifies for re-rolling blasts.

blaktoof wrote:
I realize various posters like to make up rules as they have done in previous threads.

The rules for re-rolling gets hot are not the rules for re-rolling to hit.

That they are differently worded, much like hard to hit for flyers and FMC means they are different.

Yes, you keep making up rules. Bad habit

The Gets Hot rule states that PE gives you the ability to reroll your to hit, as it uses it as an example of where having an ability to reroll to hit triggers a reroll of Gets Hot!

So, youre either claiming the rulebook is wrong - something youve done before, but isnt that convincing an argument - or ignoring this example, and hoping that a hand wave of "its different" will work. It doesnt.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Greetings.

A thought just popped into my head, and as I thought I knew the answer to this, I am actually not sure. A model has Preferred Enemy, in which case gives them the ability to reroll 1s To Hit. Under the Blast weapon rules, it says that if a model has an ability to reroll a To Hit roll, they may reroll the entire 2d6 scatter. Would Preferred Enemy confer this to shooting blast weapons?

As you can see, there's no official consensus. It's unknown whether being able to reroll to-hit rolls of 1 qualifies as being able to reroll to-hit rolls generally for the purposes of determining whether or not a Blast weapon can reroll to-hit rolls. Discuss with your opponent. There's a slight leaning towards Preferred Enemy granting a reroll, but without an official Games Workshop FAQ (which we'll never see), we can only guess at the intent.

 Yarium wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Greetings.

A thought just popped into my head, and as I thought I knew the answer to this, I am actually not sure. A model has Preferred Enemy, in which case gives them the ability to reroll 1s To Hit. Under the Blast weapon rules, it says that if a model has an ability to reroll a To Hit roll, they may reroll the entire 2d6 scatter. Would Preferred Enemy confer this to shooting blast weapons?

As you can see, there's no official consensus. It's unknown whether being able to reroll to-hit rolls of 1 qualifies as being able to reroll to-hit rolls generally for the purposes of determining whether or not a Blast weapon can reroll to-hit rolls. Discuss with your opponent. There's a slight leaning towards Preferred Enemy granting a reroll, but without an official Games Workshop FAQ (which we'll never see), we can only guess at the intent.

Wow, I was actually expecting a bit more clear of a consensus. But fair enough. I usually only do that in my friend group anyway, so it shouldn't be a problem then.

 Yarium wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Greetings.

A thought just popped into my head, and as I thought I knew the answer to this, I am actually not sure. A model has Preferred Enemy, in which case gives them the ability to reroll 1s To Hit. Under the Blast weapon rules, it says that if a model has an ability to reroll a To Hit roll, they may reroll the entire 2d6 scatter. Would Preferred Enemy confer this to shooting blast weapons?

As you can see, there's no official consensus. It's unknown whether being able to reroll to-hit rolls of 1 qualifies as being able to reroll to-hit rolls generally for the purposes of determining whether or not a Blast weapon can reroll to-hit rolls. Discuss with your opponent. There's a slight leaning towards Preferred Enemy granting a reroll, but without an official Games Workshop FAQ (which we'll never see), we can only guess at the intent.

Gets hot begs to differ. It calls out pe as a Reroll provider, this allowing blasts to Reroll. It's on,y when these rules are ignored , and a wilful misunderstanding of "ability"' are employed, that dissent occurs.

 Yarium wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Greetings.

A thought just popped into my head, and as I thought I knew the answer to this, I am actually not sure. A model has Preferred Enemy, in which case gives them the ability to reroll 1s To Hit. Under the Blast weapon rules, it says that if a model has an ability to reroll a To Hit roll, they may reroll the entire 2d6 scatter. Would Preferred Enemy confer this to shooting blast weapons?

As you can see, there's no official consensus. It's unknown whether being able to reroll to-hit rolls of 1 qualifies as being able to reroll to-hit rolls generally for the purposes of determining whether or not a Blast weapon can reroll to-hit rolls. Discuss with your opponent. There's a slight leaning towards Preferred Enemy granting a reroll, but without an official Games Workshop FAQ (which we'll never see), we can only guess at the intent.

Well GW does in fact tell us that re-roll To Hit rolls of a 1 qualifies as a trigger for "ability to re-roll To Hit" in the Gets Hot rules. So it is not like there is a debate on that side of the rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

The Gets Hot rule states that PE gives you the ability to reroll your to hit, as it uses it as an example of where having an ability to reroll to hit triggers a reroll of Gets Hot!

But still under the condition of rolling a 1 to hit. If you don't roll a 1 to hit, you can't reroll the shot. It just means for Get Hot! that since you can reroll to hits of 1, you don't get hot on the first 1 rolled. So if you don't roll a 1 to hit, you can't reroll. It's like Hatred: you can reroll failed hits in combat. If you're not in combat, you can't reroll hits. Therefore, if you can't roll a 1 to hit with Preferred Enemy, you can't reroll your hit.

Read the Gets Hot and blasts rule. That has the identical trigger to blasts and re-rolls and specifically calls out re-roll To Hit rolls of a 1 type abilities as working.

Hey guys, OP has already decided on what to do. This debate is now pointless since a quick google search will show the exact same debate in prior dakkadakka posts.

So is everyone just going to ignore Kriswalls very reasonable compromise? We have a solution that seems to fit with the spirit of Preferred Enemy, but by all means, keep arguing with a brick wall.

 EnTyme wrote:
So is everyone just going to ignore Kriswalls very reasonable compromise? We have a solution that seems to fit with the spirit of Preferred Enemy, but by all means, keep arguing with a brick wall.

Well. That's just another house rule. What is there to discuss?

 KharnsRightHand wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

The Gets Hot rule states that PE gives you the ability to reroll your to hit, as it uses it as an example of where having an ability to reroll to hit triggers a reroll of Gets Hot!

But still under the condition of rolling a 1 to hit. If you don't roll a 1 to hit, you can't reroll the shot. It just means for Get Hot! that since you can reroll to hits of 1, you don't get hot on the first 1 rolled. So if you don't roll a 1 to hit, you can't reroll. It's like Hatred: you can reroll failed hits in combat. If you're not in combat, you can't reroll hits. Therefore, if you can't roll a 1 to hit with Preferred Enemy, you can't reroll your hit.

Gets hot and rerolls disagrees with you. It states pe is a Reroll to,hit therefore it rerolls gets hot. Which is exactly what preferred enemy needs.

Blast rerolls requires the ABILITY to Reroll your to hit. Because blasts NEVER roll to hit, your misreading of the rules bpmeans NO Reroll bar twin linking works. Meaning they wrote the who,e section to no benefit. Or, maybe given your reading of the rule is wrong, the conclusion drawn is also wrong

nosferatu1001 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

The Gets Hot rule states that PE gives you the ability to reroll your to hit, as it uses it as an example of where having an ability to reroll to hit triggers a reroll of Gets Hot!

But still under the condition of rolling a 1 to hit. If you don't roll a 1 to hit, you can't reroll the shot. It just means for Get Hot! that since you can reroll to hits of 1, you don't get hot on the first 1 rolled. So if you don't roll a 1 to hit, you can't reroll. It's like Hatred: you can reroll failed hits in combat. If you're not in combat, you can't reroll hits. Therefore, if you can't roll a 1 to hit with Preferred Enemy, you can't reroll your hit.

Gets hot and rerolls disagrees with you. It states pe is a Reroll to,hit therefore it rerolls gets hot. Which is exactly what preferred enemy needs.

Blast rerolls requires the ABILITY to Reroll your to hit. Because blasts NEVER roll to hit, your misreading of the rules bpmeans NO Reroll bar twin linking works. Meaning they wrote the who,e section to no benefit. Or, maybe given your reading of the rule is wrong, the conclusion drawn is also wrong

I finally got back to my rulebook. The rule for Gets Hot! and weapons that do not roll to hit (ie, blasts) states that it requires a separate die roll to check if it gets hot. Ok, we knew this already. Gets Hot and rerolls states that die may be rerolled if rolls a 1 for Gets Hot. The part that matters is that Gets Hot only occurs on a roll of 1 anyway, which overlaps with Preferred Enemy anyway. It also includes as a reason for a reroll BS6+. By your logic, any blast from a model with BS6 and higher could reroll scatter if it missed. Maybe you agree with that too, I don't since you're subtracting from your scatter to begin with.

Now, the section under Blast for Blasts and Rerolls says *the* ability to reroll, not *any* ability to reroll. Preferred Enemy doesn't grant *the* ability to reroll hits, it gives *an* ability to reroll *certain* hits. So I would agree with your statement that the only rules allowing reroll of scatter dice are Twin-Linked and any other special rule that lets a model reroll all of its shooting hits. Basically what it comes to is a similar case for deep striking Land Raiders: Drop Pods don't have deep strike, they just have a rule that puts them in Deep Strike reserves, so the Deathwing rule putting LR in DS reserves works too. In this case, the Drop Pod is BS6+, and the Land Raider is Preferred Enemy. BS6, by the way, is another rule allowing rerolls of 1. You must necessarily accept both or neither.

Edit: quotes got weird.

blaktoof wrote:
If you forum search you will see this argument has come up a lot, and the same people will post in here saying the same thing.

PE is a special rule that can grant the ability to re-roll to hit under special circumstances, but itself is not the ability to re-roll to hit.

A model does not have a re-roll to hit form PE, until it rolls a 1.

Before it rolls a 1 on a to hit roll the model does not have the ability to re-roll the to hit roll.

Saying PE is the ability to re-roll to hit, is saying the model can re-roll to hit whenever. It cannot be claimed the model has the ability to re-roll its to hit rolls from PE until it roll a 1, otherwise a model wish BS4 would have the ability to re-roll to hit before rolling the dice(it has not rolled a 1.)

Rulebook p.33. Ballistic Skill of 6 or Better wrote:
...it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit...

Rulebook p.109. Battlefield Debris, Ammunition Dump wrote:
...can re-roll To-Hit rolls of 1...

Rulebook p.125. Command Traits, 5 Target Priority wrote:
...re-roll To Hit rolls of 1.

Rulebook p.135. Mysterious Objectives, 4 Targeting Relay wrote:
...re-rolls failed To Hit rolls of 1...

Rulebook p.167. Master-crafted wrote:
...re-roll one failed roll To Hit...

Rulebook p.168. Missile Lock wrote:
...re-rolls failed To Hit rolls...

Rulebook p.169. Preferred Enemy wrote:
...re-rolls failed To Hit and Xx Xxxxx rolls of 1...

Rulebook p.174. Twin-linked wrote:
...it re-rolls all failed To Hit rolls.

Rulebook p.193. Divination, Prescience wrote:
...can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.

Rulebook p.193. Divination, Precognition wrote:
...re-rolls all failed To Hit and Xx Xxxxx rolls. ...

Every shooting related re-roll from the rulebook. Need I go on... I am sure we can all see a pattern here.

Every shooting related re-roll is conditional. Or, as blaktoof put it "Before it rolls a 1 [or failed] on a to hit roll the model does not have the ability to re-roll the to hit roll.".

There is no such thing as a blatant re-roll To Hit anywhere in the rulebook and I do not recall any from any of the Codecii I have access to. Therefor no one can ever re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6 due to the "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" (p.158) (except Twin-linked as it has its own rule for blasts.) and no one can ever re-roll the Gets Hot roll for "Gets Hot and Weapons that do not Roll To Hit." (p.164) even though it gives two examples of conditional re-rolls To Hit.

This line of thinking is obviously, at least to me, wrong. The ability to re-roll To Hit means that you have one of the rules above and the potential/chance to trigger its condition in normal circumstances.