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What factors were responsible for 40k becoming so popular in 3rd ed? Was it the box sets introducing everyone to GW's fantastic new plastics? Was it their innovative shops taking off in the America's market? A combination of things? Lack of competition for anything remotely similar?

What was the key catalysts for that growth? And is it still possible with a potential 8th ed?

A lot of it was rules simplification from 2E. 2E had some cool stuff, but was unwieldy. 3E wasnt perfect, but was much easier to learn and play and scaled better.

Another big part was that GW expanded aggressively and licensed their IP while their competition was dying out or withdrawing for various reasons. The 90's and early 00's were bad times for tabletop gaming as a whole, only two things did well and that was GW and 3E D&D. The old hex wargames all died out, TSR died out, FASA closed up shop, and etc.

GW also did a ton of stuff they no longer do, their website had gobs of fluff, hobby, rules, and conversion stuff, as did WD, which generated huge interest and enthusiasm, as opposed to just being a shopping cart and new product announcer respectively.

I'd say a combination of things. Vaktahi already mentioned a fair few but I'll add that they were the only shop around for sci-fi wargaming and models at the time and the best for fantasy.

The start-up cost was expensive but not as bad as now with $80 main rulebooks and $50 army books. I'm sure that my memory isn't entirely accurate but you didn't need more than a couple of troop boxes and a tank or two to play a game versus the massive amount of models on the table now for an average-sized game.

I started playing 40K in 3rd Edition, as a poor student nonetheless. This was possible because:

1) The rules were simple, certainly by comparison to today's standards. There was a list of comprehensive rules that Codices referred back to, rather than all adding mountains of their own on top of. I'm convinced that the only reason I can keep up with 7th Edition is because I've seen it evolve from 3rd. Jumping straight into it wouldn't be possible for me now.

2) This resulted in smaller, but cheaper, Codices. Each army was a single book, and maybe a single "expansion" book like CWE or BA if you were trying to be fancy, because there were no Allies or other ways to mix factions. That's an up-front cost of less than $25, because we shared the BBB and templates across the group.

3) The focus was on smaller armies and smaller games. Our typical battles back then were around 1000 points, and we each had maybe one centerpiece unit like a Land Raider or a Carnifex. Titans, Baneblades, Exocrines, etc. were creatures of myth. Kill Team and Combat Patrol are still great ways to enter the hobby, but the current trend pushes players towards larger armies and more expensive models.

Now, I can't very well complain about 7th Edition. My primary army is a Knight Household, and I'm slowly collecting Titans simply because I can. However, I also now consider myself a mature veteran. I see a lot of new players that are really struggling under the weight of rules and models requirements, and I really feel for them.

The 90's won't be coming back so I doubt that anyone can replicate what happened.

I got in at the tail end of 2nd and did most of my gaming through 3rd. As others have mentioned, back then a high school kid with a part time job could play the game, the rules were simplified, and at least in my area there were a plethora of shops that opened with available table space.

They streamlined the rules and rhino rush was king.

I got in at the tail end of 3rd edition but for me it was a combination of DoW-playing friends and Black Gobbo that got me really hooked. Especially Black Gobbo as, at the time, I was 14 with a modest allowance, so I couldn't exactly buy much at the time (it took me 6 months to save up for a battleforce). It helped that GW was considered on the cutting edge of online material at the time (this was in the era where everyone had a crappy website made from that neo-something instead of blogs and whatnot. I don't think Facebook was even a thing back then).

They also really aggressively advertised their stuff. GW stores had a very friendly atmosphere, where monthly or even weekly events were a thing (and often gave existing players a bonus if they could wrangle in one of their friends for the event, which usually were free). They also had the capital to put their shops in high-end malls and held GamesDay, basically their own ComicCon, and Battle Bunkers, which drew in people like crazy. They also gave out free painting lessons, allowed those (like me) with no money or models to play small games with their demo models, and had a lot of other bonuses, like vouchers that gave you free stuff if you bought specific things for your army.

The biggest part I think though was the hobby encouragement. You couldn't go two steps anywhere with GW without someone telling you about the hobby. Their website was peppered with conversion articles, painting articles, storywriting, or terrain building. Codexes were chocked full of studio examples. The managers and salesmen always displayed their own models and talked about them, and each store was like a home away from home. No matter who you were, as long as you weren't a jerk, there was always a seat at the table for you.

However later on I learned that this was apparently bleeding money for them, or at least they thought that it wasn't enough in terms of profit. Especially with the disaster that was the Medusa V Campaign. That was when GW pulled the brakes on the gravy train and it all went downhill from there.

Nowadays I get glares from the lone staff member in the obscure GW shop if I don't look like I'm gonna purchase anything, and even if I do I get a disappointed look from them if I choose anything less than 50 bucks (which, sadly, is also a very small selection if you don't go for just clampacks). For me it's like watching a famous Hollywood star being reduced to birthday party appearances.

A lot on top of that, times change.

This feels like asking what rock/grunge/metal bands in the 90's and 00's did right and how we can replicate that nowadays.

 Vaktathi wrote:
A lot of it was rules simplification from 2E. 2E had some cool stuff, but was unwieldy. 3E wasnt perfect, but was much easier to learn and play and scaled better.

Another big part was that GW expanded aggressively and licensed their IP while their competition was dying out or withdrawing for various reasons. The 90's and early 00's were bad times for tabletop gaming as a whole, only two things did well and that was GW and 3E D&D. The old hex wargames all died out, TSR died out, FASA closed up shop, and etc.

GW also did a ton of stuff they no longer do, their website had gobs of fluff, hobby, rules, and conversion stuff, as did WD, which generated huge interest and enthusiasm, as opposed to just being a shopping cart and new product announcer respectively.

essentially games workshop was enthusiastic about its products and had faith in their IP as opposed to absolute paranoia and no faith at all. they now whore their IP out for all its worth and its totally devoid of heart and soul. games workshop if they want to capture lightning in a jar would need to find itself again not just pretend they do and try and encourage us by saying "its going to be great" knowing full well it wont

I fully believe if they embraced the same ideals from that time, they can cause a huge boom of popularity. AoS was suppose to have done this, but a combination of poor rule-writing, zero hobby content, ridiculously expensive models (to the point that some local FLGSs won't even stock them because they can't afford it) and lack of communication completely killed it. However, GW is too deep in the hole now. They would have to completely restructure their company policy to do this, rehire a whole department to run an online hobby blog, and probably pay more than peanuts to their writers to proofread and do FAQs and Erratas. Jokes aside, for most companies such a change would be unheard of to do so overnight, especially if they already proved to be sub-optimal at making money (although it is very debatable whether or not they made MORE money than GW's current policy has).

Out of interest, what's your source for 40k being so popular during 3rd?

Most of us would claim that source as "being there".

 Vaktathi wrote:
A lot of it was rules simplification from 2E. 2E had some cool stuff, but was unwieldy. 3E wasnt perfect, but was much easier to learn and play and scaled better.

Another big part was that GW expanded aggressively and licensed their IP while their competition was dying out or withdrawing for various reasons. The 90's and early 00's were bad times for tabletop gaming as a whole, only two things did well and that was GW and 3E D&D. The old hex wargames all died out, TSR died out, FASA closed up shop, and etc.

GW also did a ton of stuff they no longer do, their website had gobs of fluff, hobby, rules, and conversion stuff, as did WD, which generated huge interest and enthusiasm, as opposed to just being a shopping cart and new product announcer respectively.

It's interesting that you mention this. I'm probably biased because i was a full time gamer kid during this era, but it was kind of the heyday of D&D3.5, Magic the gathering,vampire the masquerade, and GW games. The LGS always had something going on and if you came to play one game, you eventually got pulled into the others. Necromunda was our gateway game. We played the crap out of that game, and space hulk. Then we got into 40k and fantasy (RIP).

Lets give a anser op might want to hear.

-It was a different time, Rock music, fantasy and Sifi was booming. Shows like xena the warrior princes, star trek and all sorts of sifi / fantasy shows where popular tv shows.
- Less competitors -> Video games and other games where not as big and the internet wasn't really there.
-Other miniature games where really obscure.
-No chinese recasters. They might have been there but no one would know how to contact them.
-40k and fantasy where closer linked and warhammer fantasy was HUGE. Seriously you could just walk into a store and play a game at any Friday or Saturday. This feeded 40k.
-Cheaper models even if you corrected it for inflation kids could actually afford models from their allowance.
-Better support -> lots of hobby articles including but not limited to plasticard templates for vehicles in the white dwarf, direct bits sales,terran articles and the GW events.
-Slower releases
-The game and miniatures changed a lot in the years before that shifting from semi RPG to miniature wargaming.

I might say better rules, but not sure about that at all. There were a lot of nasty combo's that might be even more game breaking then some of the stuff of today. The big difference might be that there was no internet to provide the net lists and spread the game breaking shenanigans. Everyone had to invent them or them selves resulting in more relaxed local meta's.



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If you want to know the difference just look for an white dwarf of that age and the white dwarf a few years before that. You will be shocked at the progress they made then, and the difference between then and now/

3rd edition 40k IMO was an awesome time to be in the hobby. The game was a lot easier to get into and play then. The rulebook by itself was $50, but for $75 you got the same full sized rulebook, plus the 2 starter forces. A standard codex was $15 and a supplement codex was another $10 if you wanted it. For around $250-300 you pretty much had the rules and all the models you would ever need.

GW also was very active with the gaming community. They sponsored Rogue Trader tournaments, their own Grand Tournaments, multiple Games Days in various locations, and even had online campaigns with specific codex books.

During those years I ate, slept, drank, and bathed in 40k. I worked at a game store and ran/promoted a Wednesday night 40k league. (As I understand, it's still going today.) I played 40k 3-4 nights a week. My friends from the Wed night league would play at my house on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday nights. When we weren't playing, we were painting models, discussing conversions, and coming up with scenarios. Again, for me it was an awesome time in the hobby.

Is it repeatable, I would say no.

The market and the world has changed too much. But I would like them a lot more if they stoppped selling their brand as a premium product and started to supporting the community again.

 oldzoggy wrote:
A lot on top of that, times change.

This feels like asking what rock/grunge/metal bands in the 90's and 00's did right and how we can replicate that nowadays.

Whoa, whoa, whoa...I would like an answer to this question. I would also like to hear your plan to make this happen. Thank you.

I think GW can do a lot that would help it bring the game back to the growth of earlier times, although I agree it would be difficult to approach that same level of explosive growth around 3rd-5th.

Firstly, the barrier to enter/maintain simply in the rules has gotten ridiculously expensive, and deters new players like nobody's business. $85 rulebooks, $50 codexes, and a barrage of new books with sources all over the place, resulting in a roughly 2-year cycle before all previous rule investments have to be replaced, is simply not sustainable- especially in the age we are in now, where nearly all tabletop games have gone to having free rules (of some sort). GW's even further behind the eight ball on this, because their rule cycling serves no purpose other than attempting to force customers to feel like they need to keep up. A that's become one of GW's biggest albatrosses around their neck- a bad level of value for investment to the general consumer.

It does appear that they're working on this at least on the models side of things with the new starters, but the rules paradigm for 40k is going to have to change or it won't matter how many starters they create. I am at least hopeful that the positive signs we've seen with the company means someone is finally trying to answer "why is the company losing profit on a year-by-year basis?" with more than "they buy what we make! let's just charge more!!". I think GW *can* continue to mix up the rules in ways that just alter the game rather than improve it (the way Blizzard does with WoW), but they'll have to realize that it won't work long-term as a vehicle for profit.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Most of us would claim that source as "being there".

Funnily enough what I remember most of that era is the unreliability of anecdotal evidence: the web was full of people decrying GW as moronic for losing money on Lord of the Rings which nobody ever played anywhere, at the same time as GW 'mysteriously' managed to find a lot of money for a very expensive in-house plastics department which they claimed came from the profits from Lord of the Rings..

In fact, the period between the release of 3rd edition (1998) and Lord of the Rings (2001, though the article erroneously says 2002) was the slowest period of growth GW has ever had:
http://www.iii.co.uk/news-opinion/richard-beddard/games-workshop%E2%80%99s-revenue-problem (scroll down for revenue chart)
Whilst GW's 'exponential growth' period would be 2nd edition, during which its revenue quadrupled.

 Gashrog wrote:

In fact, the period between the release of 3rd edition (1998) and Lord of the Rings (2001, though the article erroneously says 2002) was the slowest period of growth GW has ever had:
http://www.iii.co.uk/news-opinion/richard-beddard/games-workshop%E2%80%99s-revenue-problem (scroll down for revenue chart)
Whilst GW's 'exponential growth' period would be 2nd edition, during which its revenue quadrupled.

.
You appear to be conflating the growth of 40K and the growth of GW... They're not necessarily directly linked.

GW's revenue reporting doesn't tell you how many people are playing their games, just how much money GW are making from it.


3rd edition saw a fairly wide expansion of GW's player base. Although it may not have been as big an expansion as people remember... because that same time period also saw the opening up of the internet to 'regular' people, allowing gamers to connect with other gamers around the world. While this allowed for an even greater spread of hobby discussion, it also possibly exagerates how much bigger everything became. Some of it was genuine expansion, some of it was doubtless just gamers becoming aware of other gaming groups.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Lets give a anser op might want to hear.

-It was a different time, Rock music, fantasy and Sifi was booming. Shows like xena the warrior princes, star trek and all sorts of sifi / fantasy shows where popular tv shows.

What, like GoT, TWD, Daredevil, Jessica Jones etc, all the Marvel movies, LotR, the Star Trek and Star Wars franchises getting high profile and commercially successful reboots, the X Files returning, heck, even BBT is contributing to the mainstreaming of geek culture?

Nope, sorry, but popular culture is more accepting of this stuff now than it was back in the 90s (and I was there, for the record.)

- Less competitors -> Video games and other games where not as big and the internet wasn't really there.
-Other miniature games where really obscure.

Not especially true. Video games were not as mainstream, but I'd say they were just as popular amongst wargamers, who are going to be more inclined towards those sorts of interests in general, and there were plenty of other games, most never gained the traction some of the more established modern games have, but there was always something new to try, plus CCGs were exploding and RPGs felt a lot more widespread too, but that was never really my interest.

-No chinese recasters. They might have been there but no one would know how to contact them.

The business they're taking is tiny now, it was minute then, it's not a consideration. Besides, recasters or no, that doesn't explain apparently falling player numbers, if anything, widespread recasts would encourage more and more varied armies as players could do things that GW/FW prices make impossible for people with limited budgets.

-40k and fantasy where closer linked and warhammer fantasy was HUGE. Seriously you could just walk into a store and play a game at any Friday or Saturday. This feeded 40k.

Citation needed, IME Fantasy has always been the red headed step child to 40K, without figures this is pure speculation, and I don't think it's speculation that's particularly well supported by anecdotal evidence.

-Cheaper models even if you corrected it for inflation kids could actually afford models from their allowance.

This is partially true, the ceiling has gone higher and the lack of cheap blisters could well be a thing, but the Start Collecting bundles are awesome value, and corrected for inflation I doubt they're more expensive than equivalent 90s purchases, quite possibly cheaper.

-Better support -> lots of hobby articles including but not limited to plasticard templates for vehicles in the white dwarf, direct bits sales,terran articles and the GW events.

Undoubtedly a good thing, but it all predates 3rd 40K so can't be considered to have notably contributed to any sort of upsurge, and it's all eminently repeatable.

-Slower releases

Admittedly they've possibly gone a tad too far the other way now, but slow releases were a constant source of frustration for many, and I can't see it being cited as a good thing or a contributing factor.

-The game and miniatures changed a lot in the years before that shifting from semi RPG to miniature wargaming.

That's pretty self evident, and was always inevitable with changing tech and different creative influences and artists.

I might say better rules, but not sure about that at all. There were a lot of nasty combo's that might be even more game breaking then some of the stuff of today. The big difference might be that there was no internet to provide the net lists and spread the game breaking shenanigans. Everyone had to invent them or them selves resulting in more relaxed local meta's.

No, I wouldn't say better rules. I have immense fondness for 2nd, but I played it in a bubble, every edition has had its issues, and as tech has developed allowing better communication among players, those flaws have been magnified.

 Azreal13 wrote:

-40k and fantasy where closer linked and warhammer fantasy was HUGE. Seriously you could just walk into a store and play a game at any Friday or Saturday. This feeded 40k.

Citation needed, IME Fantasy has always been the red headed step child to 40K, without figures this is pure speculation, and I don't think it's speculation that's particularly well supported by anecdotal evidence.

Very much a regional thing. WHFB was never as big in the US. Through the 90's, though, it was certainly at least as, if not more, popular as 40K in Oz and the UK (and I believe through Europe, but might be wrong there).

The two games weren't 'closely linked' by that point, though. 2nd ed 40K and 4th(?) Ed WHFB had used practically the same ruleset, but the next edition of each game moved them off in fairly significantly different directions.

Yeah, pretty much what I figured. Certainly I recall most 40K players had a Fantasy army too, but when it came to gaming in the local FLGS, it was maybe 3:1 in favour of 40K?

But, like you say, almost certainly highly regional.

 Azreal13 wrote:

-Better support -> lots of hobby articles including but not limited to plasticard templates for vehicles in the white dwarf, direct bits sales,terran articles and the GW events.

Undoubtedly a good thing, but it all predates 3rd 40K so can't be considered to have notably contributed to any sort of upsurge, and it's all eminently repeatable.

I would argue that the reason the hobby aspect exploded was because it was in 3rd edition that the internet boomed, which connected otherwise isolated pockets of hobbyists. Moreover, the most important thing is that Black Gobbo was free which made it accessible to a lot of people.

The hobby aspect didn't explode circa 3rd, that's what I'm saying, "permission to photocopy for personal use" was a feature of WD from RT days.

I remember 2nd edition and didn't come back till mid 5th edition and I can tell you that a lot of what people talk about is true. 2nd edition had different rule sets for each piece of equipment let alone each faction. There was a STEEP learning curve to 40k in 2nd edition, it also had a psychic phase (like our newest edition) and much like our newest edition it was bloated and hard to follow at points.

What people have told me, and what research has shown me is that 3rd edition was what a lot of people are asking for now. A reboot. It was't a hard core shake the foundations of the world reboot, but it pulled all the complicated stuff out and boiled it back down to the basics. Problem is people complained about the pase of things getting updated. It took years to get everything updated and by that time, new editions began to roll out.

So from that time until 6th edition (after I'd come back), everyone complained that it took too long to get new updates for their book. Then the flood gate opened and GW began to feed us with the firehose. So the new complaint is that its too fast, and now we're begging for another reboot.

Moral of the story be wairy of what you ask for, sometimes the devil is listening.

Less competitors -> Video games and other games where not as big and the internet wasn't really there.

Imho that's one of the major reasons. Back then, the GW lineup was pretty much the only thing that was widely known and available, with D&D, TDE and Magic being the only alternatives. Nowadays, there is a plethora of high-quality and affordable tabletop games out there. Even if 40ks 8th Edition would be the mother of all codices, it would never be the same as it used to be in the '90s/early 2000s.

In the end it can probably be compared to television. Back in the 50's and 60's we had TV series and game shows that everybody watched and which had ratings above 80%. Today, even highly popular, high-quality TV-series, while reaching a larger overall audience, will never achieve those kinds of ratings again. There are simply too many alternatives and competitors around and available.

Wut?

I mean... wut?

The 90s were a *heyday* for pen-and-paper RPGs! Yes, you had D&D, of course, but, just off the top of my head, you also had Shadowrun, Earthdawn, Warhammer Fantasy RP, Cyberpunk: 2020, BESM, TMNT, Star Wars, Battletech, Vampire: The Masquerade and its half-dozen sister games (which were all *insanely* popular), The End, Kult, Paranoia!, and Rifts... and these are just the major RPG titles I can remember. There's a dozen or so other minor prints that I could rattle off.

Video games completely exploded in the late 1990s. PlayStation One was launched in 1995 and by the end of 1999 had sold over 72 million units. Sales then declined but PS2 was booming.