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I'm curious to know who would win in CC. I've heard that Kharn is nails, but Mephiston isn't exactly a fluffy white bunny rabbit.

As a Blood Angels player I've seen Mephiston deal out the pain on a regular basis. To top it off I personally field him with 15 Death Company inside a Land Raider Crusader.

But here, I'm only interested in a 1 vs. 1 scenario. Who would win and why?

For sake of argument, lets say they both have opportunities to be the attacker and the defender.

Well is Mephiston doesnt Kill, Khan will Hit and Run and then get to charge again.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Well is Mephiston doesnt Kill, Khan will Hit and Run and then get to charge again.

Kharn the Betrayer, not Khan on a bike. I think so anyway

X

Mephiston Stats:

Pts: 175

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
6 5 5 5 3 5 4 10 2+

If taken as part of a Baal Strike Force, Mephiston get's +1 Initiative on the charge, making it 6, and +1 Strength.

So if charging, Mephiston would have, I believe, initiative 6, strength 6, 6 attacks (if his force sword also counts as CC weapon). His Force sword, when generated, has strength 10.

He could also try Transfixing glare. I know the chances of rolling high enough are rare, but if successful Mephiston will hit on 2+, regardless.

As I'm not clear on Kharn's rules I don't know who would fare better. I've heard Khorne is immune to Force weapons, or can save against them on a 2+.

Kharn is hitting on 2's and wounding on 2's but only has a 3+/5++ and 3 wounds.

I'm not familiar with mephiston, but at the given stats, he's hitting on 4's and wounding on 3's when not on the charge. I assume he has an iron halo for a 4++ though, so that should just let him live to round 2 where they both kill each other. If he doesn't have a 4++, then he's dead in the first round.

Depending on what powers mephiston rolls, he'd certainly be able to do better however, but in a straight up fight, probably mutual annihilation with the advantage going to whomever gets the charge.

 Drasius wrote:
Kharn is hitting on 2's and wounding on 2's but only has a 3+/5++ and 3 wounds.

I'm not familiar with mephiston, but at the given stats, he's hitting on 4's and wounding on 3's when not on the charge. I assume he has an iron halo for a 4++ though, so that should just let him live to round 2 where they both kill each other. If he doesn't have a 4++, then he's dead in the first round.

Depending on what powers mephiston rolls, he'd certainly be able to do better however, but in a straight up fight, probably mutual annihilation with the advantage going to whomever gets the charge.

Thanks for jumping in.

That's pretty impressive. Mephiston has a standard 2+ save, but no Iron Halo. Though I suppose he could use his powers to add an invul save or to make himself invisible or both, depending on the discipline he uses and the warp charge required.

What's the deal with force weapons when fighting against Kharn?

Kharn is immune to instant death from force weapons

The randomness of psykic powers and the low chance of transfixing gaze, makes it a very difficult to mathhammer out for sure, possibly impossible to do...if not way more work then I am willing to put into it.

Mephiston has no Invul...So Kharn on average rolls will nearly kill mephiston without any bonuses(rage/furious charge/bonus charge attacks/hatred) in one round of even combat rolling to hit on 2s and wounding on 3s he deals 2.75 wounds that mephiston cannot save.

Mephiston in the same round of combat with no powers up no transfixing gaze on average rolls does .54 unsaved wounds.

With sanguine sword active He still only deals .68 unsaved wounds. But it would be an instant death wound.

As for other powers only blessings would really help since Kharn denies on a 2+.

I would put my money on Kharn in a 1v1...but being a lvl 3 psyker Mephiston has much higher utility to his force.

Mephy has no invuln, no fnp and Kharn goes first, hits on 2s, with an Ap2 weapon. I've fought this fight many times and Mephy won twice. Both times it was the dice and force, (surprisingly not quickening) that won him the day.

Thanks for the feedback, folks.

Was simply curious.

if I ever encounter Kharn on the battlefield I'll be sure to hammer him with fire before charging in.

It would certainly make for an interesting round of CC, especially if Mephy takes Death Company and Kharn takes Bezerkers.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Mephy has no invuln, no fnp and Kharn goes first, hits on 2s, with an Ap2 weapon. I've fought this fight many times and Mephy won twice. Both times it was the dice and force, (surprisingly not quickening) that won him the day.

He's immune to Force though.

NOW, if you bumped his sword to S10, that's a different story.

Force bumps his sword to str 10.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Mephy has no invuln, no fnp and Kharn goes first, hits on 2s, with an Ap2 weapon. I've fought this fight many times and Mephy won twice. Both times it was the dice and force, (surprisingly not quickening) that won him the day.

He's immune to Force though.

NOW, if you bumped his sword to S10, that's a different story.

The games were many moons ago before I shelved the BA dex. I remember he got instagibbed, so it very well could been the S10 sword.

Force does not make Mephy's sword S10. His unique psychic power, sanguine sword, does. S10 often makes force redundant and lets him pound IKs to dust. Too bad he's on foot.

 Flugel Meister wrote:
Thanks for the feedback, folks.

Was simply curious.

if I ever encounter Kharn on the battlefield I'll be sure to hammer him with fire before charging in.

It would certainly make for an interesting round of CC, especially if Mephy takes Death Company and Kharn takes Bezerkers.

The first round hell yea. The subsequent ones, not so much because the zerkers have counter attack and Mephy will likely eiher be dead or missing a few limbs.

Khârn CANNOT suffer instant death from a force weapon. Doubling out doesn't matter.

Huh. At the risk of being devil's advocate - kharn's rule says, quote: "If Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict instant death on him". Note it doesn't say a weapon with force activated, it just says "a force weapon".

So, even if meph buffs himself to str 10, and doesn't activate force, it is still a force weapon. Can it ID kharn? I'm leaning toward no, silly as it seems. Same for, say, a dreadknight weapon.

Also, I've always been curious - how does kharn's deny the witch work in 7th? Can you deny any power, regardless of target or type, in a 2+? Or is it only powers against him and his unit?

I realize these are the sort of problems you run into when your codex is as old as CSM, but I am curious how it's played nowadays.

It's kind of funny against Mephiston. Force sword only does a single wound. His plasma pistol splats Khârn just fine.

I had always assumed when Force was activated. So when a Dreadknight had Force activated, it won't kill Kharn, but when you don't, that Sword just kinda kills him.

So how it would've went down in my area is that the S10 alone would kill Kharn, but if Force or both powers were activated, Kharn lives.

Maybe someone can ask that for their FAQ question!

StarHunter25 wrote:
It's kind of funny against Mephiston. Force sword only does a single wound. His plasma pistol splats Khârn just fine.

Is his plasma pistol str 8?

Plan b then. Shoot kharn with bolters. Mephy is best vs vehicles and elite infantry like plague marines anyway.

Doesn't sanguine sword make all his attacks str10? Or is our just with his sword? No Idea, just assumed it is a boost to his stats not just the Force Sword.

What does the power actually say?

StarHunter25 wrote:
Doesn't sanguine sword make all his attacks str10? Or is our just with his sword? No Idea, just assumed it is a boost to his stats not just the Force Sword.

What other attacks can he make in cc? I have the book in front of me and it says it only effects his sword. When I instakilled Kharn we figured as long as force wasn't activated he would have been doubled out if he flubbed his invuln. Guess we were wrong.

Edit: I don't understand how people can still claim CSM as the bottom of the barrel when Kharn makes a complete joke out of one of the Imperiums most legendary characters. The kicker being they are the same point cost. For some reason people call zerkers terrible and make DC something special, but zerkers will crush DC in a head to head. Especially if its a prolonged fight or the DC doesn't get to charge.

NM, already discussed...

Dantes_Baals wrote:

StarHunter25 wrote:
Doesn't sanguine sword make all his attacks str10? Or is our just with his sword? No Idea, just assumed it is a boost to his stats not just the Force Sword.

What other attacks can he make in cc? I have the book in front of me and it says it only effects his sword. When I instakilled Kharn we figured as long as force wasn't activated he would have been doubled out if he flubbed his invuln. Guess we were wrong.

Edit: I don't understand how people can still claim CSM as the bottom of the barrel when Kharn makes a complete joke out of one of the Imperiums most legendary characters. The kicker being they are the same point cost. For some reason people call zerkers terrible and make DC something special, but zerkers will crush DC in a head to head. Especially if its a prolonged fight or the DC doesn't get to charge.

Because Kharn and his berserkers die to boltguns. And they all die to a single IA shot. And they are on foot. So that means they can't even stay clear of IKs or WKs. Who step on them like little bitches. That's why they are at or near the bottom. Mephy is now a support IC with a niche at wrecking vehicles. He's not there to kill other ICs unless they suck.

Kharn is a tiny lego brick of pain to an IK. 0/10 would not stand on again.

Death Company ARE absolutely better than Berserker Marines. They get Jump Packs and hidden Power Fists. All you need after that is the Baal Strike Force and they're hitting before the Berserker Marines.

Martel732 wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

StarHunter25 wrote:
Doesn't sanguine sword make all his attacks str10? Or is our just with his sword? No Idea, just assumed it is a boost to his stats not just the Force Sword.

What other attacks can he make in cc? I have the book in front of me and it says it only effects his sword. When I instakilled Kharn we figured as long as force wasn't activated he would have been doubled out if he flubbed his invuln. Guess we were wrong.

Edit: I don't understand how people can still claim CSM as the bottom of the barrel when Kharn makes a complete joke out of one of the Imperiums most legendary characters. The kicker being they are the same point cost. For some reason people call zerkers terrible and make DC something special, but zerkers will crush DC in a head to head. Especially if its a prolonged fight or the DC doesn't get to charge.

Because Kharn and his berserkers die to boltguns. And they all die to a single IA shot. And they are on foot. So that means they can't even stay clear of IKs or WKs. Who step on them like little bitches. That's why they are at or near the bottom. Mephy is now a support IC with a niche at wrecking vehicles. He's not there to kill other ICs unless they suck.

DC die to bolt guns and stomps just the same. And even with their JPs they aren't outrunning the IKs battlecannon or a riptides IA either. If kharn and his zerkers are terrible because they can't tale down a scout titan in cc I guesss that makes just about every infantry unit in the game terrible. I guess what I don't understand is why whilst Kharn and berzerkers have the same role (blending infantry) as DC, everybody tries to glorify DC even though lharn and the berserkers do it much,much better. And dying to small arms fire and lack of mobility cam be solved with a transport.