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Let's speak about the multiples retcons of 40k's background.
Can we spot them all ?
Do you like them ?
Or not ?

Personnally, the biggest retcon I remember is the oldcron/newcron thing. They shouldn't have done this, for me.
They could have changed some Necron's background without making them a different army.

I don't like the "Perpetual" thing.

Just a question: I remember that the Ultramarines did not fight during the Heresy, Horus send them far, far, away, to avoid them.
And this was why they were so numerous and glorious: while the other legions sustained heavy loses, the UM had little to no casuality, and saved the Imperium during the dark times just after the Heresy.
Did I invent this or was this a thing, before the made Calth, etc... ?

Personnally, the biggest retcon I remember is the oldcron/newcron thing. They shouldn't have done this, for me.
They could have changed some Necron's background without making them a different army.

I agree with this also, I really liked the old cons.


Edit: for spelling

Retcon I'm not keen on: Marines are crusading space knights (pretty much led me to ignore marine fluff from 2nd ed onwards and substitute my own).

Much preferred the brainwiped and repurposed psychopathic criminal scum aspect.

So the SC2 marine then? :p

I love newcrons and hate the Black Templars are okay with psykers change.

Retcons I like
Newcrons, Gave them more feeling IMO, before they where kinda bland. The new new crons feel like a legitimate threat, an army that is still unfeeling towards the for while still retaining some personality
Ones I dont like.
Tau using Giant suits, I really really dont like it.

Strongly dislike the constant retconning of Ollanius Pius. He was a guardsman. A normal man. That was the whole point of the story. That was what gave it emotional depth. Making him a custodes, a perpetual, or any of the other supermen that the Horus Heresy is already overloaded with completely ruins the impact and importance of the story.

I'm not super keen on newcrons or the existence of perpetuals either, but they're not the worst things. In rare instances they're used well.

A retcon that I liked that has stuck- Abaddon actually achieving things during his 12 previous crusades, and him playing the long game. The people who dislike this, I think dislike it just because it's a retcon, and because they love the "armless failure" meme. But really Abaddon sucking at his job and still being the big guy in charge undermines Chaos as an entire faction, and this works much better from a narrative point of view.

A sweet fluff idea that I hated getting retconned out was in one of the old BL Dark Angels novels. At the end of the novel it revealed that I loved this twist. It was a genuinely good one for people immersed in 40k lore and this twist explains EVERYTHING that doesn't make sense about the Dark Angels. Tons of other chapters have had members and successor chapters turn to Chaos. Why is it such a big deal for the Dark Angels? Why the secrecy? Why the obsession? What's so special about this one particular batch of traitors? It all made sense with this. Only now it's been nixed, it was just a traitor lying, and Dark Angels don't make sense again. So I guess it was a retcon that I loved followed by a re-retcon that I hated.

Oh, and Chaos won the 13th Black Crusade. Hasn't had a clear retcon, but that's canon that is, and I won't accept anything else.

 Crazyterran wrote:
So the SC2 marine then? :p

The what now?

 chromedog wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
So the SC2 marine then? :p

The what now?

Marines in Star Craft are basicly the old school 2nd edition Space Marines...

and I'm sure Blizzard is well aware of that.

I hate how Black Templars were changed to basically male version of Sisters of Battle. They were secular [Imperial Truth], psyker hating [and last followers of Nikaea edict] and now they fall to knees when they see an astropath and would kiss an Eccesliarch's arse.

 Shadow Walker wrote:
I hate how Black Templars were changed to basically male version of Sisters of Battle. They were secular [Imperial Truth], psyker hating [and last followers of Nikaea edict] and now they fall to knees when they see an astropath and would kiss an Eccesliarch's arse.

except they've ALWAYS used astropaths. the "change" to the black templars is just logicly noting that clearly to function, they need to work with astropaths, and navigators.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
I hate how Black Templars were changed to basically male version of Sisters of Battle. They were secular [Imperial Truth], psyker hating [and last followers of Nikaea edict] and now they fall to knees when they see an astropath and would kiss an Eccesliarch's arse.

except they've ALWAYS used astropaths. the "change" to the black templars is just logicly noting that clearly to function, they need to work with astropaths, and navigators.

Except that I NEVER said about them not using astropaths [how could they communicate if they were not using them?]. I wrote about their attitude towards psykers that changed. Now they almost worship any sanctioned psyker as he was an element of Emperor's divine will.

Retcons I dislike:

Originally (1st edition) the Legion of the Damned were outright stated to be the warp-plague riddled survivors of the Fire Hawks, specifically from the cruiser Absolute, the only Fire Hawk vessel not to be obliterated in the warp. Imbued with power by the plague that was slowly killing them and driving them mad they decided to sell their lives in the name of the Emperor. I much prefer this over the firey-ghost thing, as it made them the antithises of the Death Guard, who in the same circumstances chose to sell their souls instead.

Speaking of the Death Guard, I'm still irked by Garro stealing the Eisenstein. Back in 1st edition each legion's contingent seized a different vessel, the rest caused a diversion whilst Varren and his World Eaters escaped with the Eisenstein. I don't mind the change per se, but the fact it happened in the Death Guard IA article just makes it sound like fanboyism.

I also prefer the original version of the Battle of Macragge wherein it was the culmination of a 60 year campaign by three Space Marine Chapters to corral the hive fleet into the Macragge System (a "Fortress System") where it could be destroyed by it's system defenses, this really rammed home how monolithic as well as slow and ponderous the Tyranids were, rather than the Star Trekish villain of the week 'Oh hey the new alien race just jumped into our home system *BISHBASHBOSH* The End.' that it became.

On a similar note, back in 1st edition there were 100 Titan Legions (actually it was Military Orders, RT fluff had the few remaining Titan Legions re-organised into Military Orders after the Heresy, as most Titan Legions had sided with Horus.) stationed to guard the Eye of Terror. Codex: Eye of Terror had it slashed to the point where *after* being reinforced there were only about 5 and a half legions.. Titan Legions/Orders were always described as rare, the former number highlighted the monolithic nature of the Imperium, the latter just kind of implies the opposite.

I'm not sure whether it constitutes an intentional retcon, or if it's people blowing what was said out of all proportion, but I dislike the school of thought that holds that MkV power armour doesn't exist. GW was producing specific miniatures for it's original design for 20+ years before Black Library intimated there was no such thing. Black Library can get stuffed on that one.
Space Marines not worshipping the Emperor. It used to be that they didn't worship him 'in accordance with the Imperial Creed' ~ as in they had their own particular spin on their Emperor worship, but they did still worship him, how could they not when almost the entire Imperium (from which they recruit) does?

Minor irk:
Although I do like the blue, Night Lords were briefly black. Y'know, the colour of DARK SCARY NIGHT. I kinda feel this is more fitting than late evening/romantic moonlit stroll night..

Retcons I like:
(re)upping the Horus Heresy legion sizes, it allowed them to make the Heresy EPIC again, hell they've even brought back Treab's World! (3,000 Salamanders were wiped out there in a quarter page side-story in Space Marine 1st edition, you can't squeeze in little things like that when the legion only had 7,000 marines).

Er, I know there's a few more I like, but none of them spring to mind right now

I like the part when GW retconned CSM from being able to beat loyalist marines to their current state. Oh wait.

Really though, the BT retcon is silly and unnecessary. They very obviously only put it in so that the BT would ook more codex-compliant. And more in line with their spiritual-fething-lieges.

The (IMO) awful series of "toy" Space marine units and vehicles as well as the over flavouring of certain Chapters

So the Blood Angels went from being a Pretty much Codex Chapter to blood Marines firing blood guns with Blood Dreadnought firing blood missiles and conjuring blood lances - yuck
Space Wolves are worse

I liked the old Dark Angels - building on their liberation of a planet from genestelers, the native american theme, the Deathwing - now - again terrible "flavour" units.

The new flyers, -- god they look like crap
Centurions - terible - just terrible models

When this looks like a genuine codex entry, you know GW doesn't hire writers:

Wolf Sergeant Wolfenstein is the marine all Space Wolves aspire to be. Wielding the Wolftalons of Wolfblood (which confer the Wolfrend ability), he cuts down all foes before him. He has never been bested in single combat, and is a tactical genius, using his wolfish cunning.
It is said that every enemy of the wolves fears his wolfish grin, as it signals that he is about to wolf-pounce on every wolf-foe to attack them wolfishly with his wolftalons of wolfblood to wolfrip and wolftear so that wolves can wolfy wolfy wolf.

 Selym wrote:

Really though, the BT retcon is silly and unnecessary. They very obviously only put it in so that the BT would ook more codex-compliant. And more in line with their spiritual-fething-lieges.

All the SM chapters are supposed to follow the codex. And you're in C:SM now. You should be more codex-adherent. Otherwise you'd have to have your own book.

We *DID* have our own codex. Then GW decided they couldn't be bothered to support BT as a separate book.

BrianDavion wrote:

 chromedog wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
So the SC2 marine then? :p

The what now?

Marines in Star Craft are basicly the old school 2nd edition Space Marines...

and I'm sure Blizzard is well aware of that.

I'll take your word for it. Never played any of them. Never wanted to. I'm not part of that videogame demographic.

 Shadow Walker wrote:
I hate how Black Templars were changed to basically male version of Sisters of Battle. They were secular [Imperial Truth]

Black Templars were not originally secular. The original description of the Emperor's Champion (3rd edition vanilla codex) was:
"Upon the eve of glorious battle, it is customary amongst the Imperial Fists and their successors, most notably the Black Templars Chapter, for one among their number to be granted the majestic honour of becoming the Champion of the Emperor. The battle-brethren gather together in prayer to the Emperor and their Primarch, Rogal Dorn. Ecstatic vision will come over one of the assembled brethren and they will be led away by the Company Chaplain to receive the revered vestments of the Champion of the Emperor - the Black Sword, the Armour of Fath and the numerous accouterments of the position. The Champion of the Emperor will then spend the following hours in self-meditation and communion with the Emperor."

Codex: Black Templars didn't go to the level of detail but still had the Emperor's Champion being chosen because he received a vision from the Emperor (really not a secular way of doing things), whilst the section on the chapters Chaplains included: "The central shrine where prayer and worship is conducted within the the Eternal Crusader is known as the Temple of Dorn.. (blah blab blah) ..But the Chaplains teach that the presence of a formal chapel is not always necessary; that the fires of battle are places of worship, the roar of bolters are prayers and the slaughter of foes an offering to the Emperor."

The Imperial Truth itself was a retcon, the original fluff for the Heresy had Emperor worship in full effect, whilst the Word Bearers Index Astartes article had them being chastised by the Emperor because they weren't doing their alotted job, rather than because they were not following the Imperial Truth: "When the Emperor took note of Lorgar's slow advance across the stars, he personally reproached his Primarch. He informed Lorgar that his purpose was not for faith, but for battle. The true mission of the Space Marines was to re-conquer and unify the galaxy under the banner of Imperium, not to waste precious time and resources in vast displays of fealty and piety."

Retcon I'm not keen on is the whole Alpha Legion stuff with Alpharius/Omegon and maybe they are really loyal, maybe they aren't. I liked their original version which was essentially Space Terrorists; they went around sneaking into worlds and sowing discord, making people doubt the Imperium, encouraging cults, and then finally made themselves known with a full-scale uprising, only to run away at the end to do the same thing later.

I also didn't like what I've read about the Imperial Truth stuff and the Word Bearers, it was originally that they weren't conquering fast enough because they would stop and convert the masses, not because the Emperor didn't want to be worshipped as a god (because he did)

Black Templars seemingly losing their uniqueness.

Space Wolves and the overabundance of Wolfish Wolfiness.

I do like the "newcrons" but I don't like how they went from being servants of the C'tan to destroying/enslaving them. They could have still given them power while having these massively powerful Star Gods the puppetmasters in the background.

I don't really like everything tying into the Old Ones, although I guess that has always been a thing at some point.

The whole "Imperial Truth" angle is a ret-con, only popularized in the last decade or so as we have seen an uptick in "science vs religion" debates in the real world. The Emperor was not some arch-atheist, he knew full damn well that gods existed, he just didn't like them (and kind of wanted a piece of that action). His is a very long game with the goal of shouldering his way into a place at the divine table.

Shadow Walker wrote:I hate how Black Templars were changed to basically male version of Sisters of Battle. They were secular [Imperial Truth], psyker hating [and last followers of Nikaea edict] and now they fall to knees when they see an astropath and would kiss an Eccesliarch's arse.

Your lack of knowledge of the Sisters of Battle leads me to believe you should reconsider your analogies.

 godardc wrote:
Let's speak about the multiples retcons of 40k's background.
Can we spot them all ?
Do you like them ?
Or not ?

Personnally, the biggest retcon I remember is the oldcron/newcron thing. They shouldn't have done this, for me.
They could have changed some Necron's background without making them a different army.

I concur. I could have dealt with a change to the Necron's fluff, but what they got was a lame copy-paste job from Fantasy, becoming "Tomb Kings in SPAAAAAAAAAAACE!!!!!!", but much less interesting. The old fluff wasn't without issues, but the faction was much more interesting.

Other Retcons that are bad.

"Imperial Stormtroopers" to "Tempestus Scions". Even setting aside the stupid hocus-pocus-ey renaming, the Schola Progenium fluff came off as a "Hogwarts/Hostel" torture porn parody.

Iron Hands going from explicitely having very few Dreads and venerating them very highly...to having gobs and gobs of them. Very poorly handled retcon.

As mentioned earlier, the Alpharius/Omegon/Alpha Legion stuff is...very poor.

The Space Wolves haven't really gotten a fluff "retcon" so much...but their fluff over the last ~7 or so years has been so poorly written, so poorly thought out, and so contradictory that they've become a bad parody of what they once were.

We've gotten some game units that also are retcons to some degree. Terminator Armor was the ultimate in infantry armor...but then we got Centurions and Dreadknights. Tau used to be a more "elite" and skimmer based mechanized IG, and now are looking more and more like something out of a Gundam series.

Honestly I'm having trouble thinking of fluff retcons I really liked. Their writing quality over the last 8 years or so has become increasingly poor.

 Psienesis wrote:
The whole "Imperial Truth" angle is a ret-con, only popularized in the last decade or so as we have seen an uptick in "science vs religion" debates in the real world. The Emperor was not some arch-atheist, he knew full damn well that gods existed, he just didn't like them (and kind of wanted a piece of that action). His is a very long game with the goal of shouldering his way into a place at the divine table.

weather or not the chaos gods qualify is honestly a legitimate debate depending on your definitioins of the word god.

 Gashrog wrote:
Minor irk:
Although I do like the blue, Night Lords were briefly black. Y'know, the colour of DARK SCARY NIGHT. I kinda feel this is more fitting than late evening/romantic moonlit stroll night.

To be entirely fair, I remember reading somewhere about that specific issue, and it seems dark blue actually conceals you better to the human eye in a dark environment than plain black. Don't ask me why.

The golden details and huge red helmets though...

I dislike the changes to the BTs with regards to size and okay with psykers, Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade, ...whatever happened to Space Wolves, the degree to which the Alpha Legion have gone from embittered guerrilla warriors to Scooby Doo Marines hanging out in abandoned theme parks, and Fulgrim's possession,

Not made my mind about the Newcrons.

Newcrons suck. Ugh.

The newcrons aren't really a retcon, because that would imply the oldcrons had any meaningful fluff.
I really don't like that they made the C'tan into the Necron version of Pokemons though.

That I can handle, it's the stupidity of the idea of a galaxy-spanning empire with no proprietary FTL that bugged me.