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Does anybody else dislike the current restriction on grenade use, i.e., that you can only use one per unit per phase?

Suppose I have an army of marines. They all have frag grenades. Only one can throw a grenade per shooting phase.

They can all charge a tank. They all have krak grenades. But only one can throw a krak grenade at that tank.

Does anybody else feel as though this is unduly and unrealistically restrictive?

Again there are more units in the game then your space marines. You need to think about. the full implication of letting units shoot grenades

In SM's case you get a flurry of S6 shots for free basically making all of their pistols pointless

In Tau's case you get squads of Fire Warriors chucking 12 Haywire grenades and annihilating any vehicle in the game including massive super heaveies such as baneblades and titans for less then 150 points

Grenades and restricted for game balance/

CrownAxe wrote:In SM's case you get a flurry of S6 shots for free

At 8 inch range or less.

basically making all of their pistols pointless

The pistols would still have a point at ranges in between 12 inches or less and greater than 8 inches.

Also, pistols count as close combat weapons. So there's that.

Furthermore, IF can reroll 1s on bolt pistols. On grenades? Not so much.

In Tau's case you get squads of Fire Warriors chucking 12 Haywire grenades

Again, at 8 inches or less.

Grenades and restricted for game balance/

It seems to me as though the "8 inches or less" thing already basically balances things.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Again there are more units in the game then your space marines. You need to think about. the full implication of letting units shoot grenades

In SM's case you get a flurry of S6 shots for free basically making all of their pistols pointless

In Tau's case you get squads of Fire Warriors chucking 12 Haywire grenades and annihilating any vehicle in the game including massive super heaveies such as baneblades and titans for less then 150 points

Grenades and restricted for game balance/

This.

Also, grenades in real life are not thrown by entire units at once, you get maybe a couple grenades tossed just before everyone storms in.

Vaktathi wrote:Also, grenades in real life are not thrown by entire units at once, you get maybe a couple grenades tossed just before everyone storms in.

Is there any a priori reason why the thing cannot be done, though?

Again, if my space marines get charged by a wraithknight, why would 4 out of 5 of the marines insist on punching it uselessly while the fifth guy actually has the good sense to pull out a krak grenade?

You just talked about how IF's get rerolls to hit with the pistol, even though the S6 still makes the Krak mathematically superior.
So you'd use Bolters 9-24" and then Grenades. You actually are making Pistols pointless, as you aren't going to make a 9-12" charge most likely.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You just talked about how IF's get rerolls to hit with the pistol, even though the S6 still makes the Krak mathematically superior.
So you'd use Bolters 9-24" and then Grenades. You actually are making Pistols pointless, as you aren't going to make a 9-12" charge most likely.

You've never declared a charge at ranges in between 8.00000001 and 12 inches? If only to soak overwatch?

You've never been in a situation in which accuracy was to be valued over strength/AP?

Traditio wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Also, grenades in real life are not thrown by entire units at once, you get maybe a couple grenades tossed just before everyone storms in.

Is there any a priori reason why the thing cannot be done, though?

Mostly because for how grenades are actually used there's no need for using *that* many grenades, and most people are moving and preparing to engage in other actions (such as breaching, or lining up behind the breacher, or providing covering fire, etc) such that tossing in more grenades isn't feasible. You toss in a grenade or two to shock and disorient and hurt/kill anyone not under cover, it's a suppression weapon that can also be used to clear an enclosed space like a pillbox, not a volley fire weapon.

Again, if my space marines get charged by a wraithknight, why would 4 out of 5 of the marines insist on punching it uselessly while the fifth guy actually has the good sense to pull out a krak grenade?

Probably because they're not actually trying to punch it, but distract it so the someone can try and do something useful with a grenade. Anti-tank grenades (and equivalents) in real life were never used by swarming infantry all over the tank and having each one clamp a grenade on, you had one or two dudes run up and clamp something on/toss a bundle of grenades on top of an engine compartment, and then run off because being near that was highly lethal.

Traditio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You just talked about how IF's get rerolls to hit with the pistol, even though the S6 still makes the Krak mathematically superior.
So you'd use Bolters 9-24" and then Grenades. You actually are making Pistols pointless, as you aren't going to make a 9-12" charge most likely.

You've never declared a charge at ranges in between 8.00000001 and 12 inches? If only to soak overwatch?

You've never been in a situation in which accuracy was to be valued over strength/AP?

You have no understanding of math I guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
10 pistol shots rerolling 1's to hit is about 7.7 hits. That's 1.3 Marines dead. 10 Kraks is about 6.7 hits. That's 1.9 Marines dead.
Why would I ever use the pistol?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:10 pistol shots rerolling 1's to hit is about 7.7 hits. That's 1.3 Marines dead. 10 Kraks is about 6.7 hits. That's 1.9 Marines dead.
Why would I ever use the pistol?

Because you're at a distance of greater than 8 inches and wish to declare a charge. It's really that simple.

Why would I need to charge with Tactical Marines? Bolt Pistols won't soften up targets like Grenades would.

Also I basically never charge over that distance just to eat Overwatch. It isn't that dangerous.

People are right. It makes pistols pointless.

You can bring up the 8" stuff all you like but that situation is going to come up so little it doesn't really matter. This isn't even talking about how units with haywire grenades become able to obliterate vehicles.

Removed by insaniak. If you're not interested in participating in the thread, please refrain from posting in it.

Clearly 40k needs more realism.

 raverrn wrote:
Clearly 40k needs more realism.

That is the last thing I want 40k to have

It seems logical fluff wise that the single S6 attack is a representation of either the entire squad chucking grenades in hopes of 1 landing in a vital place OR 1 soldier placing a grenade on a vital spot and attempting to disengage before the squad is destroyed. If a 10 man squad charged a rhino itd be suicide to all jump on the tank, blow it up and die along with it. Thats just my opinion

Well i know where this is going but, wth?

Now i know you dont really care about non SM armies but think about this for a second, if you removed this restriction you would have Ork boy mobz chucking 30 Stikkbombz (read Frag Grenades), Tau Breachers chucking 12 Haywire grenades (and they want to be close), Imp Guard Conscripts chucking 50 Frag Grenades a turn, and Battle Sisters chucking 20 Krak grenades a turn. This is not a good thing.

Orks would suddenly become much more accurate and could cause significantly more damage as, while its a small blast, Frags are capable of hitting multiple models. Breachers would destroy every vehicle every, cuz they want to be point blank anyway, and the Conscripts and Sisters would just laugh as they hurl large amounts of explosives at things.

In short it would get stupid. Fast.

 Grimmor wrote:
Well i know where this is going but, wth?

Now i know you dont really care about non SM armies but think about this for a second, if you removed this restriction you would have Ork boy mobz chucking 30 Stikkbombz (read Frag Grenades), Tau Breachers chucking 12 Haywire grenades (and they want to be close), Imp Guard Conscripts chucking 50 Frag Grenades a turn, and Battle Sisters chucking 20 Krak grenades a turn.

At 8 inch range.

Just pointing that out.

It still makes pistol shooting effectively redundant. The sorts range is balanced out the blast markers.

That's not just guessing... It's how it worked in 2nd Ed, and it was ridiculous.

While I could see an argument for two or three models rather than one, allowing the whole squad to throw grenades goes to some unpleasant places.

 insaniak wrote:
It still makes pistol shooting effectively redundant. The sorts range is balanced out the blast markers.

That's not just guessing... It's how it worked in 2nd Ed, and it was ridiculous.

While I could see an argument for two ore three models rather than one, allowing the whole squad to throw grenades goes to show unpleasant places.

You could throw grenades in 2nd ed?

Traditio wrote:
Does anybody else dislike the current restriction on grenade use, i.e., that you can only use one per unit per phase?

Suppose I have an army of marines. They all have frag grenades. Only one can throw a grenade per shooting phase.

They can all charge a tank. They all have krak grenades. But only one can throw a krak grenade at that tank.

Does anybody else feel as though this is unduly and unrealistically restrictive?

Well not only have people pointed out the clear problems with allowing more than one shooting attack with grenades, but you also conveniently seem to be forgetting that once you assault with a unit that has grenades, they can all make one attack with a grenade (e.g. a 7-man Tactical.Squad can charge a Rhino and all 7 models can make one attack with a Krakk Grenade).

So given the above as well as the restrictions on shooting attacks made with grenades, they are balanced.

Also, what imbalance in the game or broken aspect of the game are you trying to fix with this?

Because this doesn't seem to address any imbalance or problem. Furthermore, your implied suggestion of increasing the number of models in a unit that can make shooting attacks with grenades only serves to add imbalance and problems to the game.

IllumiNini wrote:Well not only have people pointed out the clear problems with allowing more than one shooting attack with grenades, but you also conveniently seem to be forgetting that once you assault with a unit that has grenades, they can all make one attack with a grenade (e.g. a 7-man Tactical.Squad can charge a Rhino and all 7 models can make one attack with a Krakk Grenade).

I don't think that's true. Only one model per unit can make an attack with a grenade per phase. That includes the assault phase.

Also, what imbalance in the game or broken aspect of the game are you trying to fix with this?

It would make tacticals better vs. vehicles.

Traditio wrote:

IllumiNini wrote:Well not only have people pointed out the clear problems with allowing more than one shooting attack with grenades, but you also conveniently seem to be forgetting that once you assault with a unit that has grenades, they can all make one attack with a grenade (e.g. a 7-man Tactical.Squad can charge a Rhino and all 7 models can make one attack with a Krakk Grenade).

I don't think that's true. Only one model per unit can make an attack with a grenade per phase. That includes the assault phase.

I might be wrong about this, but 7-8 times out of 10, this is how myself, my friends and many of the peeps down at my FLGS play it. My bad if it's wrong, in which case I will retract this statement.

Traditio wrote:

Also, what imbalance in the game or broken aspect of the game are you trying to fix with this?

It would make tacticals better vs. vehicles.

Why do they need to be better against vehicles? They're infantry, they don't need to be. If Tactical Squads were supposed to be good against vehicles, where would you stop giving them advantages against vehicles? After you've given them the ability to throw more grenades? After you allow them to take two each of Heavy Weapons and Special Weapons instead of one each? Also, let's assume Tactical Squads need to be good and/or better against vehicles. What would this mean for Anti-Vehicle Weaponry?

And not once have I ever heard anything along the lines of "I wish my Tactical Squad could do more against vehicles." or "Thank god your Tactical Squad can't do more against vehicles." The idea of Tacticals needing to be better against vehicles is not an issue. It might be for a particular list that you wrote for your army, but it's definitely not an issue overall for the game.

Traditio wrote:

I don't think that's true. Only one model per unit can make an attack with a grenade per phase. That includes the assault phase..

Only one model can throw a grenade each phase.

You don't throw grenades when using them as melee weapons. Everybody in the unit can assault with grenades.

Traditio wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:
Well i know where this is going but, wth?

Now i know you dont really care about non SM armies but think about this for a second, if you removed this restriction you would have Ork boy mobz chucking 30 Stikkbombz (read Frag Grenades), Tau Breachers chucking 12 Haywire grenades (and they want to be close), Imp Guard Conscripts chucking 50 Frag Grenades a turn, and Battle Sisters chucking 20 Krak grenades a turn.

At 8 inch range.

Just pointing that out.

And Orks and Breachers werent already at that range? Orks want to punch you, so thats where they are gonna be, Breachers get to be AP 3 at that range so thats where they want to be. In any event 12 Haywire attacks for that kind of price is completely nuts, and no i dont care that it "would make tacticals better against vehicles" Go buy a Melta gun for the squad if you want it to kill vehicles.

 insaniak wrote:

Traditio wrote:

I don't think that's true. Only one model per unit can make an attack with a grenade per phase. That includes the assault phase..

Only one model can throw a grenade each phase.

You don't throw grenades when using them as melee weapons. Everybody in the unit can assault with grenades.

This is how my Battle Sisters kill Necrons.

If you need Tactical Marines to be better against vehicles, you could always go my route and let Tacticals take two Special Weapons at ten dudes.
Of course you don't have any concept of balance so you don't listen.

 insaniak wrote:

Traditio wrote:

I don't think that's true. Only one model per unit can make an attack with a grenade per phase. That includes the assault phase..

Only one model can throw a grenade each phase.

You don't throw grenades when using them as melee weapons. Everybody in the unit can assault with grenades.

I'll have to check the rules on this. If true, that's pretty sweet.

Tradito why do you always argue about rules when you don't understand how they work?

You can use grenades in melee so long as the target is a vehicle or monstrous/gargantuan creature. You cannot use them against any other target type.

The guy is entitled to ask a question or make a suggestion. If you find it annoying, it's best not to participate in the thread.