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Guys , I`m a TO for our LGS and have been playing since the end of 5th. I`ve won multiple tournaments and placed highly in many , many others. I own 5 armies and can put together any cacophony of fully painted WYSIWYG cheese. The reason I`m saying this is because I don`t want everyone to think this is a whining hate rant resulting from losing games.
In 5th 40K night was packed in our LGS , I mean packed. You had to wait for a table. Now it`s dead , maybe the same 2 or 3 guys. Why is this? Why is warmachine night packed and 40K night empty? 2 reasons , GW`s greed and horrible rule writing. 2 up re-rollable knights in a regular game? I`ve nerfed a lot in our tournament formats just to give everyone a chance.
Purpose of this rant is that I think ITC should do even more regarding altering the game. Remember those guys own a store run events etc. They have the time to devote into improving the game. Moveable terrain , really? I have just spent $ 400.00 on warmachine . Guess where that same money would have gone in the past..... Even reading some of the bat reps the game mechanisms are just silly. Riptides fire twice ?? Free obj secured vehicles? Not to mention summoning?
I really hope in some way that the ITC would actually put out an alternative rule set for competitive play. I used to travel all over for events. That stopped quite awhile ago. My friends who were playing since 2nd have all quit. I've been reading the frontline posts and it seems even those guys are starting to tire of the power creep. Psychic phase is just brutal and overpowering , 4 knights in a game , ally cheese....
The idea of a codex means you play to its strengths and try to minimize its weaknesses . Not cheese allying your way out of it. Oh hey Tau suck in CC and the psychic so let me marine or cullexus my way out of it. I actually like the challenge of working through a codex`s weaknesses.
I remember my IG in 5th. I knew they struggled getting across the table so I had to find other ways to win. Now I would just ally my way out of it. Maybe it`s me but I thought the challenge was the fun part.

So please can the ITC and internet community find a way to improve the game with the very best fluff and very best mini`s out there bar none.

A few thoughts of my own...
increase the cost of all spells by 1 warp charge , or limit how many per warp charges per game
2 sources only BB or self ally
no fortifications or super heavies (I have multiples of both). Both can skewer the game or increase the pay to play aspect

ITC can only do so much and they're also damned in they do and damned if they don't on most calls. It's also not so simple seeing as frontline can't come down too hard on anything seeing as they're a retailer. It's difficult to harp on stuff and then sell it, it doesn't look good.



With that said, the game needs to fundamentally go back to one faction, once codex. It needs to go back to being a skirmish game that doesn't take 8 hours to play. I don't think every faction will ever be fully balanced but it has to start there, Strengths and weaknesses, ups and downs.

I agree , what you are saying is a good start.

Haldir wrote:
Guys , I`m a TO for our LGS and have been playing since the end of 5th. I`ve won multiple tournaments and placed highly in many , many others. I own 5 armies and can put together any cacophony of fully painted WYSIWYG cheese. The reason I`m saying this is because I don`t want everyone to think this is a whining hate rant resulting from losing games.
In 5th 40K night was packed in our LGS , I mean packed. You had to wait for a table. Now it`s dead , maybe the same 2 or 3 guys. Why is this? Why is warmachine night packed and 40K night empty? 2 reasons , GW`s greed and horrible rule writing. 2 up re-rollable knights in a regular game?

This is pretty much my experience. You get a few people that love to run that sort of thing, and everyone else stops showing up and/or just arranges games once in a blue moon on the side with close pals. My own FLGS is basically running 4-6 person tournaments at this point, where we used to have 18-24 routinely.

Purpose of this rant is that I think ITC should do even more regarding altering the game. Remember those guys own a store run events etc. They have the time to devote into improving the game. Moveable terrain , really?

I fully agree. I'd love to play a pre 6E style event with just the old FOC and no allies, GC/SH units, invuls better than 4+ being relatively rare (and rerolls practically nonexistent), no crazy psychic powers like Invisibility, etc. Hell, I'd probably drive out of my way and pay twice the normal entry fee.

Our events too are 4-6 , shame because I really love playing this game. But all the "old guard" that I started with have all quit. We need a real revamp. A lot of the tactics rules and stratagems have become plain silly. Summoning on top of summoning 2 up`s everywhere , grav spam , free vehicles , LOW in regular games... Out of greed GW has made apocalypse part of the common game. Formations ... really , GW doesn`t even play test individual units never mind working in concert with formations.

Yeah, the game is trying to do too many things and does none of them well. It's trying to hamfist the granularity of a skirmish game onto a system that really plays somwhere between platoon and company level, while also hamfisting in elements more suited to a more strategic level wargame, so we got the worst of all of these scales but none of the good stuff. Really, the Titan doesn't give a crap of Sergeant #398984 is armed with a Mace or an Axe...and why are we bothering to distinctly portray his duel with Chaos Lord Slashstab who's just going to smear him and move on anyway just before the Titan obliterates everything. Why are we portraying an aerial duel between a Lightning Interceptor and a Razorwing...on the same board as infantry fighting melee combat...that doesn't work or make sense.

That they then layer absurd stuff like formations and abuseable psychic powers on top certainly doesn't help. Removing formations and allies would probably be the quickest, and easiest thing to greatly improve balance (though obviously far from fixing everything).

I agree , perhaps increasing all warp charges by one. 30 guardsman receiving front rank fire with divination ... come on 90 rapid fire twin linked... Funny part is that`s probably one of the least abusive..

Most deathstars rely on allies. Reducing BB to AoC fixes those.
If you allow just one IC per unit and only units in the same detachment leaves just eldar shenanigans and screamer star.
That's fixed with only allowing rerolls to saves 3+ - 6+ what ever the type and allowing a unit to generate psychic as many dice and cast only as many powers as the highest psychic level of that unit.

Then add 6th edition monster rules, 5th edition transport rules and force formation unit selection to highlander format.

Did this leave something that is ruining the games intact?

Again great ideas coming out. I think a single FOC with the highlander rules would be awesome. can you refresh the 5th and 6th rules? You are right about allies being a big part of the problem.

For me, the biggest issue is the sheer number of rules-based supplements now available. As an occasional tournament player, I would buy all the rules during 5th edition. For 6th and part of 7th, I'd try to at least keep up with what the significant rules were (looking at blogs etc. with rules summaries). But the task of even knowing and understanding what most of the main rules are -- let alone knowing them well enough to make rules calls -- has now become enormous.

You combine that with what you've said already -- the game no longer being especially balanced, and therefore not much fun -- and I really don't have the motivation to keep up with the rules any more. Which, like you, has meant I've increasingly been playing other systems, and buying other minis, for the past year.

I've still bought most of the big boxed sets -- the Horus Heresy one, the stealer cult one, even the overpriced assassins. But mostly they're still sitting in the boxes, waiting for me to care. I didn't buy the Knights set; I would have, a year ago.

Fixing it? I would like to see a complete rewrite, done by the community (ITC would be fine -- they are pretty trustworthy on rules stuff I think), with the aim of simplifying it and stabilising it. We don't need new formations every month. Just a solid, balanced game. Don't get me wrong, I love formations, but one army book per army, with well playtested, well-designed formations, is more that enough.

The best rules adjustments I've personally come across are the following:

-If a unit includes more than one Independent Character, Look Out Sir! -rolls only succeed on a 4+
-Invisibility is hit at BS1 & WS1
-Re-rollable 2+ saves are nerfed to 2+/4+
-Detachment restriction of 3 total in an army of 1500
-Deathstar building blocks and overpowered formations (such as Librarius Conclave, Wolfkin, CoTGW, War Convocation, Riptide Wing) ruled as taking up 2 Detachments
-All Decurion style sheets ruled as taking up 2 Detachments
-1 Super Heavy Vehicle/GC allowed, up to 550 points with or without upgrades
-Warp Spiders limited to 2 units maximum
-The army can only include one of each Detachment, outside Decurion sheets

These have multiple effects inside the point size of 1500 and I won't go indepth into all of them as it would require 2 thread pages, but by trying it out you can probably see the differences in practice very easily. Some weaker things are affected, but the stronger elements are affected more. The key is that the field is more level after the adjustments, than what it was before.

These are in use in our tournament package that basically utilizes the better bits of ITC and ETC rules packages, and having participated and/or organized over 15 tourneys with said adjustments I can say with confidence that they even the field. Most hits are delivered to deathstars and spamming, where I feel the hits are also the most needed. In addition we also have Maelstrom Of War re-adjusted for more sensible play, but I feel the ones mentioned above are really the core. They have been developed and inspired by major rules packages, and players from different countries with a more than credible record in competitive tournament play.

I feel that if some day the bigger tournament packages get more courageous about balancing the game out (I know it's not an easy thing to do especially if one is a retailer) then we will see more even fields in competitive play. But that's obvious, ofcourse. Everything that has been ruled to break the game, can be unruled.

I like a lot of it. I was thinking of this . Reason being that it will cause a lot of units to be played that you normally wouldn`t see.

A single FOC , no duplicate of any kind barring troops. No 2 of the same troops unless you have already filled all the troop slots. No fortifications LOW`s or GMC`s. This could bring a lot of variety to the table.

All warp charges are upped by 1 to get the spell off

Defaulting to the ITC on all other rule inquiries

What do you think?

From my experience, we've held a few Highlander -style tournaments with almost the same limitations as described here. While as an idea it is nice, we detected a problem with singular powerful units gaining even more advantage over their weaker counterparts.

The most obvious example is the Centurion Devastators, which can end up almost soloing the enemy army in a Highlander -format (as with a few buffs and a Drop Pod, they become really deadly and the opponents tools to counter them are limited in HL. ) So in a nutshell, singular tough units are a problem in the Highlander format. The format used to work better though a few years back.

That can ofcourse be toned down by adjusting said units, but it would be quite a task to undertake and update. Personally I'd also touch as few units exclusively as possible, and use general adjustments.

What`s so bad about the devastators? They would have a disproportionate effect? Would Maelstrom help mitigate it? Also do broods count as one slot? Two dakka fexes in one heavy support slot , is that permissible?

Just thinking ... How this would effect my Tyranid list

1 - Flyrant not 3 0r 4
2 - lot more troops than a few mucolid spores
3- might use a tervigon now
4 - 1 Crone not 3!
5 - 1 Mawloc not 2

Totally different way to play.

40k is done in my area. And I don't expect to see it back.

My LGS is very , very close.

Really guys? 5th edition was a joke. I have no idea why people use that as a measuring stick. Tournaments were 90% Grey Knights with the same list. Half my gaming group quit because of that.

Formations and allies add variety. I rarely play the against the same lists now. Most ITC tournaments have variety in the top 8 already. Those guys are doing great, but I don't think they should push it farther. The new faq addresses some of the super friends abuse which is a step in the right direction.

The problem with comping is it just shifts the meta. It does not fix anything only changes what codex is strongest. Nerfing psychic powers just means armies that rely on it (Daemons) are effectively neutered. I could ask you to nerf shooting then and Tau would be neutered. Don't get me started on the whining misinformation. Screamerstar is not a thing anymore guys. You cannot cast the same power from the same unit. Yes, they can get 2++ rerollable, but who is scared of 1 str 5 ap 2 ws 3 hit from each screamer? They have no major damage.

If your community is dying, do more to build your community. A lot of us are excited by the recent changes with GW (AOS points, FAQ, asking feedback). If you think Warmachine has balance, you are sadly mistaken, but please, if you are unhappy, go find your greener pasture.

Drakkol wrote:
Really guys? 5th edition was a joke. I have no idea why people use that as a measuring stick. Tournaments were 90% Grey Knights with the same list. Half my gaming group quit because of that.

Because most of 5ed had already happened by the time the GK was released. GK only reigned supreme for 1 year of the 5 year long edition

So 1/5th of the time it was GK. You are right. 4/5th of the time it was space marine parking lot edition until GK did it better. It still was a borong edition unless you played Imperium.

Drakkol wrote:
Really guys? 5th edition was a joke. I have no idea why people use that as a measuring stick. Tournaments were 90% Grey Knights with the same list. Half my gaming group quit because of that.

Nobody is saying 5E was perfect, it wasnt. Thats said, it was a damn sight better than what we have now, which is a game trying to do what 3 different games used to.

GK's also didnt appear until half way through the edition, and really only dominated for about a year (2010-2011). We had SW's, BA's, IG, DE, and Smurfs also very strong in 5th, wwth Necrons also theast 6 months or so, it wasnt all GK's all the time the whole edition.

Formations and allies add variety.

...if by variety you mean free stuff. I mean...you get *different* cookie cutter stuff than in previous editions...but its still cookie cutter.

These are sales mechanisms to move web bundles and the like, not positive gameplay additions.

If your community is dying, do more to build your community.

thats not entirely our responsibility, if GW is putting out gack, no amount of community building is going to fix that. It doesnt help that GW actively takes pride in the fact that ot does not interact with its customers.

lot of us are excited by the recent changes with GW (AOS points, FAQ, asking feedback)

These are baby step bandaids, not structural fixes.

Drakol why the hate rant about greener pastures ? The lists you talk about a 10 yr old could run . I've SEEN people at events with NO skill whatsoever win games by using them. Even with an increased warp charge Daemons are still brutally tough.

Highlander , peope might not like that version because it might require tactical skill and decision making. How could you even take seriously some of the lists and broken tactics ??? I won because of my 2 up re-roll and because in my 3 sources I could mid-max. Yes , my twice firing rip Tides won the game. Oh yes all my free obj secured vehicles won the game. Yep that's the way I enjoy winning.

Greener pastures ? How many tournaments have you won or placed in? Better yet how many have you been a TO in? If you think it's so great why do people keep saying its dying in their area.

You should have read the first post , I already own all of the models to put any kind of cheese net list together. The purpose of the thread was to explore ways to make the game more,about tactics less about broken game mechanics . But if it works for you go for it and find another thread.

You also talk of building the community. No one wants to shop up for an event and get steamrolled 3 games. Stats of the game now is if you aren't paying to play you have no chance . That's why in my events things are toned down to encourage more people to play. That's how you build a gaming community .

You talk about tactics and skill, but can't get a win using missions? If you are playing Eternal War missions still, it is your own fault.

Highlander just shifts the meta like I said. There will still be a OP list with Highlander. Then you can complain about that list.
Most of my lists, even at tournaments, are unintentionally Highlander.

We are running a 3 month league right now with plenty of interest in my area. It is far from dying. I have no idea why you people think the community itself is not responsible for its own community. I have yet to see the same list twice in this 20 person league. Nothing is banned and there are some tough lists.

If you think a 10 year old can win with a Daemons army...you are showing your inexperience. The most random army in the game. I haven't had my mini screamerstar survive in the last 4 games I have played. No idea why you guys are having a problem with it. Maybe tactics like you say...

The updated version of our event is now posted.

At this point nothing can save this edition, there needs to be a FULL rework of the core rules and ALL codexes, preferably released and playtested together.

Balance
There will always be cheese and 'most effective units'. GW has no hope of achieving 'perfect game balance'. Tweaking the rules only changes the 'unbalanced units'.
As earlier mentioned, GK and Marine parking lots ruled 5th. There has always been a 'top codex' that was better than the rest. If you nurf scat bikes, warp spiders and WKs another codex will be played by all the top players.

IMHO, the only things that should be tweaked are things that keep the game from being fun. What makes someone not have any fun?
* Not being able to kill enemy models. If there is no feeling of accomplishment, the game will feel very boring. This is one of the problems with deathstars.
* Not being able to act during your turn. This includes having movement blocked or getting assaulted turn one. You should at least be able to do something.
Think of it like someone playing Blue in Magic the Gathering. People who played denial decks were just donkey-caves and led for a less enjoyable game. If we are going to houserule then we should houserule to remove those elements.

Attendance
In regards to the game shrinking, in the New England area it's still very strong. On any Friday night at my LFGS there are 12-20 players playing in the league. It's very easy to find pickup game during the weekend, and hitting a tourney every other weekend is very feasible.

The real metric would be large tourney attendance. Are events like Adepicon shrinking? Is NOVA still pulling the same numbers?

No one is asking for "perfect balance". Only for a honest effort to try.

well, think that with 2 rules they can balance a lot the game (even if still the tau, marines and eldar will be on the top):

- Low the level of brothers in arms to the previous level, so no wombo combos. But you still can use the units of the ally to make cool looking/lore armies
- No gargantuan/colossal units

Easy

Franarok wrote:
well, think that with 2 rules they can balance a lot the game (even if still the tau, marines and eldar will be on the top):

- Low the level of brothers in arms to the previous level, so no wombo combos. But you still can use the units of the ally to make cool looking/lore armies
- No gargantuan/colossal units

Wombo combo units are not breaking the game at tourneys. You can make some good lists with them, and I've seen some gross wolfstar lists -- but take a look at the LVO. Warp spider spam won it.
Some of the gargantuan units are not a problem IMHO. Knights can die really quickly. Wraithknights and stormsurges are a different story. They are extremely overpowered for their cost due to having a toughness value instead of AV.
One quick way to fix that is to get rid of the free FNP and change the roll of a 6 on the stomp table to a STR 10 hit, and prevent stomps from affecting MCs or FMCs. It's stupid when a D-thirster gets stomped out by a stormsurge.

we still have 10-15 people, but the signs are clearly showing. I'm looking to hop into another game soon. The main reason I'm starting KDK is so I can double my daemons as KOW forces of the abyss, making two games from one army.

Its sad thinking a game I've spent 10+ years in a hobby only to watch everyone i know quit the hobby. Nowadays I know just as many people playing infinity or war machine then warhammer, and most people who own multiple systems choose to play other games then warhammer.

give it 5 years and warhammer will that niche game that only a few people play, and a new game will officially take over as the major miniature war-game that everyone plays

honestly, I'm not sure it';s nesscarily the rules fault, not entirely.

40k is expensive to get into, compare how much is costs to get a 2000 point 40k army, contrast this to X-wing where a 100 point list probly costs you 100 bucks. also the sheer size of the armies makes transport a bit of a pain.

so what does this mean? well for a start getting into 40k is intimidating. every 40k player knows at least one person whose walked into a GW store, looked into getting the game then calmly walked out never to return upon realizing the costs involved.
what this means is that the state of churn for 40k, proably isn't very healthy. gaming in general is something of a niche hobby, and I suspect 40Ks not getting a lot of serious new blood these days. the problem isn't so much that old faces aren't showing up, that always happens, people get married, have kids get new jobs etc. the problem is weather or not new players are replacing those old players.