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So we have some great oppinions of the most overcost units in the game, what are the most UNDERCOST units in the game?

Bolter Marines are obvious
BP & CCW marines of course (especially using the advantage that gives that ability to Tac Squads)
Chaplain + Retinue (Fearless, re-roll missed to hit on charge, 4+ inv save & power weapon for 85pts)
Necron warriors

What else?

Monolith?

Assault cannon in its current configuration.

Bloody bog standard tac marines.

 

Skimmers in general, and AV13 skimmer tanks with the ability to avoid 'immobilized' damage results in particular.

While low AV skimmers are only slightly annoying to take down, the 'glance-only' rule means that it takes almost *double* the number of high-powered shots to take down AV13 skimmers. While technically S7 can glance, you need 6 *hits* (that's 9-12 shots depending on your BS) to get a 1/3 chance of disabling them. So that's 27-36 S7 shots to get a destroyed/weapon destroyed on average. I suppose it's possible to pack 18 autocannons into a guard army...

It just seems wrong that a Leman Russ or Land Raider pops easier than a Hammerhead or Falcon. This is more an issue with vehicular damage tables, really; but as it stands, the skimmer-tanks are no brainers for their cost.

Sisters of Battle... all of them.  But the basic sister is the worst.
Blood Angel jump troops.
Blood Angel Death Co.

Feral Ork Madboyz.

Fearless, Strength 5, Toughness 4 with 4 attacks on the charge for around 8 points each after figuring in the styboyz.  Yes please.

- Oaka

Yeah, those Madboyz are ridiculously efficient.

Hmm. WLs are probably a bit undercosted, but not that badly anymore.

I see what you mean on the skimmer tanks. Roughgoing them.

Libbys have to be on there. They get the free force weapon, which is an almost gauranteed instant kill at initiative. Not to mention Fury and Fear.

Marines. Sisters. Chaos Marines. Wraithlords used to be, but I think no longer--now they're about right (give or take a few points). KOS Fighta-bomma raid, even with all it's inaccuracies etc.

Blood Angels Chaplain, with the Death Company.
What you get are 70 point models for about 30. And a lot of them. Nothing like upgrading your veteran scout seargant to a lunatic with a power fist and a jump pack. For free. Hurrah.
And Elite Carnifex's with duel devourers. DakkaDakka indeed.

Blood Angels. all of them.

I hate Blood Angels.

Drop pods are one of the most undercosted (or overcosted, depending on whether we are talking about points or money!)

Posted By scottmpriz on 05/17/2006 12:50 PM
Blood Angels Chaplain, with the Death Company.
What you get are 70 point models for about 30. And a lot of them. Nothing like upgrading your veteran scout seargant to a lunatic with a power fist and a jump pack. For free. Hurrah.
And Elite Carnifex's with duel devourers. DakkaDakka indeed.

Agree on the Blood Angels, disagree on the Dakkafexes. Really, they do a lot of damage (though not nearly as much to MEQ, even Aspect/Fire Warriors save half the wounds.) They are pretty efficient, but not terribly undercosted at all.

All Space Marines are hideously undercosted. Their Special Characters are so poorly costed that they cost less than a similarly equipped regular model of like standing, yet are more effective.

Sisters, goes without saying.

And Drop Pods. Better armour than a Rhino, same weaponry, more range, more suvivability, and can carry Dreads and Termies. Yet it cost less. Wth?

And Elite Carnifex's with duel devourers. DakkaDakka indeed.

Disagree. It may have alot of shots, but the opponent ALWAYS gets their armor save, and in addition, can never ever penetrate a vehicle. It moves 6" a turn, and the weapons only have 18" range. Also, RAW says carnifexes have to take IB tests - so there is a chance that the dakkafex will fail, and simply sit where it is for a turn.

Compare to say, a wraithlord, that for a few more points can have a starcannon, 2 seperate flamers, has better BS/WS/I, is not subject to anything like IB, has S10 in combat, as well as an additional attack. Oh yeah, and it's T8, unlike the fex's T6. The WL has one less wound than the fex, so in that regard, the fex is alittle better.

I don't think the dakkafex is undercosted.

Wraithlords.

Sisters undercosted for effectiveness?

Hmmm. Well, I suppose that could be true, but I hi9ghly doubt it. In the hands of an experienced player, they may seem undercosted when your getting your buttocks handed to you by a bunch of girls, but I think they are still the most balanced list in 4th edition right now (keeping in mind that the witchhunter codex was made with 4th ed in mind).

Assault cannons on the other hand, even though this isnt a unit, the weapon itself is a heinous steal for any SM player. Termie armies equipped with *donkey*cannons are a bit more reasonable for the points though. A deathwing termie equipped with *donkey*cannon is 65 points without any veteran traits. Thats a lot of points for a single wound model.

I would say that necron warriors should be 20 points. Though with the lack of variety in the army, this may be a modifier to consider.

I cant even make up my mind about drop pods. If the opponent got the half points because they are naturally immobile, I wouldnt see a problem there.

Don't get me wrong; I think sisters are priced fine compared to marines (no WS/S/T 4 or ATSKNF), but they are undercosted compared to Stormtroopers, who should be more like 8-ish points, I don't care how many plasma guns they can have! And even that wouldn't be so bad except the STs under consideration are in the same codex. Otherwise, I agree that SOBs are one of the more balanced codicies.

Drop pods are, in fact, under-costed, unless we're playing that they immediately surrender 50% of their points for being immobile. Then it's cool, you're just spotting your opponent 75+ points in order to do something wacky.

1st place: Eldar Avatar

2nd place: LATD Spawn

3rd place: Eldar Wraithlord with starcannon

Marines.

Sisters are only undercosted because they have been priced in reference to Marine costs.


Pods? Nah, its the cost of what they deliver that upsets the balance. The pod itself does what its priced to do.

Obliterators.

Pods are pretty damn cheap... until they show up in turn 5 or 6... then they are really expensive...

I have to add a vote here for Battle sisters, especially the 2+ invulnerable save cannoness. Even basic sisters, for 11 points with power armour, boltgun and Faith, are probably the most cost-effective basic troops around.

Bloodletters are far too cheap for what you get - power armour, S5, power weapon, 5+ inv save and the ability to be summoned straight into charge ragnge - for only 26 points?

NECRON WARRIORS SHOULD NOT BE 20 POINTS. Yes they get back up but...they cannot regroup if below half strength, they are too fragile in combat. A sweeping advance can take out 300 points like nothing. Necron warriors should be 15 points. Or keep them at 18 points and raise their initiative to 3.

I'm sorry, DonkeyCannon, but I cannot see where you're coming from.  Yes, a sweeping advance will wipe them out, but how often does ld10 fail?  Also, their fragility in combat is offset by the good ol' "pull them through a  monolith and shoot the assaulting unit to pieces" trick.  On top of that, you forgot to mention Guass guns.  Arguably the best basic infantry gun in the game. 

Migsula:  Why do you think the Avatar is undercosted?  He moves at 6" a turn, can't ride transports, forced off the table in Escalation, can not fleet, Sv 5+, can't shoot.  He's monstrous, so he can always be shot at.  His "special benefit" only kicks in if he's in HTH - which he'll never be in, because he's got no way to boost his speed short of the "slingshot" technique.  Sure, he's not many points, but he's pretty useless.

Remember that Avatar is still S6 T6 W4 Monsterous Creature. A Daemon Prince with same stats (with exception of having 3+sv and only WS6) would cost 125 points. And Avatar still has those few special rules.
For that bargain cost of 80, I would almost always take him to Eldar army.

You'll probably all call me crazy, but my Eversor never fails to kill at least 150% of his points. Those first or second turn Land Raider kills never get old with him........ He always dies, but he's usually good for a few kills on high cost elite models like termies.  I haven't played much against Drop Pods which I know would greatly reduce his usefulness. 

I also have similar luck with my 3 deathcult assassins.  All they have to do is kill 3 marines or 1 termi to make their points back.

Leadership 10 has a 1 in 6 chance of failing. I take squads of 16 Warriors, 20 is just unmanagable, You can't take the minimum 10 because any decent player will focus fire on the small squads. Gauss weaponry is fantastic but it is in place of any kind of weapon option. No templates, ordnance, blast, ap 1-2-3-4 for warrirors. They are resiliant but a good player knows how to take them out effectively. If by chance a squad is below half strength or outnumbered their leadership drops to 9 which is a 1 in 4 chance of failing. Odds are I won't fail but its happened and at Initiative 2 being swept in combat happens almost all the time. Against MEQ's I rarely let my warriors get into combat but when I do my heart skips a beat everytime I have to roll for moral. Granted after that first assault I can port out and life is good. But the Necron army is all about protecting its Necron count. Gotta make sure the Lord with the Orb is within 6 inches of both squads. Gotta take the monolith so I can keep more of my Warriors alive. Spyders allow me to be up to a foot away from another warrior unit. So much effort and so many points are dedicated to keeping Necrons alive. You have to play a phalanx if you want to be safe, slow and boring. People complain about how cheesey being able to get back up is. We don't have lascannons, assault cannons, plasmacannons. The closest we got is a Heavy Destroyer and its 65 points. Dies as easily as a marine biker. Yes the army is tough but the high point values of their models means fewer units. Fewer units to contest loot/quarters, 360 points of warriors shooting into a 50 point Land Speeder. The speeder is toast but you just wasted 40 Rapid Fire shots on 1 target. I am beginning to rant. Bottom line, Necrons are more fragile than people give them credit for and require more patience and thought that any other meq army.

Everything you say is true.  I still fail to see how they're overcosted.  What you're really trying to say, and I couldn't agree with this more, is that Space Marines are waaaay undercosted.

Posted By DonkeyCannon on 05/18/2006 6:53 PM
Leadership 10 has a 1 in 6 chance of failing.

1 in 12, not 1 in 6. You don't fail on a 10.

Davey man, you are friggin' high if you think that necrons are overcosted at 18pts, compare 5 necron warriors at 90pts to 9 firewarriors and the necrons come out more than 2 to 1, or 5 necron warriors vs. 6 bolter marines, again the necron warriors come out 2 to 1 in a shooting battle.

Granted, the necron codex is thin and needs other things to beef it up but IMO on a model per model base necrons are the most effective per point model in the entire 40k universe, the fact that gauss weapons can pop a land raider or hammerhead is insane.

what's IB? I#ver never heard anything about Carnifexes sitting around doing nothing.
and what's RAW while we're at it?