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Posted By Anung Un Rama on 05/19/2006 8:05 AM
what's IB? I#ver never heard anything about Carnifexes sitting around doing nothing.
and what's RAW while we're at it?

IB: Instinctive Behavior - According to RAW, Carnifi must take IB test when outside Synapse.

RAW: Rules As Written - The only applicable laws in the 40k universe, many times contrary to certain peoples' idea of "common sense".

Common Sense: "The collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Einstein

Blue Loki, that should be a sticky. haha

Deathcompany. Scouts upgraded to Assault Marines with "feel no pain" by no points.

Okay, Marines are undercosted. I am compairing Necron MEQS to Space Marine MEQS. The Warriors are the bulk of a Necron army, the workhorses. And then everything else just enhances their killing/survival ability. The Monolith, the Spyders, Lords and all their gear. Probably the toughest Necron 1850 army to take out would have 1 Lord, Veil and Orb, Warscythe, 20 Warriors, 20 Warriors, 20 Warriors, 2 Monoliths, 2 Wraiths (separate units). Try phasing that out. But you only have 8 units that can target another unit. Taking squads of 10 would remedy this but they would get plasted below scoring too easily. However the 3 units do teleport everyround. The perfect phalanx. I think I heard someone call this list cheesey.

That army, aside from being incredibly boring to play and play against, lives on the Monoliths.  Lose them, and you are done.  Even then, against the first rate compeitive lists you would be out-shot, out-manuvered, and out-assaulted. 

Warriors are only undercosted on a model by model comparison.  Unit by unit, on the other hand, things change.  A 8 man las-plas Tac squad with a Pfist (175) vs. 10 Warriors.  Who's going to win that one?  At ranges over 24", the Marines win.  At ranges between 12" and 24", it's a tie except the Necrons suffer worse from failing a moral test.  At 12" the Marines charge and win.  The lack of squad special, heavy, and CC options really hurt, since against most armies (read: MEQ) those options do most of the heavy lifting.  Yes, Warriors are a nightmare compared to IG, Tau, and Ork troops choices.  But everybody knows the troops choices from those armies tend to suck, power armor in general is too cheap.

Warriors are not workhorses, they have this ugly tendancy not to actually DO anything vs. MEQ.  All they do is prevent you from losing to phase out.  Monoliths are undercosted, but undercosted to balance structural weaknesses in the list.  That having been said, Monoliths are one of the most heavily undercosted units in the game. 

DonkeyCannon - I hope you are joking that people "think" 2 monoliths are cheesy.

I've been told 2 Monoliths is not fair. That its too powerful a combo. The guy played deathwing with donkeycannons galore. I ripped him apart, as he couldnt stop my liths. Then everyone in the room wouldnt play that particular list after that. Its not cheese, its the way Necrons were meant to be played. People just have a hard time dealing with the Monolith stats.

I've been told 2 Monoliths is not fair. That its too powerful a combo. The guy played deathwing with donkeycannons galore. I ripped him apart, as he couldnt stop my liths. Then everyone in the room wouldnt play that particular list after that. Its not cheese, its the way Necrons were meant to be played. People just have a hard time dealing with the Monolith stats. Anyway bottom line I feel Marines cost slightly too little.

Couple of things.

1. Disagree on a few listed. Agree on Sisters, SM, others. (maybe not ridiculously undercosted, but undercosted). Death Company is ridiculous.

2. How about THREE Monoliths? Am I a maniac for even thinking about building a 1500 list with 3 Monoliths?\

3. I think bikes are far more undercosted these days than light skimmers with the ability to turbo boost. First turn, you drive like a maniac; your Sv 2+ or 3+ makes you tough against autocannnon, multilasers, and just in case that fails, your save can become inv!! Which is IMHO completely bonkers. Yes, light skimmers are a wee bit annoying, but bikes, well, they're nuts, IMHO.

"2. How about THREE Monoliths? Am I a maniac for even thinking about building a 1500 list with 3 Monoliths?\"

not a maniac so much. more of about to be a loner, with no one to play.

The Death Company is, by a huge margin, the most undercosted unit in the game. By a HUGE margin. Nothing else even comes close.

Think about it this way. With the new C:SM, the Death Company is treated as being a 110 point unit, at base, added to a Chaplain. That gives you D3+3 guys. Worst case, you get 4 at about 28 points each.

Think about that. This guy is 28 points, and he's basically identical to an Veteran Assault Sergeant (Terminator Honors). That model is 37 points. But, it gets worse. The Death Company gets Furious Charge, Feel No Pain, and is Fearless. It's impossible to describe how mean a whole unit with FNP is.

And that's worst case. Best case, the models are 18 points each. HALF the cost of a Veteran Assault Sergeant. You're paying HALF the price for a model that's probably twice as good (I'd argue that FC, FNP and Fearless doubles their effectiveness).

Now, factor in that you can get more from your army at 13 points, or 15 points... Or you can get them with Power Fists for 26 points or 30 points... It's even worse.

Now, granted, if you're not building a list to help your DC, and you give up a bunch of Terminators and Assault Marines, the value dilutes some. Even then, they're still undercosted.

I play Blood Angels, and I know how the DC goes. We're talking about a unit that's basically undercosted by more than 100%. There's just nothing like it in the game.

I love how everyone has picked on regular Space Marines that, while still undercosted (16 base points, IMO), remain overshadowed by the Chaos Space Marine. At 14pts per model with Ld 9 and the ability to match a regular Marine in points cost by taking Mark of Chaos Undivided, I think people should recognize that having a +1 Ld and the ability to reroll failed morale checks as a CSM player for just as many (or few, depending on you POV) points as an Imperial SM Player is a hideous advantage.

Just my 2 cents.

CK

Standard Chaos Space Marines can be wiped out due to sweeping advance if they do fail those leadership rolls. They also cannot regroup if under half strength. Marks of the Gods make them fearless but then they cost 19+ points apiece.

What I have been arguing on both of these threads is that the ability to regroup under half strength and not be sweeping advanced is major and those that play only space marines will not appreciate what I am trying to get across. How many times have you shot up a unit until its under half strength, then watch it fail its moral check and run to the table edge, its effectively destroyed if there are enough turns left for it to reach the table edge. Space Marines keep coming back for more. You have to kill them to the man if you want them to stop bothering you, or have a unit within 6 inches of it so it can't regroup. I lost a Necron Lord and 13 Warriors to a sweeping advance the other day....I lost them all to some Hormagaunts. WTF!!! Damn dice. The chaos undivided rerollable leadership 10 test is better than fearless as you don't have to take wounds if you lose combat. The last couple codicies have been bringing the other armies up to a level that can challenge space marines (Nids, Tau). By the time the rest of the codex's are out we will probably be in 5th edition and the first dex to come out will be Codex: Space Marines. And it will all start over again. A viscious circle.

I have a new one to add, Shrike and Shrikes wing! I don't play ravenguard but was looking over the rules for it again and that is an INSANE unit! Shrike: Infiltrate & Scout, meaning that you are pretty much guaranteed to be in HTH first turn with RENDING mastercrafted lightning claws.

The only reason it isn't totally insane is because you have the disadvantage 'flesh over steel' to play ravenwing

Hate to shift the topic from Necrons and Marines but since the topic is "most undercosted" knew I'd have to share. If someone else mentioned this before I didnt see it and I apologize for the repeat.

Kroot.

7 pts vs. a 6 pt guardsman. The one point buys you an increase in weapon skill and strength. It nets you a near-bolter level weapon and an additional attack. As well as another attack when you charge. You lose your already pathetic armor save. You gain a unit which be over half again as large a a unit of Guardman. You also gain Infiltrate, and additional increase in Cover Save while in specific flavors of terrain, and the ability to shoot twice as far through said terrain.

I sure wish every extra point I spent on a guy went as far as that one point goes in comparison.

to mysterice...agreed

Kroot aren't undercost when you take the entire list in to account, either as mercenaries (no long range heavy weapons) or Tau which have no cheap units or HTH units.

Posted By Abu on 05/18/2006 4:04 PM
Remember that Avatar is still S6 T6 W4 Monsterous Creature. A Daemon Prince with same stats (with exception of having 3+sv and only WS6) would cost 125 points. And Avatar still has those few special rules.
For that bargain cost of 80, I would almost always take him to Eldar army.

My question to this is...

If you take an avatar in every eldar army, what do you plan on doing with it?  Sure its a combat monster, but unless your opponent is stupid, it never makes it into combat.  Avatar moves forward 6 inches, your enemy moves backwards 6 inches and shoots you (maybe with the unit that moved back, maybe with another unit, maybe with both).  Regardless the avatar just doesn't see combat.  Daemon princes have the key ability of mobility.  They can be transported (if they are not monsterous), they can get demonic speed, or demonic flight.  They have the ability to get to hand to hand where they are useful while the avatar is, at best, simply a bullet sponge.

Without reading a single post, I'll say daemonettes.

Madboys, Massive Squiggoths, Wraithlord.

After reading the posts, Death Company.  No question.  I can't even bother thinking about marines as being undercosted as they are the measuring stick with which to measure everything else by.  Come on, you know its true.  That being said, I understand why so many people think this. 

@ DonkeyCannon, Shrike´s Wing is hardly undercosted and quite easy to deal with... You´ll struggle to kill their points back worth of enemies against a good opponent.

That was actually me not donkeycannon.

As for killing points back, if you get first turn you are guaranteed a first turn charge because of the infiltrate + 12" scout move. If not you are still most likely going to get it and even if you don't you are most likely going to destroy anyone that comes near you, Shrike & Wing are going to kill anything they get in to combat with. You can just walk up to a devastator squad and squish it to nothing, then move on to the next squad over and over, you should see 3 squads killed in the game with that unit.

  Death company is an assault marine (22pt) with a mark of Khorn (5 pt) + whatever fnp would be on an aspiring champion (10?).

So 37 points, 15 points undercosted if you use average for chaplain cost (110/5).

@happypants: still, 41 points for 3+ save and one wound...and if I could be bothered to find my Codex I'm pretty sure they're stuck at I4 except for Shrike. Shrike's a decent little monster, barring getting cold-cocked by a power fist, but I'm not sold on his boys. I don't doubt that, given a bit of finesse and an error on an opponent's part they could completely go nuts. (3rd edition I once had eight ws3 hormies rub out an entire platoon of IG - swept one squad for a 40" move, caught another falling back, someone at the Departmendo Munitorium had been feeding the Russ duds and the officer was thus desert.)

necron wraiths, S6 I6 3+INV 12"move.

Argh. Threadcromancy!

Yeah, I just noticed it when point costs from the old eldar codex came up...

Greets
Schepp himself

Hedgehog wrote:Bloodletters are far too cheap for what you get - power armour, S5, power weapon, 5+ inv save and the ability to be summoned straight into charge ragnge - for only 26 points?

Bloodletters don't exist right now, except from An'Grath (spelling?).
When they DID exist, their power was evened out by the fact that the whole unit could just disappear after taking a few wounds.

Eric

snooggums wrote:

Posted By DonkeyCannon on 05/18/2006 6:53 PM
Leadership 10 has a 1 in 6 chance of failing.

1 in 12, not 1 in 6. You don't fail on a 10.

Basing it on a straight 10 Ld, you're both wrong. If we're rounding to the closest whole #, then Donkeycannon is right.
They fail on 2 in 11.
You cannot roll a "1" on 2d6, and they fail on 11 and 12.
That comes up to a little bit over 1.09 in 6.


Eric

On the one hand, its necromancy...on the other hand, I burn to speak the truth!

Scarabs. If this isn't self evident, you've never seen them used well.