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In the spirit of the threads abounding regarding balancing Eldar units, here's one about the battlesuit everyone loves to hate: the XV104 Riptide.

I don't want it nerfed into the ground. I want it to be useful for its intended purpose, but not so stupidly OP as to automatically make you That Frelling Guy for taking one, or especially more than one. I know a lot of folks would prefer for it to be a walker, but I'm not addressing that particular issue this time - there have been plenty of threads about that already.

That said, I think I may have a different idea of what its role is than most: to me, the Riptide isn't intended to sit back and rain flaming death from outside the range of all but the longest guns. It's meant to provide heavy fire support up close and to act as a bullet sponge, soaking up fire so the squishier elements (Crisis Suits, Stealth Suits, Fire Warriors) don't die. With that in mind, here's yet another stab at fixing it:

XV104 Riptide - 180ppm
WS2 BS3 S5 T6 A3 W5 I2 Ld 9 Sv 2+/5++, Jet Pack Infantry (EDIT: Restored Shas'vre statline. No more AP2, no more need for A1)
Wargear: Heavy Burst Cannon, Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster, Riptide Shield Generator, Nova Reactor, Multi-Tracker, Blacksun Filter (EDIT: should have had the multi-tracker and blacksun filter from the get-go. I fouled that one up.)
Special Rules: Move Through Cover, Extremely Bulky, Nova Hazard
Nova Hazard: A squad of XV104 Riptides may never be joined by Independent Characters under any circumstances whatsoever. (Save a specific rule that overrides this. EDIT to reflect new FAQ/Errata for O'Vesa).
Options: May add up to two additional Riptide Shas'Vres - 180pts each
May take up to two shielded missile drones (stats as per codex) per Riptide: 25ppm
May replace the Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster with a Twin-Linked Plasma Rifle: free
May replace the Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster with a Twin-Linked Smart Missile System: 10pts
May replace the Heavy Burst Cannon with a Riptide Cyclic Ion Raker: 10 pts
May take up to two items from the Support Systems List: (Costs and restrictions as per Codex)

Heavy Burst Cannon: R30 S6 AP5, Heavy 10 --OR-- R30 S6 AP4, Heavy 15, Rending, Nova-Charge (EDIT: increase to S6, nova-charged profile always has AP4)
Riptide Cyclic Ion Raker: R24 S7 AP4, Heavy 6 (EDIT: slightly different from Ghostkeel version)
R24 S8 AP3, Heavy 1, Large Blast, Gets Hot (EDIT: gains AP3 when overcharged)
R24 S9 AP2, Ordnance 1, Large Blast, Gets Hot, Nova-Charge, Long Cycle Time
Long Cycle Time: This fire mode may never be used with Interceptor.

Riptide Shield Generator: A model with a Riptide Shield Generator has a 5+ invulnerable save.
Nova Reactor: At the beginning of the Movement Phase, a model with a Nova Reactor may choose to roll 1d6. On a roll of 1 or 2, it suffers a wound that ignores all armor and cover saves. Invulnerable saves and Feel No Pain may be used normally. On a roll of a 3 or higher, the model may select exactly one benefit from the choices below, which shall last until the beginning of the controlling player's next movement phase. (EDIT: nova reactor no longer destroys itself - not needed, most abusive options are gone)
Primary Weapon: The model may use the Nova-Charge profiles for its primary weapons
Ripple Fire: The model may fire its secondary weapon twice, counting as a single weapon for all purposes
Quick Escape: When making a Thrust Move, the model rolls 4d6 instead of the normal 2d6.


Change Summary from original version:

Reverted to Shas'vre statline - not an MC anymore, 3 S5 attacks scare... Guardsmen?
HBC reverted to S6. S5 was an overnerf.
RCIR Overcharge profile boosted to AP3.
Put the multi-tracker back in the Wargear listing. Oops, I goofed. This never should have been missing.
Put the Blacksun Filter back in the Wargear listing. Oops, I need more caffeine.

"R24 S8 AP4, Heavy 1, Large Blast, Gets Hot "

This can be AP3.

"R18 S9 AP2, Ordnance 1, Large Blast, Gets Hot, Nova-Charge, Long Cycle Time "

This can be R 24.

"Cyclic Ion Raker: R24 S7 AP4, Heavy 6 "

This can R 36 for anti-tank duty.

A1 is a nice change.

"Heavy Burst Cannon: R30 S5 AP5, Heavy 10 --OR-- R30 S5 AP5, Heavy 15, Rending, Nova-Charge "

This can be R 48, to encourage it over the ion weapon. It can also go to AP 4 on nova charge so you can kill Wulfen.

Martel732 wrote:
"R24 S8 AP4, Heavy 1, Large Blast, Gets Hot "

This can be AP3.

"R18 S9 AP2, Ordnance 1, Large Blast, Gets Hot, Nova-Charge, Long Cycle Time "

This can be R 24.

"Cyclic Ion Raker: R24 S7 AP4, Heavy 6 "

This can R 36 for anti-tank duty.

A1 is a nice change.

"Heavy Burst Cannon: R30 S5 AP5, Heavy 10 --OR-- R30 S5 AP5, Heavy 15, Rending, Nova-Charge "

This can be R 48, to encourage it over the ion weapon. It can also go to AP 4 on nova charge so you can kill Wulfen.

The CIR is AP4 because the version in the Codex currently is - it's a weapon upgrade for the Ghostkeel. And given what the Ghostkeel can do, *it* should not have an AP3 CIR. I suppose they could be two different weapons, though.

ETA: Also note it's Infantry, not an MC, so no more melee AP2, no more one-shot-at-S10, no more HoW. It's actually no better than a Wraithguard in CC now (other than better armor/wounds), and actually worse because WG are WS4/I4.

AP 3 is fine. AP 2 is the killer, because that makes lots of expensive stuff come off the board fast. AP 3? Marines are 14 ppm. Windriders 27 ppm. Immortals somewhere in between. AP 3 is fine. In fact, we need more AP 3 and less AP 2. But we need that AP 2 to be effective vs MCs as well.

The current heavy burst cannon getting hot on nova charge is so stupid. That just guarantees the ion gun as less risky.

Ive always thought Broadsides should be T5 3+, and Riptides T6 3+.

Its mostly the same tech, just bigger and tougher.

I see a Krak missile having a good chance of taking a chunk out of either, but not IDing the Broadside.

Bharring wrote:
Ive always thought Broadsides should be T5 3+, and Riptides T6 3+.

Its mostly the same tech, just bigger and tougher.

I see a Krak missile having a good chance of taking a chunk out of either, but not IDing the Broadside.

2+ armor is a lot less awesome if your killer gun only goes 24". Just ask the DK about getting close with 2+ armor. You can't blow up all your opponent's guns from a safe distance, either.

The more 2+ there is in the game, the more AP2 the game needs.

The more 2+5++ with great T and lots of W there is, the more spammable AP2 needs to be.

The Riptide feels heavily armored, but not as armored as a Terminator. Tougher, yes, better armored, no.

Bharring wrote:
The more 2+ there is in the game, the more AP2 the game needs.

The more 2+5++ with great T and lots of W there is, the more spammable AP2 needs to be.

The Riptide feels heavily armored, but not as armored as a Terminator. Tougher, yes, better armored, no.

I don't disagree, but the Tau people would likely not swallow this. Just as most Eldar will not swallow windriders going to 4+. I just accept the worthlessness of terminators. Terminators are one of my favorite examples of fluff fail. Utter and complete fluff fail. They're bowling pins for Riptides.

T6 with 5W, 3+/5++ and the option for 5+ FNP is still really durable. Especially since most things that you need to kill it are AP2 anyway. Lowering the save from 2+ to 3+ opens a small window for small arms fire to get in a wound or 2.
And I think most Tau players who know what Grav is would be fine with having a 3+ armour rather than a 2+. Just like most reasonable Eldar players would be ok with 4+ armour Windriders.

Most suits are 3+ and look like the same tech, Broadsides and Riptides should be as well. And definitely T5 for the Broadsides, maybe 3W.

--

The riptide would be twice as vulnerable to small arms fire. It means you can engage one with things not designed specifically to kill one twice as well.

I'd gladly have broadsides be 3+ if they were made T5 just so they couldn't be ID'd by missiles. Even better if they gave them an extra wound.

I don't have a good answer for riptides. I do like the idea of changing the weapons around a bit, which may help fix them. I have always been a fan of the Heavy Burst Cannon and rarely take the Ion Cannon option.

Good point on creating the need for spammable AP2. That's a problem. My thought was that dropping to 3+ makes it a little too vulnerable to radium weapons and massed light arms fire, but I could probably be persuaded otherwise.

My thinking is that the Ghostkeel, with its cover hax, is designed to soak up lascannons, krak missiles and other such long-ranged, heavy firepower - but with T5/3+, is more vulnerable to massed bolters and bolter-class weapons. On the other hand, the Riptide should be highly resistant to that kind of thing - but have more limited defenses against heavy weapons (which is why the 3++ is now gone). Though, again, I could be convinced otherwise.

What about T6/W6/3+?

Ok, so, modified versions of the weapons:

Heavy Burst Cannon
R36 S5 AP5 Heavy 10
R36 S5 AP4 Heavy 15, Rending, Nova-Charge

Riptide Cyclic Ion Raker
R24 S7 AP4 Heavy 6
R24 S8 AP3 Heavy 1, Large Blast, Gets Hot (Overcharge)
R24 S9 AP2 Ordnance 1, Large Blast, Gets Hot, Nova-Charge, Long Cycle Time

Now the HBC has a bit better range and base AP4 when nova-charged, the CIR is slightly better than the Ghostkeel version, but ranges are still short enough to force the Riptide into plasma/grav/shuricannon range, and maybe even assault range.

I think that's perfectly fair.

Why WS1/A1 when these are all veteran xv8 pilots? Might as well follow the Shas'vre statline.

I fail to see the issue with the current HBC. Your burst tide is effectively a squad of 3 HB cents without psychic support. It is effectively a cold star suit without the ability to fly, and how often do you see those? Plus another s5 weapon for Tau seems malicious.

As for the ion gun, why not just use the hammerhead gun, with a different nova style. . This is a heavy combat mech, meant to have heavy guns. Not a slightly heavier ghostkeel without cloaking systems.
Rng 60" S7 ap3 heavy 3
Rng 60" s8 ap3 large blast heavy 1
Rng 60" S8 ap3 large blast, gets hot heavy d3 (roll for gets hot once, you already passed Nova)

Charging for the SMS is silly. It's not like Tau are lacking ignore cover S5AP5.

Losing MC is fine, but the Nova nerf seems unnecessary/heavy- handed. Might as well make it once per game ability at that point. And Nova Hazard once again just feels malicious. Can we give something similar to cents?
I do like the idea of a bunker with 3 riptides in it though.

Because the Riptide shouldn't have multiple AP 2 melee attacks.

I didn't see that. Heavy burst cannons is fine at S6.

StarHunter25 wrote:
Why WS1/A1 when these are all veteran xv8 pilots? Might as well follow the Shas'vre statline.

I fail to see the issue with the current HBC. Your burst tide is effectively a squad of 3 HB cents without psychic support. It is effectively a cold star suit without the ability to fly, and how often do you see those? Plus another s5 weapon for Tau seems malicious.

As for the ion gun, why not just use the hammerhead gun, with a different nova style. . This is a heavy combat mech, meant to have heavy guns. Not a slightly heavier ghostkeel without cloaking systems.
Rng 60" S7 ap3 heavy 3
Rng 60" s8 ap3 large blast heavy 1
Rng 60" S8 ap3 large blast, gets hot heavy d3 (roll for gets hot once, you already passed Nova)

Charging for the SMS is silly. It's not like Tau are lacking ignore cover S5AP5.

Losing MC is fine, but the Nova nerf seems unnecessary/heavy- handed. Might as well make it once per game ability at that point. And Nova Hazard once again just feels malicious. Can we give something similar to cents?
I do like the idea of a bunker with 3 riptides in it though.

With the loss of MC, going to a shas'vre statline is probably fine: at that point it'd only be as effective in melee as a Crisis Shas'vre, which is scary to... well, Rhinos. So yeah, that's probably fine.

Ok, good thought on the HBC. I know massed S6/7 is generally an issue because it kills far too many things, but point, S5 probably isn't enough here with as much as Tau get. So, revise all those profiles above to read "S6" vice "S5".

As for the ion weapon, I specifically avoided the long-range versions because the combination of T6/2+ and better-than-heavy-bolter range is why people complain about Riptides being immortal: you can't get close enough for anything with enough volume, and half the time they even outrange lascannons and missile launchers.

Charging for the SMS is mostly because it draws so much hate, and because the fusion/plasma invites getting close, once again, which mitigates the "damn thing can't be killed" complaint.

Nova Hazard: my thought was that there might be abusive combinations possible if you could join with Commanders, Ethereals, etc. Maybe that's not necessary, but the last thing I want is to open Yet Another Frelling Abuse Vector. There are enough of those already. Also, the Nova Reactor's shield buff is gone, so maybe the disable bit isn't needed - however, you can now take invulnerable saves against nova failures, and it only dies on two consecutive fails, not a single fail. I'm divided on that, and I'd like to hear what other folks think.

I really don't think riptides need a nerf. Yes they are strong, but they need marker support to be effective and their offence is not that strong for their points cost.

What makes them over the top is the riptide wing. Being able to fire twice and reroll nova reactor is too strong. Strip this formation and they wouldn't be nearly as potent..

I should point out that even with the riptide wing, tau are still behind the other top tier armies. You can take nothing but riptide wings and marker platforms and you would still lose eldar / marines / demons.

You need to define what 'irreparably damaged' means in game terms, and also why is that a thing? Does the random dice roll that can hurt you that leads to your weapon randomly getting hot and also hurting you really need a third way to hurt you?

Losing MC is fine, but the 'tide should still have MtC, it's larger than most ruins. Traversing them shouldn't be an issue.

It does still have MtC, actually. The HBC lost Gets Hot. The IA/CIR still has it, because it's a feature of all ion weapons.

As far as the nova reactor goes, my original thought was "two consecutive failures, and the nova reactor never works again", to discourage abuse - but then I also diked out the 3++ option. So, yeah, maybe that can go.

jade_angel wrote:
It does still have MtC, actually. The HBC lost Gets Hot. The IA/CIR still has it, because it's a feature of all ion weapons.

As far as the nova reactor goes, my original thought was "two consecutive failures, and the nova reactor never works again", to discourage abuse - but then I also diked out the 3++ option. So, yeah, maybe that can go.

Why can every other suit in the tau codex except for the riptide buy a 4++? If you remove the option for 3++ nova charge then you need to be able to buy a baseline upgrade to 4++.

lusciifi wrote:
I really don't think riptides need a nerf. Yes they are strong, but they need marker support to be effective and their offence is not that strong for their points cost.

What makes them over the top is the riptide wing. Being able to fire twice and reroll nova reactor is too strong. Strip this formation and they wouldn't be nearly as potent..

I should point out that even with the riptide wing, tau are still behind the other top tier armies. You can take nothing but riptide wings and marker platforms and you would still lose eldar / marines / demons.

Yeah, they do. Their durability is completely out of line for a model of that cost. And the ion accelerator is one of the most broken things in the game, as it single-handedly makes all 2+ infantry useless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

lusciifi wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
It does still have MtC, actually. The HBC lost Gets Hot. The IA/CIR still has it, because it's a feature of all ion weapons.

As far as the nova reactor goes, my original thought was "two consecutive failures, and the nova reactor never works again", to discourage abuse - but then I also diked out the 3++ option. So, yeah, maybe that can go.

Why can every other suit in the tau codex except for the riptide buy a 4++? If you remove the option for 3++ nova charge then you need to be able to buy a baseline upgrade to 4++.

No. It's too durable otherwise, and we end up in the exact same place. Units die. You are going to take losses. Learn to get used to it instead of being immortal out at 60". Those suits get 4++ because Tau OP. MCs shouldn't be getting iron halos. They have multiple wounds and T6+ already.

Martel732 wrote:

lusciifi wrote:
I really don't think riptides need a nerf. Yes they are strong, but they need marker support to be effective and their offence is not that strong for their points cost.

What makes them over the top is the riptide wing. Being able to fire twice and reroll nova reactor is too strong. Strip this formation and they wouldn't be nearly as potent..

I should point out that even with the riptide wing, tau are still behind the other top tier armies. You can take nothing but riptide wings and marker platforms and you would still lose eldar / marines / demons.

Yeah, they do. Their durability is completely out of line for a model of that cost. And the ion accelerator is one of the most broken things in the game, as it single-handedly makes all 2+ infantry useless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

lusciifi wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
It does still have MtC, actually. The HBC lost Gets Hot. The IA/CIR still has it, because it's a feature of all ion weapons.

As far as the nova reactor goes, my original thought was "two consecutive failures, and the nova reactor never works again", to discourage abuse - but then I also diked out the 3++ option. So, yeah, maybe that can go.

Why can every other suit in the tau codex except for the riptide buy a 4++? If you remove the option for 3++ nova charge then you need to be able to buy a baseline upgrade to 4++.

No. It's too durable otherwise, and we end up in the exact same place. Units die. You are going to take losses. Learn to get used to it instead of being immortal out at 60". Those suits get 4++ because Tau OP. MCs shouldn't be getting iron halos. They have multiple wounds and T6+ already.

And yet none of this is enough to let tau win tournaments. If you are going to nerf tau mc's then you need to look at quite a bit of broken units from other factions first.

You say the IA is the most broken weapon in the game and yet its terrible against most competitive lists. Terrible against knights/vehicles, terrible against bike/wolf-stars, terrible against gladius, terrible against demons.

You say its this unkillable behemoth and yet its nothing compared to what the other factions can bring. 3++ is nothing compaired to the 2++ REROLLABLE that demons can bring to the table.

On top of all of this, it cant (rightfuly so) stand toe to toe with melee focused units, meaning you are going to concede huge parts of the board to keep them safe.


Just one final point to consider. If the IA is so powerful and negates every 2+ unit in the game, then why do most tournament list take the HBC?

Other armies absolutely also have broken cheese; this thread is not about those armies. A fartload of threads have already addressed Eldar to a point. Wanna address Daemons or Marines? Fork another thread for those - Daemons especially, because they basically have "broken cheese" and "worthless garbage", with precious little in between.

Also: what sucks about the IA is the *combination* of range, AP2 large blast, Interceptor and being on a durable, mobile platform. Any of these alone is not broken. Together, it is. EWO+IA makes drop pods tricky and deep-striking jump packs almost useless. TWC can survive it, centstars can survive it. Nothing in the BA or GK arsenals really can, and even DA are in some trouble other than their powerful Lion's Blade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

lusciifi wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
It does still have MtC, actually. The HBC lost Gets Hot. The IA/CIR still has it, because it's a feature of all ion weapons.

As far as the nova reactor goes, my original thought was "two consecutive failures, and the nova reactor never works again", to discourage abuse - but then I also diked out the 3++ option. So, yeah, maybe that can go.

Why can every other suit in the tau codex except for the riptide buy a 4++? If you remove the option for 3++ nova charge then you need to be able to buy a baseline upgrade to 4++.

They can because all of them are vulnerable to instant death (T4, or T5 for the Ghostkeel) and/or have no other invuln save (Stormsurge). The Riptide has T6, so no double-outs, has a 5++ base, and, to boot, can still get FNP, and has 2+ armor.

The shield generator is marginal on everything but Commanders and Stormsurges anyway. Commanders have all the business in the world having some survivability, as the big cheese. They can be as tough as a Chapter Master, they pay for it. (Stimiridium Commander == Iron Hands CM, Bike, Artificer Armor, Sons of Medusa Strike Force, give or take.) They can outshoot a Chapter Master, sure, but he can outpunch almost anything, so I'd call that mostly fair most of the time against most opponents.

If all these changes went though you would almost guaranteed lose your riptides to drop pod grav with no ability to counter play.

Even without nerfs EWO + IA riptides rarely make their points back for me. I understand AP2 is scary but the riptide is not as OP as people make it out to be.

lusciifi wrote:
If all these changes went though you would almost guaranteed lose your riptides to drop pod grav with no ability to counter play.

Even without nerfs EWO + IA riptides rarely make their points back for me. I understand AP2 is scary but the riptide is not as OP as people make it out to be.

Except it is. You need to bring VERY specific units to have a hope against the Riptide. Interestingly, those units are the exact units you listed off as the reason why the Riptide "isn't that good". The reality is that the Riptide has forced every other unit out of competitive play. BA, CSM, and Orks have nothing. We just lose. We can't kill the Riptide, and we can't survive its fire.

"drop pod grav with no ability to counter play. "

You mean skyhammer .Because regular drop grav can't get the job done. I have that in the BA, and it sucks.

Martel732 wrote:

lusciifi wrote:
If all these changes went though you would almost guaranteed lose your riptides to drop pod grav with no ability to counter play.

Even without nerfs EWO + IA riptides rarely make their points back for me. I understand AP2 is scary but the riptide is not as OP as people make it out to be.

Except it is. You need to bring VERY specific units to have a hope against the Riptide. Interestingly, those units are the exact units you listed off as the reason why the Riptide "isn't that good". The reality is that the Riptide has forced every other unit out of competitive play. BA, CSM, and Orks have nothing. We just lose. We can't kill the Riptide, and we can't survive its fire.

"drop pod grav with no ability to counter play. "

You mean skyhammer .Because regular drop grav can't get the job done. I have that in the BA, and it sucks.

Then suggest buffs to BA not nerfs to the riptide. I have not met an opponent in a tournament that has had issue killing my riptides yet.

And again, all of the lists I see use HBC in riptide wings over IA+EWO. Fact is, volume of fire outweighs a single pie plate against most strong lists.

Its a fallacy to suggest that orks, csm and BA suddenly become godtier if you nerf the riptide into the ground.

We become more viable. That's all.

There is no reasonable buff to BA that lets them survive the ion accelerator. Of course, that used to be true of SW until TWC. Pepple keep asking about BA buffs, but I think the age of the meq is over, and BA is a list full of meqs. We have no cents, no TWC, no free transports to make everything better.

How are the Riptides dying? Because conventional Imperial heavy weapons are basically useless, as is melta.

Melta does get the job done, if you have enough of it. Trouble is, the only Imperial army that does have enough of it is Sisters, and they lack ways to get it there, along with their other acknowledged weaknesses. The only armies that can get enough melta close enough, in my experience, are Tau and Eldar; maybe Dark Eldar sometimes, but theirs is S6 (or not Melta, but against MCs, blasters are fine.)

The IA, by the way, isn't actually all that good against Rhino-spam lists, but it excels against drop pods or other deep strikers, especially with the Drone Net to allow Intercepting markerlights, too. (There are a few other inefficient ways to get Interceptor on markerlights, but the Drone Net is easily the most effective.)

In fact, against deep striking gaggles, it's pretty much unreasonable: "Oh hi. Die," unless the scatter is bad or you get bitten by Gets Hot.

My Riptides do die to being drowned in saves if I operate up close, though - which I usually do, because its job isn't so much to kill stuff, as it is to keep my Crisis/Stealth squads from having to soak up a zillion shots. Crisis Suits, after all, aren't all that tough: it's easy to spend 200 points on something only a little more durable than eight Marines. (That has hella firepower, granted - that's why they aren't broken. They hit like a pissed-off missile, but aren't terribly hard to kill.)

Martel732 wrote:

How are the Riptides dying? Because conventional Imperial heavy weapons are basically useless, as is melta.

Lets see..

1. Psychic shriek spam.
2. CSM cabal controlling my own units.
3. Deathstars, screamer/TWC/bikes, take your pick.
4. Grav spam
5. WK's, wraith guard, really anything with D
6. Anything with a lot of vehicles, especially IK.